AR15/870 CQB Shotgun

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

I just discovered "thehighroad.org" several days ago, and would like to express my excitment and enthusiasm.

I too have a burning interest in shotguns, and have felt for some time that there has been something missing with respect to the ultimate CQB shotgun. So several months ago I began working hard to develop something that might fill the void.

I initiated several threads on various internet forums that I followed to try and solicit feedback from the general shotgun community (for example: AR15.com development process)...I wish I would have known about this place then!

So...here is where I am at:

I am just getting ready to create my master molds for the investment casting process....before I do, I would love to hear what you all think would make it better!

Thank you and take care...

BrobeeBiter

 

[Dave McCracken]

First, welcome aboard.

Nice, but....

I'm a little skeptical about "Ultimate" anything.

A couple notes....

That stock will not work well with certain sighting systems, including the plain bead that STILL is a darn good setup for close and sudden crisis management. Something like a standard stock with a shorter LOP should be an option. Good pads on either are a must have. With the right sight setup, that AR style stock will perform well.

Pic rails on the bottom and both sides of the extension for lights and so on makes sense.

If you're making Trigger Groups instead of obtaining them from Remington, add 1/8" or so to trigger width for better control, and while you're at it put a bump in the rear of the trigger to reduce overtravel. And get that trigger to a SAFE and clean sub 4 lb pull.

Also, find a low power shotgun scope, like that expensive Leopold 3X, and a suitable mount, possibly QD, that keeps zero for slug accuracy.

I recommend QD studs for a sling both on the bottom and side for versatility.

HTH....

 

[Mr. Black]

Unfortunately a good portion of us live in the "there is no need for a short scattergun" land

But I like your work, that's very slick.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's a good system the way it is, imho.


if you want to put lights on it in a QD fashion, then making a pumphandle with rails is the way to go.


how much will this be going for?

 

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello again!

Dave M: I agree with many of the things you wrote in your reply:

-"ultimate" is a pretty strong adjective in a world where things are often less distinct than a guy might like. Everybody's needs and preferences are going to be at least slightly different (more likely wildly different!) and in describing the system as "the ultimate" I'll confess heartily to a strong dose of my own perspective. Other perspectives are important, and that is why frank and honest discussion has such a high value for me.

- Sighting System. Early on into the development process, I discovered first hand how much my CQB system sucked with the mother of all (and all time reigning K.I.S.S champion) sighting systems...the mighty bead. For those reading, the problem is that your shoulder is anatomically alot lower than your eye (medical discovery of the century for me!) and with the stock directly in line with the barrel (awesome for muzzle rise and recoil control), it is just not possible to sight directly down the barrel. some sort of elevated sighting system would be required to use the adapter the way you see it. My thoughts on the sighting system resulted in the full length rail. I'm going to make one that only runs the length of the receiver, but I like the full length one better) Consideration of a sighting system with use of the stock is extremely important.

- Trigger groups: Thus far I have limited my efforts to the development of the stock adapter and rail system, They fit on a stock 870, the only modification being that the rail system is more secure if you drill and tap a hole in the top of the receiver (but not required) I have replaced many of my 870 express trigger groups with ones from wingmasters and these seem to work well. I do think that limiting the over travel is a good idea.

- Sling: a hole for a swivel will be drilled into the side of the stock adapter, and I really like the GG&G front sling mount that screws on behind the magazine cap.


Andrew W and Dave M:

- Lights and such: Andrew: was this what you had in mind?

I've thought about grinding one of these out, but figured I should walk before I run and that it might be a little in the overkill department. I think that the magtube is a pretty good spot for a light, or possibly an attachment that goes on the full length rail. Feedback on what you guys prefer would be greatly appreciated!


Mr. Black:

- Short Barreled Shotguns: Welcome to the world of tradeoffs! The only thing I gain with the shorter barrel on the gun as depicted is associated with maneuverability and handling charracteristics. This comes at a pretty hefty price too: massive muzzle flash (depending on your perspective, this might be an added benefit!), louder report, more dangerous (it is easier to get your hand infront of the barrel...yikes!), fewer choke options, decreased muzzle velocity, regulatory headaches in the US, etc etc etc. However all is not lost...the CQB stock adapter and rail mounting system as seen in the picture attach as easily to an 18.5 or 20 inch 870.

Your feedback is extremely appreciated!

edited to add: Retail Price: While it is a little soon to know, I am shooting for a retail price of $100-$115.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

 

[Correia]

Very interesting.

Welcome to THR Brobee.

I can see this have some good marketing potential to PDs that already have 870s in inventory.

Since you are using an AR stock, I think you should use a multi position type so that they can set the stock up for the individual user, or trim it down if they are wearing body armor.

A rubber butt pad would be great also. The flat metal or plastic works fine on a AR with no recoil, but it wouldn't be pleasant with slugs.

Something you may want to take a look at as an accesory, (I'll try to describe this as best as I can) make a side saddle/iron sight set up. Only instead of it being a side saddle, have it be a Top saddle. It can run the length of the weapon, holds shells (sideways) that can be pulled out and single loaded through the port, and have a basic set of iron sights at the front and the rear. The height of the shells above the receiver, with the irons on top will put it at about the correct height for a good cheek weld with a straight line stock.

However don't patent the Top Saddle because I'm already using one for a shotgun that I'm designing.

 

[BrobeeBiter]

Correia....

-El-MEGA-SEXY-idea: Your top-saddle/sight combination idea now has me sitting here with a massive, uncontrollable grin as I contemplate what a seriously cool idea that is! Rest assured, I have no intention of patenting it...what are your thoughts if I built some with the intent of having it available as an accessory for my CQB 870?

-Rubber Butt Pad: I originally thought this would be required, however having fired over 500 rounds of slug through my test gun, I have to confess that the collapisble AR style stock tames the perceived recoil somewhat. I have no trouble or discomfort shooting
full house loads, and have had some small statured people try it out and report similar feelings. I'm going to have to do more research (ie: have myself and others play with the gun a bunch more)...


-Telescoping Stock: A telescoping stock was the whole reason I wanted to build the adapter...it is extremely useful for shooters of all sizes, as well as T-shirt-brobee vs. winter-coat-Brobee. It is my opinion that a telescoping stock has huge advantages over a folding stock and significant advantages over a fixed stock.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

how much will this cost?


is there any way i can get in on the beta testing?

 

[hilljack22]

FYI...

Just Recently saw in "Gun World" Magazine a writeup of FN's new combat shotgun which used the AR collapsable stock and pistol grip, A2 sights and a piccanty (sp?) rail. I believe it was the May or June issue.

 

[Correia]

Brobee, go for it. The gun that I was going to use this for is still a ways off. I'm currently working on a rifle design, that the prototype is only about 50% completed. So my shotgun is probably not going to have an existing prototype until some time in 2004. Go for it. I think it would be a seriously cool accesory.

Maybe with the straight line stock rubber might not be as neccesary. I just like rubber more for how it sticks to your shoulder than for recoil absorbtion.

If you need beta testers let us know. Dave here has forgotten more about shotguns than most of us will ever know, and I'm a good beta tester if you need a big fellas perspective.

 

[hksw]

What folding front sight on the full rail is that on the first pic?

 

[CRUSHER]

Looks like a great idea for some applicatons

 

[Gordon]

I would just make the stock adapter and rail and buy the best existing parts available to make it up. Funny how profile of old Choate pistol grip stock if overlaid on your idea is not that much different. Thats why I went to Choate stock on my 870 and 1100 3 gun match guns in the 80's: to have commonalllity to AR (and HK).

 

[Cameron Lamont]

Do you mean something like this one:

You can find it on the FN Website:

FN USA


Regards,
Cameron

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

the 870 AR will be quite a bit less than that, though.

 

[Cameron Lamont]

... yep.

You get what you pay for.

Cameron

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

true. with the defender, you get an aluminum framed gun that won't last as long as an 870.

 

[Cameron Lamont]

That is funny I remember people used to say that about aluminum frame 1911s...

and Japanese cars.


Cameron

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

honestly, i'm not that fond of either the 870 or the defender. the lifters cover the loading port and the bolt release is in a funny location.


if someone made a mossberg with a rotary bolt, it'd be the bees knees.

hrrm. would it be possible to put an smbidextrous SKS style safety on the AR/870?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Brobeebiter, looks good, and I'll be glad to try out the prototype and field test it.

The offers good to any other shotgun designers. Contact me here.

Some KAR style stocks have intermediate positions,IIRC. One of those can let the shooter tailor the LOP to the shooter and situation. Example, shooting with or without body armor.

 

[BrobeeBiter]

Hello All!

- Cameron L: I became aware of the FN Tactical Shotgun about a third of the way into my development efforts. As my original motivation was based on my impression that what I wanted to accomplish was not available, this put a pretty quick halt to development while I tried to learn a bit about the FN. When I learned that the FN was based on the winchester, I was pretty saddened, as it is my opinion that the 1300 is not as good a gun as the 870 (I was a defender owner for 7 years before consciously and purpously switching to the 870, and I'm very happy I did). I was even more discouraged when I discovered that I would have to buck up for the whole shotgun (ie: an adapter would not be offered), and that it was going to be as expensive as it was. Bottom line: as a consumer, based on my personal preference towards the 870 as a shotgun, I was not prepared to shell out the coin required to pick up a souped up 1300. I resumed my development effort. Having played with my test guns a bunch, the full length picatinny rail is growing on me in a big way, and I feel like what I currently have is, again only in my opinion, better than the FN Tactical Shotgun.

One last thing...there is an advantage to the FN gun over mine: the geometry of the FN tactical shotgun's approach to the mounting of an AR style stock is such that any AR style stock can be mounted...ie: A2 type stocks that require the lock ring profile below the buffer tube. To reduce the amount of height required to address the sight alignment geometry issues and for recoil/handling properties, I deliberately chose to make my adapter without this profile. This was a sacrafice, as some people will want to mount fixed AR stocks rather than the collaspible styles.

- hksw: The flip up front sight is manufactered by Knight Armament Corporation, product # 99051. While expensive, it is very well made and works quite well. The only thing that I think would make it better would be if the shroud protecting the front sight came all the way around the top of the sight, as it does in the PRI flip up sight/gas block for the AR-15. For those who are interested, the rear flip up sight is an ARMS #40.

- Andrew W: too soon to know on the cost, but I am targeting a retail price of $100-$115 for the adapter...the stock would be extra (I am working on a deal to buy just the buffer tubes and the collapsible stocks minus the spring and the buffer...you should not have to pay for what you don't need!). I am currently in the process of pinning down manufacturing costs, and expect to have a much better idea within the next couple of weeks.

SKS Style safety: I am not familiar with this particular device...do you have a photograph?

- Dave M: ...if I had a nickel for everyone who has offered to beta test the adapter, I could probably quit my day job. I sincerely appreciate the offer...perhaps once I have my first production run complete we can discuss the possibility of a product review.

Take care...

BrobeeBiter

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Brobee: It's a trigger blocking safety that's a little lever that's mounted at the rear of the triger guard. down is fire, up is safe.

SKS rifles all have them.

 

[hksw]

Thanks for the info BB.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'm mostly asking about the SKS safety becaue i want one of these stocks for my mossberg. bad.

 

[natedog]

Oh Yay! Now we can hang crap on our shotguns too!