Andrew Wyatt
Member
Thank you for contributing so VERY much to the conversation.
AR15/870 CQB Shotgun
- Thread starter BrobeeBiter
- Start date
- Status
BrobeeBiter
Member
Hello All!
Small Update: I used some of my prototype parts to put together an 18.5 inch gun to photograph:
I'm getting both guns/stock adapters/rails powdercoated sometime late this week, and will post some pictures then. I'm also going to try to get outdoors (most of my test firing has been in indoor ranges where the light sucks!) for a shooting photo session.
Production update: casting bids are coming back and looking promising. Tentative production schedule happening in July with delivery mid to late August! Woohoo!
Take care....
BrobeeBiter
Small Update: I used some of my prototype parts to put together an 18.5 inch gun to photograph:
I'm getting both guns/stock adapters/rails powdercoated sometime late this week, and will post some pictures then. I'm also going to try to get outdoors (most of my test firing has been in indoor ranges where the light sucks!) for a shooting photo session.
Production update: casting bids are coming back and looking promising. Tentative production schedule happening in July with delivery mid to late August! Woohoo!
Take care....
BrobeeBiter
I'm sorry, but IMO you took one of the best natural pointing and easy to fit guns out there and ruined it.
The conventional stock is what the 870 needs, a pistol grip opens your stance up and things just don't point nice. I'm lanky enough that I don't even shorten std. 870 stocks.
Sights on a shotgun: A shotgun should point. I want a windage and elevation adjustable sight for slugs, but won't do it until I can make a rear that folds out of sight when not used. Front bead/fiber bead will be used with apeture rear. Any other sights obstruct too much of the target for a shotguns primary uses and get your eye up off the bore axis. I shoot with a plain bbl and reciever rib only.
If I want an AR-15 I have one. Further I think an 18" bbl 870 is plenty short enough. That Mattel stock will also make the gun more nose heavy as well as collapse under extreme use. The sight rib goes back to getting your eye away from where it belongs which is down on the bore axis. More crap to undo to strip the gun too. Red dot sight? Uses batteries, not to depend on.
The conventional stock is what the 870 needs, a pistol grip opens your stance up and things just don't point nice. I'm lanky enough that I don't even shorten std. 870 stocks.
Sights on a shotgun: A shotgun should point. I want a windage and elevation adjustable sight for slugs, but won't do it until I can make a rear that folds out of sight when not used. Front bead/fiber bead will be used with apeture rear. Any other sights obstruct too much of the target for a shotguns primary uses and get your eye up off the bore axis. I shoot with a plain bbl and reciever rib only.
If I want an AR-15 I have one. Further I think an 18" bbl 870 is plenty short enough. That Mattel stock will also make the gun more nose heavy as well as collapse under extreme use. The sight rib goes back to getting your eye away from where it belongs which is down on the bore axis. More crap to undo to strip the gun too. Red dot sight? Uses batteries, not to depend on.
earl_simmons
Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2003
- Messages
- 70
I like it. I don't know how well a rail-mounted forward grip (especially the plastic KAC version) will hold up to vigorous operation, though. And unlike some folks who appear to believe that what fits them should fit every other human on the planet, I appreciate the capability of mounting the collapsible stock. As one with short arms and large pectorals, I'd love to attach the RRA "stubby" A2 stock.
Kestryll
member
Are you planning anything for the Mossberg shotguns?
Andrew Wyatt
Member
a mossberg done up like that would need to have a trigger blocking safety as part of the stock, methinks.
it could be done.
it could be done.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
another thing you might want to look into is a no tools way of removing the barrel for cleaning. i have a sling ring on my mossberg, and i have to use an allen wrench to clean the gun.
this is no fun.
this is no fun.
BrobeeBiter
Member
Navy joe:
No need to be sorry! This type of frank discussion is exactly what I am looking for and honestly I am grateful for as many varied opinions as I can get. If all I was interested in was telling people all about my opinion I would not learn very much.
I realize that what I have done is very much targeted towards very specific mission requirements and that it is by far not for everyone....especially those that prefer the very good design philosophy and beauty of simplicity.
I am very and sincerely interested to know what you use your shotgun for?
For those reading, let me introduce you to a bit of the mission requirements that lead to this little project. I primarily use my shotgun for three things...home protection, big game hunting, and backcountry bush bear defense. I suspect this might spark some heated debate, but allow me to briefly discuss my approach to these three Brobee-requirments. While these philosophies extend into many other veins of the smoothbore world, I am going to try to keep them relevent to design considerations inherent to a shotgun equipped as you see above. Let's explore backcountry bear protection and big game hunting first.
I carry my shotgun a great deal in the bush...when I am camping or hiking it is carried on the exterior of my pack and when I am hunting I carry it primarily in a low ready type configuration. When used for general bear protection, the ability to store the shotgun while having it accessable is the challenge. Folding stocks are great for transportation/portability part of this equation, but seriously lack when the gun is called for without the time to muck around with the stock. I feel strongly enough about this to state that in my opinion, a folding stock absolutely has no place on a 12 gauge. Based on experience, I have found it very difficult and unwieldly to carry a full length shotgun attached to the exterior of my pack. The combination of a 14 inch barrel and a telescoping stock makes for me an ideal solution to this scenario...the gun can always be fired from the shoulder, and it's overall length is only 28 inches: only two inches longer than an 18.5 inch gun with a folding-type stock. In these types of situations, I subscribe in a big way to the James Gary Sheldon school of bear defense and as such my bear gun is loaded with slugs. I agree that the gun should be able to point quickly in the event of chargin bear, however a well aimed shot is the overwhelming objective, thus my preference for some sort of iron sights.
When big game hunting, still hunting and stalking is my preferred methodology. I typically carry my shotgun at a low ready and appreciate in a big way a pistol grip type stock during the hours upon hours that I am slowly creeping through the bush. I now believe I understand why most of the world's military rifles are equipped with this type of stock, as it is my opinion that this makes prolonged carrying in a condition of semi-readiness way easier. Here in Alberta, it is illegal to big game hunt with any form of ammunition other than slug, so I also and again appreciate some sort of sighting system a little more precise than the mighty bead. I really like the red dot with the backup irons for this application. The red dot is ultra fast to acquire, lends very well to my preferred style of both eyes open, easy to point, and also carries an inherent high degree of precision. For hunting, I prefer an 18.5 or 20 inch barrel to my 14.
With respect to home defense, #9 shot, #4 buck, and slug are my loads of choice. Both eyes open is a critical requirement and pointability is also very important. Until I tried a red dot style sight on my combat shotgun, I did not appreciate how quick and effective this technology was for me for these requirements of inherent quick handling and instinctual target acquisition. I also appreciate the less obstructed view of a forward mounted red dot sight in comparison to the slightly more limited field of view when sighting directly down the receiver/barrel. I also appreciate a short shotgun here, as I feel it handles slightly faster and is a bit more versatile when negotiating and navigating the geometery of my house.
I want to stress again that these are only my thoughts. I have no illusions that what I prefer is what is best for everyone...and I sincerely want to understand what you prefer and why.
Thanks so much for the feedback...
Take care...
BrobeeBiter!
No need to be sorry! This type of frank discussion is exactly what I am looking for and honestly I am grateful for as many varied opinions as I can get. If all I was interested in was telling people all about my opinion I would not learn very much.
I realize that what I have done is very much targeted towards very specific mission requirements and that it is by far not for everyone....especially those that prefer the very good design philosophy and beauty of simplicity.
I am very and sincerely interested to know what you use your shotgun for?
For those reading, let me introduce you to a bit of the mission requirements that lead to this little project. I primarily use my shotgun for three things...home protection, big game hunting, and backcountry bush bear defense. I suspect this might spark some heated debate, but allow me to briefly discuss my approach to these three Brobee-requirments. While these philosophies extend into many other veins of the smoothbore world, I am going to try to keep them relevent to design considerations inherent to a shotgun equipped as you see above. Let's explore backcountry bear protection and big game hunting first.
I carry my shotgun a great deal in the bush...when I am camping or hiking it is carried on the exterior of my pack and when I am hunting I carry it primarily in a low ready type configuration. When used for general bear protection, the ability to store the shotgun while having it accessable is the challenge. Folding stocks are great for transportation/portability part of this equation, but seriously lack when the gun is called for without the time to muck around with the stock. I feel strongly enough about this to state that in my opinion, a folding stock absolutely has no place on a 12 gauge. Based on experience, I have found it very difficult and unwieldly to carry a full length shotgun attached to the exterior of my pack. The combination of a 14 inch barrel and a telescoping stock makes for me an ideal solution to this scenario...the gun can always be fired from the shoulder, and it's overall length is only 28 inches: only two inches longer than an 18.5 inch gun with a folding-type stock. In these types of situations, I subscribe in a big way to the James Gary Sheldon school of bear defense and as such my bear gun is loaded with slugs. I agree that the gun should be able to point quickly in the event of chargin bear, however a well aimed shot is the overwhelming objective, thus my preference for some sort of iron sights.
When big game hunting, still hunting and stalking is my preferred methodology. I typically carry my shotgun at a low ready and appreciate in a big way a pistol grip type stock during the hours upon hours that I am slowly creeping through the bush. I now believe I understand why most of the world's military rifles are equipped with this type of stock, as it is my opinion that this makes prolonged carrying in a condition of semi-readiness way easier. Here in Alberta, it is illegal to big game hunt with any form of ammunition other than slug, so I also and again appreciate some sort of sighting system a little more precise than the mighty bead. I really like the red dot with the backup irons for this application. The red dot is ultra fast to acquire, lends very well to my preferred style of both eyes open, easy to point, and also carries an inherent high degree of precision. For hunting, I prefer an 18.5 or 20 inch barrel to my 14.
With respect to home defense, #9 shot, #4 buck, and slug are my loads of choice. Both eyes open is a critical requirement and pointability is also very important. Until I tried a red dot style sight on my combat shotgun, I did not appreciate how quick and effective this technology was for me for these requirements of inherent quick handling and instinctual target acquisition. I also appreciate the less obstructed view of a forward mounted red dot sight in comparison to the slightly more limited field of view when sighting directly down the receiver/barrel. I also appreciate a short shotgun here, as I feel it handles slightly faster and is a bit more versatile when negotiating and navigating the geometery of my house.
I want to stress again that these are only my thoughts. I have no illusions that what I prefer is what is best for everyone...and I sincerely want to understand what you prefer and why.
Thanks so much for the feedback...
Take care...
BrobeeBiter!
BrobeeBiter
Member
Hello all!
Several things I neglected to address in my last post (I kept getting distracted while writing it...d'oh!)
Why do I prefer a collapsible stock? In addition to the overall length component of the equation as noted in my previous post, I am a short stocky guy who, in the pursuit of my outdoor objectives and living in Canada, can go from wearing a t-shirt to a winter parka in the course of the same day. For me a fixed stock does not have anywhere near the same flexibility in this department as a telescoping one and having my shotgun fit properly is, in my mind, important. This versatility is important to me. I initially tried to address this issue by purchasing a Sage International telescoping stock. Unfortunately, living in Canada, they would not sell me one. *sigh*
Durability of the collapsible stock: This was originally a big concern for me as well. I was especially worried about the steel pin that locks the stock onto it's fixed buffer tubey housing thing (the part that screws into the back of the AR lower), I was concerned that the pin would deform the indexing holes under the recoil of full-house 12 gauge loads. Well...these fears have thus far proved in practice to be unfounded. I have over 2000 rounds through one of my test guns, (with a thousand slug/buck and the remaining lighter trap loads) and there is no sign of deformaties or fatigue. The stock looks and functions as it did the day I screwed it onto the back of my shotgun.
The mossberg: Pending commercial success of the 870 adapter, I was going to tackle the Winchester next (only because I am frightened of mucking with the mossberg safety!).
Forward mounted vertical handle: I agree...a plastic one would be iffy at best...my thoughts are that if I pimped up a gun like that it would have to have a steel vertical handle of some sort. I don't think that the three sided picatinny pumper is going to happen any time soon and if so it would probably only be to put on the gun, have a good laugh, take some photograps to post and figure out if there would be any interest in something like that. My personal feelings are that it is a little exessive. The reason I drew it up was in consideration of places to put an M4 illuminator...maybe I'll start with a small mounting rail under the front stock...
Tool-less removal of the rail: I don't think this is going to happen. One of the things I really enjoy about the rail is how much better it secures the barrel in contrast to the mag extension/cap alone. Currently, removing one countersunk hex-keyed capscrew detaches the rail from the front rail adapter. Alan keys are plentiful, and I feel like I would sacrifice an improved ease of takedown for the rigidity of the system the way it is. If a guy really wanted to, I guess a hand-tightened bolt with a large head could be made...it could even have a threaded hole for a permanent front sight....I might have to spin that up on my taig (teeny-weenie hobby lathe) just to check it out....
Thanks again for the feedback...
Sincerely,
BrobeeBiter!
Several things I neglected to address in my last post (I kept getting distracted while writing it...d'oh!)
Why do I prefer a collapsible stock? In addition to the overall length component of the equation as noted in my previous post, I am a short stocky guy who, in the pursuit of my outdoor objectives and living in Canada, can go from wearing a t-shirt to a winter parka in the course of the same day. For me a fixed stock does not have anywhere near the same flexibility in this department as a telescoping one and having my shotgun fit properly is, in my mind, important. This versatility is important to me. I initially tried to address this issue by purchasing a Sage International telescoping stock. Unfortunately, living in Canada, they would not sell me one. *sigh*
Durability of the collapsible stock: This was originally a big concern for me as well. I was especially worried about the steel pin that locks the stock onto it's fixed buffer tubey housing thing (the part that screws into the back of the AR lower), I was concerned that the pin would deform the indexing holes under the recoil of full-house 12 gauge loads. Well...these fears have thus far proved in practice to be unfounded. I have over 2000 rounds through one of my test guns, (with a thousand slug/buck and the remaining lighter trap loads) and there is no sign of deformaties or fatigue. The stock looks and functions as it did the day I screwed it onto the back of my shotgun.
The mossberg: Pending commercial success of the 870 adapter, I was going to tackle the Winchester next (only because I am frightened of mucking with the mossberg safety!).
Forward mounted vertical handle: I agree...a plastic one would be iffy at best...my thoughts are that if I pimped up a gun like that it would have to have a steel vertical handle of some sort. I don't think that the three sided picatinny pumper is going to happen any time soon and if so it would probably only be to put on the gun, have a good laugh, take some photograps to post and figure out if there would be any interest in something like that. My personal feelings are that it is a little exessive. The reason I drew it up was in consideration of places to put an M4 illuminator...maybe I'll start with a small mounting rail under the front stock...
Tool-less removal of the rail: I don't think this is going to happen. One of the things I really enjoy about the rail is how much better it secures the barrel in contrast to the mag extension/cap alone. Currently, removing one countersunk hex-keyed capscrew detaches the rail from the front rail adapter. Alan keys are plentiful, and I feel like I would sacrifice an improved ease of takedown for the rigidity of the system the way it is. If a guy really wanted to, I guess a hand-tightened bolt with a large head could be made...it could even have a threaded hole for a permanent front sight....I might have to spin that up on my taig (teeny-weenie hobby lathe) just to check it out....
Thanks again for the feedback...
Sincerely,
BrobeeBiter!
I use my 18" bbl 870 Police for HD, truck gun, 3 gun, deer hunting, and skeet if I can find a range where people don't die when a IC bore riot gun with a sidesaddle shows up to break birds.
I am a big believer in conventional stocks in that they position my hand in such a way that instinctive sight alignment/shooting is very possible. I Won't have a stock that offers a bad cheek weld. Also, nowhere did I say that it must fit everyone as someone else implied, cut the stock shorter.
Here are some guns that I shoot very well. M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine, M-1A, 870. What they have in common is a conventional comb stock that I can get a good cheek weld on. The lack of a pistol grip gets my stronghand elbow up high in dynamic off hand shooting, making a very stable shooting platform. Another commonality is that what sights there are are very close to the bore axis and align with where my face plops down on the stock.
I shoot my AR quite handily, but it requires more thought since with the PG my stance is opened up and I find myself wondering if my nose is touching the charging handle, where my offhand should be for best balance etc. I find that the PG ,straight stock, and high sights take a little more work when snap shooting than does the std stocked guns. As a shotgun should point naturally I don't want to mess with success.
I am also at my limit with crap on my gun, that limit being a long mag and a sidesaddle. I want (Iwannacoolgunvirus) a Surefire forend, but am 1. Cheap and 2. don't know if I'll like how it makes the gun feel which leads back to #1 in that I'm scared to buy and not like it.
If you do this, get a metal coll. stock like Colt used to make, them cute little plastic ones ain't gonna make it. Hey, you could store ammo in all that space in the stock!
I am a big believer in conventional stocks in that they position my hand in such a way that instinctive sight alignment/shooting is very possible. I Won't have a stock that offers a bad cheek weld. Also, nowhere did I say that it must fit everyone as someone else implied, cut the stock shorter.
Here are some guns that I shoot very well. M-1 Garand, M-1 carbine, M-1A, 870. What they have in common is a conventional comb stock that I can get a good cheek weld on. The lack of a pistol grip gets my stronghand elbow up high in dynamic off hand shooting, making a very stable shooting platform. Another commonality is that what sights there are are very close to the bore axis and align with where my face plops down on the stock.
I shoot my AR quite handily, but it requires more thought since with the PG my stance is opened up and I find myself wondering if my nose is touching the charging handle, where my offhand should be for best balance etc. I find that the PG ,straight stock, and high sights take a little more work when snap shooting than does the std stocked guns. As a shotgun should point naturally I don't want to mess with success.
I am also at my limit with crap on my gun, that limit being a long mag and a sidesaddle. I want (Iwannacoolgunvirus) a Surefire forend, but am 1. Cheap and 2. don't know if I'll like how it makes the gun feel which leads back to #1 in that I'm scared to buy and not like it.
If you do this, get a metal coll. stock like Colt used to make, them cute little plastic ones ain't gonna make it. Hey, you could store ammo in all that space in the stock!
BrobeeBiter
Member
Navy Joe:
Thanks for your continued contribution....!
I historically lusted after a sure-fire forend for a long time, and one day one of them showed up on a gun at the range I frequent. I spent quite a bit of time with it and quickly aligned myself with what you expressed your fears to be. Was I ever glad I did not shell out the big cash to buy one! My dislike was centered around the massive girth of this thing and the material it was made from...it was not comfortable at all and I found it very awkwards to handle and work the action of the gun. Again, I'm so very glad I did not buy one.
That being said, the seemingly zillion-candle power light gleaming out the end of this thing was pretty glorious and made me want to put the time into learning to like it.... I can certainly see how a light like that is useful and advantagous in a home defense situation, and have been mulling the whole thing over in my mind ever since (that is where the picatinny pumper/M4 illuminator idea came from...as ridiculous as it seems!)
Take care...
BrobeeBiter
Thanks for your continued contribution....!
I historically lusted after a sure-fire forend for a long time, and one day one of them showed up on a gun at the range I frequent. I spent quite a bit of time with it and quickly aligned myself with what you expressed your fears to be. Was I ever glad I did not shell out the big cash to buy one! My dislike was centered around the massive girth of this thing and the material it was made from...it was not comfortable at all and I found it very awkwards to handle and work the action of the gun. Again, I'm so very glad I did not buy one.
That being said, the seemingly zillion-candle power light gleaming out the end of this thing was pretty glorious and made me want to put the time into learning to like it...
. I can certainly see how a light like that is useful and advantagous in a home defense situation, and have been mulling the whole thing over in my mind ever since (that is where the picatinny pumper/M4 illuminator idea came from...as ridiculous as it seems!)Take care...
BrobeeBiter
max popenker
Member
just a little idea: why not to mount a short pieces of rail onto the sides of the top rail support (aside the barrel)?
this will leave the forend smooth, yet provide 2 mounting points for laser and light next to the barrel....
on the attached picture, arrow points to the suggested place (both sides of gun)
this will leave the forend smooth, yet provide 2 mounting points for laser and light next to the barrel....
on the attached picture, arrow points to the suggested place (both sides of gun)
Attachments
max popenker
Member
one more completely crazy idea.
if you can use picatinny rail to mount something ON that gun, why not to use that rail to mout .... shotgun ON something else?
if you know the Masterkey system (that is, a stripped rem870 mounted under the barrel of M16 or M4), why not to desigh a quick-detach masterkey adapter? just mount this adapter under your AR-15 rifle, and when required, remove the butt from shotgun and attach under the rifle using shotguns' rail... when not in need, quickly detach shotgun, and you immediately can user it as a pistol-gripped "cruiser"...
the key problem will be strenght of the Picatinny rail on shotgun
PS: following that, you can build completely weird "modular" systems, like .22LR pistol under your 12Ga for spotting, or .50AE Desert eagle under the 24" AR-15 sporter for CQB
PPS... i definely need a good beer. cool Guiness will be fine.
if you can use picatinny rail to mount something ON that gun, why not to use that rail to mout .... shotgun ON something else?
if you know the Masterkey system (that is, a stripped rem870 mounted under the barrel of M16 or M4), why not to desigh a quick-detach masterkey adapter? just mount this adapter under your AR-15 rifle, and when required, remove the butt from shotgun and attach under the rifle using shotguns' rail... when not in need, quickly detach shotgun, and you immediately can user it as a pistol-gripped "cruiser"...
the key problem will be strenght of the Picatinny rail on shotgun
PS: following that, you can build completely weird "modular" systems, like .22LR pistol under your 12Ga for spotting, or .50AE Desert eagle under the 24" AR-15 sporter for CQB
PPS... i definely need a good beer. cool Guiness will be fine.
max popenker
Member
crazy ideas flooding...
and how about raised full-lenght rail that can be used as a sighting rib, as well as carrying handle, with small integral bead at the front?
and how about raised full-lenght rail that can be used as a sighting rib, as well as carrying handle, with small integral bead at the front?
Cameron Lamont
Member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Messages
- 133
That is it!
If I can find the duct tape
I am going to duct tape my 870 to my AR right now.
C
45R
Member
BrobeeBiter-
Now are these conversions for dedicated shotguns. How easy it it to take the picatinny rail off if one wants to switch barrels? Is this secured to the reciever (drilled and tapped) or are these no gunsmitting mods. I'm curious for those who like to play with their toys have their SGs pull various types of duty. (ie HD, hunting)
All in all your mods for the 870 are pretty interesting for the "tactical junkie" who needs to have the latest and greatest of all toys. It looks like it would be alot of fun for 3 gun competition. Maybe good for a competitor to have the same type of grip on the AR as they do the SG. Do you have anyone on your staff that does field work. What do they think? Its definetly got some cool factor.
Let me know!
45R
Now are these conversions for dedicated shotguns. How easy it it to take the picatinny rail off if one wants to switch barrels? Is this secured to the reciever (drilled and tapped) or are these no gunsmitting mods. I'm curious for those who like to play with their toys have their SGs pull various types of duty. (ie HD, hunting)
All in all your mods for the 870 are pretty interesting for the "tactical junkie" who needs to have the latest and greatest of all toys. It looks like it would be alot of fun for 3 gun competition. Maybe good for a competitor to have the same type of grip on the AR as they do the SG. Do you have anyone on your staff that does field work. What do they think? Its definetly got some cool factor.
Let me know!
45R
I personally don't use my Vang comped 14 inch 870 with speedfeed shock, side saddle and MMC night sights much any more. I dropped it when AR15's got approved. A bead sight has no place on a fighting shotgun. It severly limits the potential of the gun. Rifle sights or a ghost ring set up is a must. Optics are great so long as you have iron to back them up. I am not sure this conversion is needed. I think the speed feed pistol grip stock is to be preferred of the M4 stock on a shotgun. The optic rail is interesting. But for me I would not bother with all that money into a shotgun when I can have an AR15.
PAT
PAT
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I like shotguns for HD and general carrying around instead of a .223 because they throw a .72 caliber lead slug or 9 .30 caliber lead balls around.
a .223 is a little light for anything but people or small deer.
I'm not saying i feel unarmed with an AR or mini-14, i'm just saying that i feel more armed with a shotgun.
like shotguns for HD and general carrying around instead of a .223 because they throw a .72 caliber lead slug or 9 .30 caliber lead balls around.
a .223 is a little light for anything but people or small deer.
END
I like a shotgun for bear defence when loaded with slugs. I also like it for home defence because of political reasons. But for work I will take the 223. In this area its more versatile. Now a shotgun is not a bad weapon in the hands of a skilled user. I just prefer the 223 carbine concept. I feel confident in the 223 ability as a fight stopper. I prefer it to buckshot. I would give the 12 gauge slug a nod however.
PAT
a .223 is a little light for anything but people or small deer.
END
I like a shotgun for bear defence when loaded with slugs. I also like it for home defence because of political reasons. But for work I will take the 223. In this area its more versatile. Now a shotgun is not a bad weapon in the hands of a skilled user. I just prefer the 223 carbine concept. I feel confident in the 223 ability as a fight stopper. I prefer it to buckshot. I would give the 12 gauge slug a nod however.
PAT
BrobeeBiter
Member
Hello All!
Other than the over-penetration factor (which is irrelevent for 99.9% of the things I use my shotgun for), it is my opinion that it is hard to beat slugs. WHo can argue with a .74 caliber 450 grain projectile whoomping along at 1600 fps? Besides...having the choice to negotiate with a .74 caliber slug, 9-32 caliber balls, 27-22 caliber balls, or 550 pieces of #9 shot is also something I sincerely appreciate. Shotguns truly do it all, and well if you ask me!
max popenker: I think your mini-rail mounted to the z axis of the front barrel clamp has some merit and is something that I might try sometime down the road. For right now, I'm going to concentrate on getting what I've got into production.
45R: The conversion can be mounted without tools to any remington 870 (the current configuration of my full length rail only requires a non-ribbed barrel). I drilled and tapped one of my receivers for the rear rail adapter, however I didn't on my second build and honestly it is not really required. The only reason I might be inclined to do this would be if I was using a picatinny rail that only ran the length of the receiver. In this case I would suggest drilling and tapping one hole into the receiver, but with the full length rail it is unnecessary.
With the full length rail installed, to remove the barrel from the gun you need to remove one hex-key bolt from the front rail adapter.
With respect to my staff......I am an army of one. Well...maybe not entirly...my spouse is planning to help out with the office managing aspect of things once I am past my production run. I'll get some photographs of her handling the gun and post them with some of her comments! (This will have to wait a week or two, as both my test guns are in getting re-finished right now....a greenish-black powder coating that in my opinion, will look extremely sharp!) What did you mean by "field work?" I have had the gun at the range many times and have had as many people as I could find fire the thing...reactions thus far have been extremely positive...in fact I've got about a significant number of my 150 unit preliminary production run already spoken for by these people.
While I am certainly biased, when I try to be as objective and detatched as possible while trying to describe the whole system I can still say that an M4 telescoping stock on a shotgun with elevated sights (either the flip up irons, my EOTech, or my Aimpoint) is a radically different experience I find difficult not te get excited about in a positive way. The only application I believe it falls way short on is in the bird hunting department. For my requirements of HD, Brobee-bush-bear defense gun, and big game hunting, I think it is the cat's a**.
355sigfan: I too really like the AR15 and for a home defense or law-enforcement patrol type application I think it is well suited (particularly if it is a select fiire weapon) as it opens up the effective engagement range from 75-100 yards to over 300. If it is not a select fore weapon, then it is only my opinion that it is not as effective a tool as a shotgun. This also applies for bear defense.
Here in Alberta there are legal considerations across all of my mission requirements with respect to the AR15. Firstly, it is not legal to hunt with a caliber smaller than .243, and secondly even the semi-auto AR15's are considered to be "Restricted Firearms". In Canada, for the most part the only place a regular civilian can legally be in posession of a restricted firearm is at a goverment approved range, their residence (where the firearm is registered as being stored), or a reasonable direct route while transporting said firearm from residence to range (the transportation also requires a permit...called an Authorization to Transport). *sigh*...so while I have a strong affection for my AR15, I can't really use it for anything. While not completely off the government radar (only things like an m203 are...go figure!), a pump action shotgun is at the bottom of the list with respect to legal restrictions and as such it fits both my needs and preferences very well.
I own two speedfeed pistol grip stocks for my 870s and think they are extremely well made and very ergonomic choices. If I did not have the capability of mounting a collapsible M4 stock on my shotgun, the speedfeed products would be my stock of choice. The only mission requirement they did not fill for me was the adjustable length of pull.
Andrew Wyatt: For engagements under 100 yards, I too feel more armed with a shotgun (again unless the alternative to my shotgun has select fire capability)
Take care....
BrobeeBiter
Other than the over-penetration factor (which is irrelevent for 99.9% of the things I use my shotgun for), it is my opinion that it is hard to beat slugs. WHo can argue with a .74 caliber 450 grain projectile whoomping along at 1600 fps? Besides...having the choice to negotiate with a .74 caliber slug, 9-32 caliber balls, 27-22 caliber balls, or 550 pieces of #9 shot is also something I sincerely appreciate. Shotguns truly do it all, and well if you ask me!
max popenker: I think your mini-rail mounted to the z axis of the front barrel clamp has some merit and is something that I might try sometime down the road. For right now, I'm going to concentrate on getting what I've got into production.
45R: The conversion can be mounted without tools to any remington 870 (the current configuration of my full length rail only requires a non-ribbed barrel). I drilled and tapped one of my receivers for the rear rail adapter, however I didn't on my second build and honestly it is not really required. The only reason I might be inclined to do this would be if I was using a picatinny rail that only ran the length of the receiver. In this case I would suggest drilling and tapping one hole into the receiver, but with the full length rail it is unnecessary.
With the full length rail installed, to remove the barrel from the gun you need to remove one hex-key bolt from the front rail adapter.
With respect to my staff...
...I am an army of one. Well...maybe not entirly...my spouse is planning to help out with the office managing aspect of things once I am past my production run. I'll get some photographs of her handling the gun and post them with some of her comments! (This will have to wait a week or two, as both my test guns are in getting re-finished right now....a greenish-black powder coating that in my opinion, will look extremely sharp!) What did you mean by "field work?" I have had the gun at the range many times and have had as many people as I could find fire the thing...reactions thus far have been extremely positive...in fact I've got about a significant number of my 150 unit preliminary production run already spoken for by these people.While I am certainly biased, when I try to be as objective and detatched as possible while trying to describe the whole system I can still say that an M4 telescoping stock on a shotgun with elevated sights (either the flip up irons, my EOTech, or my Aimpoint) is a radically different experience I find difficult not te get excited about in a positive way. The only application I believe it falls way short on is in the bird hunting department. For my requirements of HD, Brobee-bush-bear defense gun, and big game hunting, I think it is the cat's a**.
355sigfan: I too really like the AR15 and for a home defense or law-enforcement patrol type application I think it is well suited (particularly if it is a select fiire weapon) as it opens up the effective engagement range from 75-100 yards to over 300. If it is not a select fore weapon, then it is only my opinion that it is not as effective a tool as a shotgun. This also applies for bear defense.
Here in Alberta there are legal considerations across all of my mission requirements with respect to the AR15. Firstly, it is not legal to hunt with a caliber smaller than .243, and secondly even the semi-auto AR15's are considered to be "Restricted Firearms". In Canada, for the most part the only place a regular civilian can legally be in posession of a restricted firearm is at a goverment approved range, their residence (where the firearm is registered as being stored), or a reasonable direct route while transporting said firearm from residence to range (the transportation also requires a permit...called an Authorization to Transport). *sigh*...so while I have a strong affection for my AR15, I can't really use it for anything. While not completely off the government radar (only things like an m203 are...go figure!), a pump action shotgun is at the bottom of the list with respect to legal restrictions and as such it fits both my needs and preferences very well.
I own two speedfeed pistol grip stocks for my 870s and think they are extremely well made and very ergonomic choices. If I did not have the capability of mounting a collapsible M4 stock on my shotgun, the speedfeed products would be my stock of choice. The only mission requirement they did not fill for me was the adjustable length of pull.
Andrew Wyatt: For engagements under 100 yards, I too feel more armed with a shotgun (again unless the alternative to my shotgun has select fire capability)
Take care....
BrobeeBiter
45R
Member
I meant law enforcement and military types. How did these guys respond to your prototype?
Brobee:
M203s are legal in Canada?
i like your proto type! but as for the mossberg adapter you said you gotta work around the safety. couldnt you use the Maverick which is basically a mossy an has the safety behind the trigger?
or were you looking into the 590 as your weapon to adpat the AR too?
another thing. to raise the line of sight of the weapon could you lower the mounting of the stock? it looks like you got a little room to do that. or maybe angle it like a FAL an curve the butt with a rubber pad? might raise cost a little but would provide the use of the bead an lineup.
M203s are legal in Canada?
i like your proto type! but as for the mossberg adapter you said you gotta work around the safety. couldnt you use the Maverick which is basically a mossy an has the safety behind the trigger?
or were you looking into the 590 as your weapon to adpat the AR too?
another thing. to raise the line of sight of the weapon could you lower the mounting of the stock? it looks like you got a little room to do that. or maybe angle it like a FAL an curve the butt with a rubber pad? might raise cost a little but would provide the use of the bead an lineup.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
if you angle the stock, the comba height changes when the stock is collapsed. this is not good.
lowering the stock also makes the shotgun rise more in recoil.
lowering the stock also makes the shotgun rise more in recoil.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
if you angle the stock, the comba height changes when the stock is collapsed. this is not good.
lowering the stock also makes the shotgun rise more in recoil.
lowering the stock also makes the shotgun rise more in recoil.
BrobeeBiter
Member
Hello!
willyjixx: Believe it or not, the M203 is legal in Canada....well...sort of. You are not allowed to import one, but if you can find one already in the country then there is not problem. It is not even considered to be a firearm by the canadian government as the muzzle velocity of your standard 40mm round is below the magic number (I can't remember exactly what it is, but it is in the neibourhood of 400 fps). I am currently looking for one that I intend to fabricate a standalone stock (so it does not always have to be attached to my AR15; that which is considered to be a firearm and not only that, but one of the evil ones).
The Maverick: I was unaware that the maverick is the same thing as the mossberg, but with a trigger guard type safety. I will have to do some market research and see how many there are out there....most of the Mossbergs I have seen have had the safety on the topmost rear portion of the receiver.
When I designed the adapter, it was my intent to have the stock parallel to the barrel and within an inch of the centerline of the bore. This serves several purposes....putting the stock directly in line with the barrel all but eliminates muzzle rise as well as povides a consistant comb height regardless of the stock position. I put the stock a little lower (but still paralell) such that the elevated optics (required with this configuration) would not be too high above the centerline of the bore. I did a little trajectory modeling with slug ammunition and came up with what I thought was a good balance between all the different variables.
45R: LE and military personnel that have had the opportunity to test fire the weapon have thus far been impressed....I don't have a very large sample group here though (only a couple individuals). They are a large portion of my target market and I need more feedback from them. Several of my initial production models are earmarked for lending for this purpose.
Take care all!
BrobeeBiter
willyjixx: Believe it or not, the M203 is legal in Canada....well...sort of. You are not allowed to import one, but if you can find one already in the country then there is not problem. It is not even considered to be a firearm by the canadian government as the muzzle velocity of your standard 40mm round is below the magic number (I can't remember exactly what it is, but it is in the neibourhood of 400 fps). I am currently looking for one that I intend to fabricate a standalone stock (so it does not always have to be attached to my AR15; that which is considered to be a firearm and not only that, but one of the evil ones).
The Maverick: I was unaware that the maverick is the same thing as the mossberg, but with a trigger guard type safety. I will have to do some market research and see how many there are out there....most of the Mossbergs I have seen have had the safety on the topmost rear portion of the receiver.
When I designed the adapter, it was my intent to have the stock parallel to the barrel and within an inch of the centerline of the bore. This serves several purposes....putting the stock directly in line with the barrel all but eliminates muzzle rise as well as povides a consistant comb height regardless of the stock position. I put the stock a little lower (but still paralell) such that the elevated optics (required with this configuration) would not be too high above the centerline of the bore. I did a little trajectory modeling with slug ammunition and came up with what I thought was a good balance between all the different variables.
45R: LE and military personnel that have had the opportunity to test fire the weapon have thus far been impressed....I don't have a very large sample group here though (only a couple individuals). They are a large portion of my target market and I need more feedback from them. Several of my initial production models are earmarked for lending for this purpose.
Take care all!
BrobeeBiter
- Status
