Are all gun engravers jerks?

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Buck Nekkid

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Howdy!

I was at the fabulous Beinfeld Antique Arms show today here in Sin City. I purposely brought a pistol that I want engraved because I knew that a local engraver would be there.

I found him and he looked at my pistol--a 1948 CZ 45 .25 ACP--he says he can't really talk to me now. He says that he's booked until June and then he basically turned his back on me.

I wish I could turn away customers with $$ in their pocket like that! I was hoping to find someone locally so I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of sending the little guy off, but after this I'm looking elsewhere!
 
Well, artists (I guess engravers would come under that classification) are funny people. A good friend of mine is one of the better artists in Central America; I have several of his water colors. We have tried to convince him to hire an agent to sell more of his works. He refuses because he says the agent has no right to 10% of his sales because he, the artist, did all the work. Go figure.

With all due respect to you tho, I can't see why you would want to spend the $ to engrave that particular gun. I have one, also a 1948 which I tried to sell on GB recently and got no bids. Maybe if it had been a Model 1908 Colt .25 he may have agreed. Like I say they're funny people.
 
I had good luck with Michael Gouse. He engraved a Model 29 for me and it looks like a million bucks (to me). He has a website Michael Gouse Engraving.

Check it out. you can call him at the phone # listed and he will work with you I have no doubt. Here is a pic of my 44.

Picture19026.jpg
 
I have a friend in Colorado that got into engraving a few years ago and her business is booming. Maybe it's because she is a very nice and talented lady.

Feel free to PM me for her contact info.
 
Depending on what you're engraving needs are, I've used the local jeweler to help me out and they've been great. I just ask them first if they'll even engrave a firearm and take it from there.
 
well, once you have such a backlog of work it will take you 6 months to get through it all, you CAN turn away customers with $$$ in their wallets and not worry about it too much
 
Thanks guys! I guess my only alternative will be to find someone like Michael Gouse or Mr. D'Angelo. I guess it just irrigates the Hell out of me to be snubbed like that.

Jondar there is no logical reason for me to want to make an investment in a little pistol like this. I mean it's a pretty useless caliber, it was barely imported into the U.S., parts are a little difficult to obtain (Marstar in Canada does seem to have some, though), and yet I'm just in love with it...chalk it up to another CZaholic with more money than sense!;)
 
He's honest. If he was a liar, he'd take your gun, promise you a time frame he knew he couldn't keep and then when he's ready, start work on your gun. Nope, he's not a jerk, he's honest.
 
He's honest. If he was a liar, he'd take your gun, promise you a time frame he knew he couldn't keep and then when he's ready, start work on your gun. Nope, he's not a jerk, he's honest.

Sounds like he's an honest jerk, vs. a dishonest jerk. A jerk nonetheless.
 
I might give Mr. Zip a call. His "engraving" though appears to be done with a laser, not hammer and chisel or power graver. It kind of lay's there, flat and without any depth.

Here's a Colt Vest Pocket Model of 1908. Look at the depth of engraving here:

Colt1908Engraved.jpg

Here's an FN/Browning's "Baby Browning" this one is a peach!

BabyBrowningEngraved.jpg
 
This was at the bottom of Mr. Zip's Page:

ALL ENGRAVING SHOWN HERE WAS DONE USING A ROTATING DIAMOND CUTTER

I don't have anything against what he's doing. It just might not be what some people are looking for though. However, he's probably faster and less expensive.
 
BN,
While I was attending gunsmithing school ten years ago or so, one of the students who started right as I was finishing up was really good at engraving. He had a touch I've only seen from master engravers.

He used to engrave Ostrich eggs as practice. They were fantastic.

He graduated 14 months after he started, right on time. As soon as he graduated, he put out his engraving shingle.

From that time forward, he has roughly a six to twelve month wait for your gun to come up. And HE has to have possesion of it the whole time or you go back to the end of his list.

If you want work done by a master craftsman, then you best learn to be nice to them, because if you are not, they will NEVER do any work for you. And they will tell all their engraving buddies about your 'attitude' towards him.

Then NO ONE will ever do any work for you.

So perhaps a little understanding on your part will go a long way when dealing with someone who has more work than he has time for.

And yes, if you have the TALENT to become a master engraver, you too will be able to pick and choose the people you will and will NOT work for.

Perhaps you might look inside as to why you were so miffed by someone who was just trying to be as nice AND HONEST as he could. You got money? He don't need it. You want work done? Get in line.

I just retired from doing gunsmithing work for the general public last year. I retired because of people like you who think that their money makes them special.

Bud, trust me. There is ALWAYS someone out there who has MORE than you do. Be it money, looks, brains, talent, whatever. So check the attitude at the door or you will find yourself constantly disappointed throughout your life.

just a view from 'the other side of the table'...
 
His "engraving" though appears to be done with a laser, not hammer and chisel or power graver. It kind of lay's there, flat and without any depth.
Click to expand...
It appears to me to be done with a computerized engraving machine (think heavy duty plotter, or light duty CNC) with a rotating diamond cutter. In fact, I think I conversed with him over on www.1911Forum.com awhile back about that.

I have two machines like that, only not as up-to-date or capable as his (mine just do trophies and small plaques).

The common laser engravers used in trophy shops are CO2 lasers, and will not engrave metal. They are designed for wood, and will do other materials such as glass, leather, acrylic etc. YAG lasers will cut metal, but they are primarily used in machine shops.

As to your original question: I engrave about three guns a week, and I'm not a jerk, so, NO. ;)
 
Sorry, but the jerk is the one who thinks everything should be dropped for his job and the heck with the 6 month waiting list. For some reason his money is better than everyone elses and he shouldn't have to wait. Yea right.

I've waited 6 months or more for the last 2 knives I had made, and some makers take much longer. You don't get it when you want it, you get it when you get it or go to someone else with a shorter wait time.
 
wish I could turn away customers with $$ in their pocket like that! I was hoping to find someone locally so I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of sending the little guy off, but after this I'm looking elsewhere!
Click to expand...
He's free to turn you down. You're free to look elsewhere

May be little OT, but points out a trend I see....

people who have a somewhat uncommon or high demand talent, or are willing to do what others won't are at a point that they can make some decent money on their own terms right now

Truck drivers can go to school for 2-3 weeks and start out at 50k+ a year. Decent HVAC techs make $60K+ around here and are in short supply.

Engraving seems like it would be great. Work at you own time, at your own pace, anywhere you want.
 
I have a good friend, Dennis, who engraves old firearms for pleasure and for his own legacy, not for profit. He does beautiful hand engraved and relief work, but only on his own guns, and he keeps most of them afterwards. I think he has sold about three of over 100 guns he has painstakingly engraved. He trades off his work instead.

I have tried to convince him to engrave a gun for me to no avail. Because he is a friend, he explained to me why. According to him, a gun to be engraved must already possess a near flawless surface. Otherwise, the engraving will be compromised. You never know what that surface is until the finish is removed. Most folks do not want to accept this. They believe engraving can cover a flawed surface. They also do not want to believe the amount of work that goes into preparing a flawed surface for engraving, let alone what goes into the engraving itself. Then there is the complicated refinishing afterwards that may ruin the gun if the refinisher is unfamiliar with refinishing engraved surfaces.

When it comes to artisans, and a gun engraver is an artisan, they make their living as much off their honesty and reputation as their work. If they do commission work, they will alienate many customers and also collateral customers for bumping the que to accomodate one man with more money. This is precisely why Dennis refuses any commission work. He simply does not want to lose friends. Thus, he will trade off guns he has already engraved rather than lose a friend. If someone wants his work bad enough to give up three or four pristine old guns for one engraved one, he'll consider the deal.

Dennis shows his guns at gun shows, and he is a very friendly fellow, who will talk your ear off. He shows because he collects engraved guns, he wants to make contacts, and he likes to show off his own work. If someone is interested in having a gun engraved though, he puts them off and changes the subject. He does not want to insult their gun, or get into an argument over what he can and cannot do, let alone what he will or will not do. For Dennis, it is not about money. He lives comfortably. For Dennis, it's about enjoying the hobby of gun collecting. Rather than sell me an engraved gun, he has instead offered to teach me how to engrave. I wish I still had the time to accept his generous offer.

It is interesting that many people think that all folks with tables at gun shows are there to do business. Some are not. Some simply want to show what they have and spend some time talking guns and meet new people. To keep people from asking "How much do you want for this?" they simply place a tag on the gun that is truely what it would take to get it out of their hands. There's nothing wrong with that, they are not there to do business. They are there to enjoy their favorite past time.

I'm not certain if this was your situation, but I thought I might be able to give you a bit of insight into what may be happening. Good luck on your quest.
 
I knew I should've got into engraving.
At least I might be able to work for the U.S. Mint. Do firearms engraving on the side. Whatever.
Face facts, artists can be pretty weird. You should try and find a story from Outdoor Life magazine called "He Makes the Finest Gun Barrels in the World", it's about an old world gun craftsman who made gun barrels by hand. He would take his time to get the rifling just right. One customer came and thought he could bogart his way in with his job order. The gunmaker basically said "Don't bother me now!". The guy was totally engrossed in getting the rifling just perfect on a barrel he was working on. We are talking .0001 of an inch perfect.
It is basically an attitude exuded from the fact that you DO NOT mess with the pursuit of absolute perfection in the craft. Some artisans are cranky that way.

My artistics abilities have been thrown up in the attic for a good long time. I just didn't like what it brought out in me.
No desire to go get it. But this engraving thing gets me to thinking...
 
So this guy who had 6 months work of work ahead of him is a "jerk" because he didn't let you cut in line in front of all those other people!?

I think Jerks are people who complain that they can't get it their way when they want it. waa waaa waaaa
 
You should try and find a story from Outdoor Life magazine called "He Makes the Finest Gun Barrels in the World", it's about an old world gun craftsman who made gun barrels by hand.
Click to expand...
(Chris jumps up and starts rooting through the bookshelves...) Ah! That might be Lucien Cary's The Old Man who Fixes the Guns. One of the J.M. Pyne stories, originally printed in The Saturday Evening Post, November 16, 1935.

[Tim] went into the mill, and saw an old man doing something to a lathe.

"Don't talk to me now," the old man said. "I'll be with you in a minute."

Tim stood silent and watched. The old man had a small grinder rigged on the lathe, and he was grinding a reamer. He tool a minute cut and picked up a magnifying glass and the micrometer and measured. Then he took another tiny cut. He worked for 15 minutes, with a curious intentness, before he threw off the belt and looked up.

"I had my head full of figures just now, some of them to four places, and I couldn't talk without losing them. What can I do for you?"

"Why," Tim said - "why, you're J.M. Pyne, aren't you? I mean you're the famous rifle maker?"

"I make rifles," the old man said, "and so far as I know, I'm the only J.M. Pyne who does."
Click to expand...

I love that stuff.
 
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