Are gun combat courses becoming expected?

[bearcreek]

I'd assume so. This isn't a loaded question... I'm asking because I want to know your opinion. What, in your opinion and with regards to situations civilians are likely to encounter at distances they are likely to be able to legally defend themselves at, are the main differences?

Off hand, I'd say the main differences are that you're probably not going to standing in one spot, under zero stress, casually taking your time. You'll probably be highly stressed and sweating, there's a decent chance you'll already have been fighting with fists, feet and teeth before you even get the gun out, you may have other people who you don't want to hit who are within inches of the bad guy, you may have to get the gun out while your other hand is busy beating off your attacker or carrying your kid or...., you may have to use your support hand, and on and on. It would seem that the differences would be fairly obvious, even to the casual observer who's willing to think about it a bit. It's like the difference between driving a car with an automatic tranny at 45 MPH in a straight line down a paved road and driving in a rally race.

We repeatedly say this because more often than not, it does cost that much, but like you said, I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule somewhere out there.

You've got it backwards, which I suppose makes some sense since you said that you'd never attended any classes. The exceptions are the classes that cost thousands. A typical cost for a good firearms training class is $150-$200 per day.

Plus, we're not just including the cost of the class itself in this figure, but also cost of ammo, travel, room and board, equipment, etc.

Obviously there are additional costs beyond just the class although they seem to be often blown out of proportion in this thread. Why include food in a class cost, for example? Would you not still be eating if you didn't go to the class? Anyway, like I've said multiple times in this thread, people can very often afford the things that are important to them. What annoys me is when I hear gun owners say that the reason they don't get professional training is because they can't "afford" it when what they actually mean is that they have other, non-essential things that they'd rather spend the money on.

That's my personal experience from my surroundings, and isn't meant to be offensive to those who have taken training or who are trainers..

What surroundings? You said you've never been to a class. Are you going off of what you see on Youtube?

Edit: Re read your post. I see you mentioned talking to some trainers in your area. Guess I'd have to know what it was exactly that you didn't like in order to comment. There are certainly poor trainers out there.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Most of us go to the range, fire, and become familiar and more accurate with the firearms we carry. When I and, from what I've witnessed on forums over the years, other felt they needed pointers on improvement, many of us seek advice from forums and social media. We (gun collectors and enthusiast) aren't just buying a gun, putting one mag through it (if that), and calling it a day. Now, do I believe training classes can help make people even better, sure. We'll have to agree to disagree on whether they are a necessity, and respectfully in GEM's case, whether it should be or needs to be required by law.

I think that you just want to disagree on this subject. The only ones that I said need training is the military and law enforcement. These people are paid to protect and defend others. The better trained they are the better they can do their jobs.
I have sagested that people that carry should get some training, never said that it was a necessity.
I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, but I don’t see where we disagree.

 

[bearcreek]

I think that you just want to disagree on this subject. The only ones that I said need training is the military and law enforcement. These people are paid to protect and defend others. The better trained they are the better they can do their jobs.

This brings up something that has been briefly touched on a couple times in this thread but not really focused upon much. When it comes to this subject, I agree with the Founders of this country when they wrote the 2A. The idea was that a "well regulated" (which means well equipped and trained, in today's vernacular) militia was necessary to the security of a free state. In part, that means that it doesn't matter if a person is in the military or "law enforcement" or not. They should be "well regulated" regardless. It also, IMO, includes being "well regulated" in more things than just defensive pistol use.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

This brings up something that has been briefly touched on a couple times in this thread but not really focused upon much. When it comes to this subject, I agree with the Founders of this country when they wrote the 2A. The idea was that a "well regulated" (which means well equipped and trained, in today's vernacular) militia was necessary to the security of a free state. In part, that means that it doesn't matter if a person is in the military or "law enforcement" or not. They should be "well regulated" regardless. It also, IMO, includes being "well regulated" in more things than just defensive pistol use.

There are many people that are suited for the military. Some enlist and some don’t. And then there are those that would never make it. Our Founders most likely knew that not everyone would be able or willing to take up arms in the defense of freedom, but they recognized that everyone had the right to own firearms.
It is an individual’s choice to what type of training they think they need. Only time will tell if they made the right choice are not.

 

[DeepSouth]

First off I want to say I’m not picking on you GEM, I can just see the contrast in opinions really clearly in some of these statements. We just see the entire issue differently and I’m just trying to point out how different my thinking is.... I’m certainly not trying to convince anyone they shouldn’t get/have training, it definitely cant hurt.

The big however, is that if you can afford it and you carry a gun in public - I will say straight out it is due diligence to have a little more skill that punching a paper at 3 yards or shooting a clay bird.

Here in lies the rub, as I see it. Should we as the “firearms community” (for lack of a better term) have a standard answer for the question “What is the minimum training we should reccomend and expect? Put another way, What is the due diligence? I can assure you we want come to a consensus on that. I read about those people that bought a gun to keep in their home for protection and shot it once to make sure it worked and never shot it again, and I see no problem whatsoever with that.

If you carry a gun in public and you can screw up, should you know what you are doing? I would say so. The only reason not to have some basic competency is expense

This isn’t really true, well the last sentence isn’t, I make good money and if I wanted I could afford somekind of training. My biggest issue is time, I only get one weekend a month off, and three other days a month off, all during the week. With that said I do get 5 weeks vacation a year, so if I really wanted I could make the time. Which brings me to my main point, the term I used twice “if I wanted”

Training just isn’t something I really think I’d enjoy so I don’t really want to do it that much. Certainly not enough to invest money and time into it.

I’ll add the first sentence (the question) is the same argument someone, not necessarily anyone here, will use to let the Gov mandate this into law... I mean who decides when “you know what you are doing?”

To repeat, if you are going to be shooting in a life and death situation outside of the home, would it not be better to have idea of what's up? If you can't do a class - there are some pretty CDs by good people who aren't jerks. There are some exercises for the square range that are more than paper punching.

And this brings up my final point, I fully believe the likelihood of me being in a life or death shooting is statistically near 0. One may then ask “why carry a gun at all?” Which is a reasonable question, and the answer is simply, I like guns, I enjoy them. I do not expect to need it in a life or death situation today, tomorrow, this month, or honestly in my lifetime. That’s not why I carry it. It’s legal, extremely cheap, and I enjoy it, that’s the main reason I carry. I fully believe the experiences people train for are incredibly rare in this country, for now.


At the end of the day if I thought I’d ever need the training I’d get it, if I thought I’d enjoy it, I’d do it. But when people try to convince me to get training they’re trying to get me to spend time and money on something I don’t think I’ll need and I’m pretty sure I want enjoy.

FWIW: Yes I get my training from YouTube, I love me some Jerry Miculek, unlike most I’ve never been able to get fired up about Hickok45.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

And this brings up my final point, I fully believe the likelihood of me being in a life or death shooting is statistically near 0. One may then ask “why carry a gun at all?” Which is a reasonable question, and the answer is simply, I like guns, I enjoy them. I do not expect to need it in a life or death situation today, tomorrow, this month, or honestly in my lifetime. That’s not why I carry it. It’s legal, extremely cheap, and I enjoy it, that’s the main reason I carry.

With all due respect, based on this statement it sounds to me like you're just LARPing with a gun.

I think part of the reason I advocate training and take it so seriously is that working nights as a security guard for the last 10 years has forced me to interact with some really dicey people.

I've actually had to defend myself a couple of times. I've never had to shoot anyone but I've had to draw my gun a couple of times and when I did it wasn't anything like the people on the Internet told me it would be. The guy didn't take one look at my mighty Boomstick and run, he DARED me to shoot him.

The very first time I ever had to defend myself I was in a blind panic. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it but post training I find myself thinking my way through the situation and responding the way I was trained.

Two years ago someone started shooting in my parking lot. I never found out who it was or what it was about but at the first shot I actually remember consciously thinking to take cover behind my engine block. I remember deciding to move from my car back into the building and call the police.

I'm absolutely convinced that walking through various scenarios in training is what allowed me to think my way through my response rather than poop my pants and freeze.

The most common mistake I see people make as citizen concealed carriers is overstepping their bounds. As a security guard I get constant reinforcement training on the exact limits of my authority and most of it is applicable to my status as a civilian carrier.

As a civilian carrier I've been lucky enough to have training on when not to shoot and being certain of my target and what's beyond in every single class.

I'm still not advocating a mandatory training requirement but I really don't think you're better off with it

 

[TN Outlaw]

There's nothing wrong with a person seeking combat training. It's a good idea to improve any skill, especially one that may save your life.

I disagree a person that doesn't take a professional teachers combat class is an "irresponsible" person. I also don't think anyone who chooses to carry a Case XX pocket knife should take professional "Edged Weapons" training either nor an everyday driver needing to take a defensive driving course or race course or else risk being irresponsible. Any would be better for it but certainly not necessary.

We can be diligent in doing our own research and finding a defensive weapon that best fits us, properly familiarize ourself with it, and train until we are comfortable with it in any situation we are WILLING to be ready for. Then do our best to maintain our confidence with that weapon. That is being a responsible weapons owner.

I do believe with a mix of personal experience, range time and practice, research, and videos of trained experts that a person can become a proficient, safe, and effective gun owner. They can also become moreso with attending good courses if they so choose. Choosing not to attend a trainers course does not make a person irresponsible and is a laughable notion.

 

[DeepSouth]

With all due respect, based on this statement it sounds to me like you're just LARPing with a gun

I don’t know what that means.

I think part of the reason I advocate training and take it so seriously is that working nights as a security guard for the last 10 years has forced me to interact with some really dicey people.

Right, I totally get that. Years ago I was in the HVAC business and I went into some really, really shady places. If I still worked there and went those place I’d probably have gotten training of some kind somewhere down the line, but that’s one reason I quit that job. But now days, I’m at home or at work in an industrial environment (where I can’t carry anyway) I may go “to town” once or twice a month. By FAR the most dangerous place I go is the local dollar store, which is not a dangerous place at all.

FWIW: if I had a job that had caused me to believe I was danger getting into a armed confrontation, I’d likely quit. If for some reason I couldn’t, yeah I’d be much more interested in getting real training.

It’s entirely possible we just see the world different, I just don’t see the US as an inherently dangerous place, maybe you do.

 

[Zerodefect]

Can't say we didn't try to help.

 

[Elkins45]

The basic pistol classes at Thunder Ranch and Front Sight both require a OWB (belt) holster to participate. I will NEVER be toddling around in public with a visible gun, so that makes me more hesitant to drop $2K on a course when they don’t teach it from a CCW perspective. What makes it even funnnier is that there’s a video of Clint Smith talking about how he shoots Cowboy Action from concealment—guess he doesn’t see the irony.

 

[Browning]

The basic pistol classes at Thunder Ranch and Front Sight both require a OWB (belt) holster to participate. I will NEVER be toddling around in public with a visible gun, so that makes me more hesitant to drop $2K on a course when they don’t teach it from a CCW perspective. What makes it even funnnier is that there’s a video of Clint Smith talking about how he shoots Cowboy Action from concealment—guess he doesn’t see the irony.

Go to a different school if that bothers you. I shot an entire 1,200 rd class with an IWB holster. I just had to make sure that my clothing was out of the way each and every time when reholstering. That slowed me down some.

I was a whole lot quicker at the end of it than when I started though.

 

[Zerodefect]

Generally, advanced CCW is after pistol 1,2,3.

Class's don't get too far if half the class ND's their own leg in the first hour because of a IWB holster at 6, crossdraw, shoulder, crotch draw, etc. etc. It would be a nightmare. Shoulder, cross, and sometimes apendix, would break the 180 rule.

I've never heard of a class not allowing a kydex IWB holster at exactly 3 oclock.

 

[DeepSouth]

Can't say we didn't try to help.
View attachment 825214

I kind of can say that, what “help” has been extended?
Heck, what help is needed?


If help has been given it is help to prove what I believe to be point of the OP...

My view of training and the necessity of it differs from many, therefore I obviously have my head in the sand...

Yes, you’ve helped prove a smugness among some.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I don’t know what that means.

Live Action Role Playing.

Cosplay

 

[DeepSouth]

Live Action Role Playing.

Cosplay

That’s ironic, one of the reasons I don’t think I’d care much for most training is because many (not all) of those guys are all tacticooled out like a super swat seal, that’s just off putting to me.

I think I’d love the SASS but I’m just not on board with all the period correct dress up.
I’m just a blue jeans and t shirt guy.

Maybe I’m still missing the point.

 

[GEM]

I'm calling this one as because it is producing too many unsupported negatives about training, that frankly are just baloney if you know the quality trainer world.

No need to continue this. If you read the thread and think you will benefit from training, well and good. If you don't and you fail in a critical incident, let's hope only you are hurt.

Closed.