Are gun combat courses becoming expected?

[Trey Veston]

Saw the thread on Gunsite, and while I used to live down the road from there in Prescott Valley, I could never afford to attend their training courses.

I did attend a CCW class there in 2007 for $125 and it was excellent. But there is no way a working man can afford to blow $2k plus airfare and housing on a weekend getting lessons on combat shooting.

Not to disparage those who can afford thousands of dollars on training that they will likely never use, but there seems to be a trend among the internet firearms community that simply buying a pistol and practicing at the range regularly is grossly negligent.

The trend seems to be that not only do you spend hundreds of dollars for the firearm, but you must spend hundreds of dollars in ammo and gear and shoot weekly or else you're nothing but a hazard to others and shouldn't even bother being armed.

Spending thousands of dollars a year on training courses is now apparently expected in order to be a responsible gun owner. It is going from considered an extravagant luxury to an expected expense.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I grew up the son of a poor cop, became a poor cop for a while, and am still lower middle class and have to watch my spending. I drive a 15yr old SUV that is worth less than a Les Bauer 1911 and a weekend at Gunsite.

There are months when vehicles need repairs and insurance renewed and other expenses that even spending $50 on ammo is not possible.

I am in no way discounting the value of the training you receive at a multi-thousand dollar training facility. There are things that the average shooter doesn't know that they don't know...

But it seems that going to these courses is becoming more and more common, and possibly even expected.

Just rambling on about a subject I was ruminating about. No offense intended to anyone that spends money on them.

 

[IlikeSA]

You are paying for a handful of people's time plus the range and accessories. I have had the privilege in my career to meet some fine operators and amazing instructors, paid for by my work. They charge thousands of dollars to teach what they know (it's around $10,000 to train and equip one of our officers, who may not even make it through FTO or stay for the long term).

You personally are paying for their accumulated time learning (often through the school of hard knocks) tactical methods and shooting skills. They may teach the course 3-4 times a month, and depend on it for their livelihood. They put that together in a curriculum that logically builds on itself to make you better at what you are training for. You spend a few days, or a week, or whatever, and they are the doctors of their profession. I'm surprised it isn't more.

 

[Trey Veston]

You are paying for a handful of people's time plus the range and accessories. I have had the privilege in my career to meet some fine operators and amazing instructors, paid for by my work. They charge thousands of dollars to teach what they know (it's around $10,000 to train and equip one of our officers, who may not even make it through FTO or stay for the long term).

You personally are paying for their accumulated time learning (often through the school of hard knocks) tactical methods and shooting skills. They may teach the course 3-4 times a month, and depend on it for their livelihood. They put that together in a curriculum that logically builds on itself to make you better at what you are training for. You spend a few days, or a week, or whatever, and they are the doctors of their profession. I'm surprised it isn't more.

I am in no way discounting the value of the training you receive at a multi-thousand dollar training facility. There are things that the average shooter doesn't know that they don't know...

 

[Old Dog]

Spending thousands of dollars a year on training courses is now apparently expected in order to be a responsible gun owner. It is going from considered an extravagant luxury to an expected expense.

I'd disagree. But I do think that it behooves anyone who's jumped through the hoops to become a legal concealed carrier to obtain some training. There's always some local options that don't cost near as much as the name "gun schools." Most local indoor ranges and gun clubs offer inexpensive training sessions. Here in WA State we've got FAS, which has very reasonably priced weekend courses, yet brings in name instructors such as Mas Ayoob.

 

[Bill Raby]

I see it as about the same thing as those weekend race car driver classes. You pay a bunch of money, have some fun, and walk away with some skills that are of not much use in real life. You can also go to sniper school are learn how to be a fighter jet pilot. The fighter jet thing costs quite a lot more!

The combat shooting training is useful for some people. But not very many.

I think a lot of people go because they can't think of any more cool tactical stuff to buy for their SWAT team costume.

Most of my shooting last year was smooth bore flintlock. I don't worry too much about shooting fast or tiny groups. I just go to the shooting range to have a good time for a couple hours on the weekend.

 

[Trey Veston]

I'd disagree. But I do think that it behooves anyone who's jumped through the hoops to become a legal concealed carrier to obtain some training. There's always some local options that don't cost near as much as the name "gun schools." Most local indoor ranges and gun clubs offer inexpensive training sessions. Here in WA State we've got FAS, which has very reasonably priced weekend courses, yet brings in name instructors such as Mas Ayoob.

I wonder how effective watching videos online and then practicing the techniques at a range would be? Never really looked into those. I think as long as your fundamentals are solid such as grip and stance, then they might be pretty useful.

I know I don't have nearly enough training and my skills are rusty. Been 20 years since I've been to a Hogan's Alley or had formal training.

But, my brother is a current detective and instructor and we occasionally practice together at the range at the family cabin which has some reactive targets.

 

[Doc7]

Man, there’s a lot of derision ... directed at me? Above??

Can’t think of cool stuff to put on my tactical swat costume?
I’m practically a fudd for lords sake! I just installed my first red dot this morning!

You may notice what I put in my budget for training - 2500 in the next 2 years. My hobby money is now, and has been for many years, $112 per month. That is 150 a month plus supporting a child via Compassion for 38 a month. My peers do not understand my budget - many spend more than that in a month on beer and restaurants - BEFORE their shooting hobbies etc.

I own a 1600 dollar AR that I built over 3 years at 112 dollars a month that also went for snacks, hunting ammo, a Tikka T3, and. Weber grill.

I hardly think a 2500 training expenditure is “out of reach of the working man”, no, it’s out of the reach of the individual who doesn’t make a budget and stick to it. Dollars to donuts most of the posters on this thread will average more than 112 dollars a month in the next 2 years on their hobbies and non-essentials. I don’t get to stop at my favorite restaurant on my way home from work, Bojangles, for a 1.50 sweet potato pie on months that I buy my fishing and hunting license for the year because I dropped my 112 and that’s all I get that month. I drink water at my Monday night bible study because I’d rather have my fun money to buy a box of ammo or new black powder and primers next September. I drive a 2005 rusty Dodge Dakota.

To act like people who budget and carefully spend their hard earned, hard saved pennies are just willy nilly throwing money away like a rich wasteful person is absolutely ridiculous. I am here working my tail off for this and literally planning years ahead for a training course. Which, by the way, Tom Gresham, Jeff Cooper, the NRA, etc all recommend strongly you get.


What skills do you learn at Gunsite 250 that are not useful in real life?

 

[DeepSouth]

I have had the same thought as the OP.

To be honest, I’d have the money more so than the time. Either way I’m not willing to invest either, it’s just not that big of a deal to me. A basic cost benefit analysis just doesn’t put it in the mix for me.

I do understand the “I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it” mentality. I’m just not there in that department, I mean the extreme unlikelihood of the need is the deal breaker for myself. But like I said, I do get the mentality and I get doing just for fun/joy (if you will) of it. So if it’s your thing by all means get after it.

And to the OP’s point, I’ve got a feeling I’ll be condemned (for lack of a better word) for that view, could be wrong though.

 

[tarosean]

To act like people who budget and carefully spend their hard earned, hard saved pennies are just willy nilly throwing money away like a rich wasteful person is absolutely ridiculous. I am here working my tail off for this and literally planning years ahead for a training course.

+1

I would suggest anyone who thinks they dont need training. Go find a IDPA, USPSA or 3gun event and see just how well you do, once you are moving and thinking under pressure. That will only cost you anywhere from 10-50 bucks and 200 rounds of ammo.

 

[Odd Job]

A lot depends on your circumstances. Many moons ago when I was still in South Africa, I took on some courses because it was a necessity in my opinion. We had a lot of carjacking going on in Johannesburg and all sorts of other bad stuff too. I worked in the trauma unit and it was no surprise I found myself on an anti-hijacking course with a radiologist, orthopaedic surgeon and two paramedics. The instructor actually parked a car on the range and we fired out of and around the car. It was quite enlightening!



Then during that same time I was doing a gunshot wound research project and wanted a variety of courses to supplement that, since the material also covered ammunition and forensics. That meant a shotgun course and intermediate rifle also (I can tell you now, a select fire Galil will put a smile on your face!)

To cover pistol, shotgun and rifle, was seven courses.

 

[paulsj]

Saw the thread on Gunsite, and while I used to live down the road from there in Prescott Valley, I could never afford to attend their training courses.

I did attend a CCW class there in 2007 for $125 and it was excellent. But there is no way a working man can afford to blow $2k plus airfare and housing on a weekend getting lessons on combat shooting.

Not to disparage those who can afford thousands of dollars on training that they will likely never use, but there seems to be a trend among the internet firearms community that simply buying a pistol and practicing at the range regularly is grossly negligent.

The trend seems to be that not only do you spend hundreds of dollars for the firearm, but you must spend hundreds of dollars in ammo and gear and shoot weekly or else you're nothing but a hazard to others and shouldn't even bother being armed.

Spending thousands of dollars a year on training courses is now apparently expected in order to be a responsible gun owner. It is going from considered an extravagant luxury to an expected expense.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I grew up the son of a poor cop, became a poor cop for a while, and am still lower middle class and have to watch my spending. I drive a 15yr old SUV that is worth less than a Les Bauer 1911 and a weekend at Gunsite.

There are months when vehicles need repairs and insurance renewed and other expenses that even spending $50 on ammo is not possible.

I am in no way discounting the value of the training you receive at a multi-thousand dollar training facility. There are things that the average shooter doesn't know that they don't know...

But it seems that going to these courses is becoming more and more common, and possibly even expected.

Just rambling on about a subject I was ruminating about. No offense intended to anyone that spends money on them.

No because self-defense isn't combat in true sense of the word. Unless actually thretened with bodily harm or death most civilian gun owners should run away from the sound of gunfire.

 

[redneck2]

You may notice what I put in my budget for training - 2500 in the next 2 years. My hobby money is now, and has been for many years, $112 per month. That is 150 a month plus supporting a child via Compassion for 38 a month. My peers do not understand my budget - many spend more than that in a month on beer and restaurants - BEFORE their shooting hobbies etc.

+1. As I tell my granddaughter, life’s all about choices. Guys can seem to find money for what they can justify, and ridicule those that participate in activities they can’t justify.

They’ll buy a $50,000 pickup and carry around a bed full of air, make $700 a month payments, and bitch because they’re broke. I have a friend like this. He drives a new Duramax, his wife drives a new SUV, and they eat out every night. And he whines because he can’t afford to go with us in fishing trips to Canada. The trip is about $900, far less than a months car payments for them

If a guy would simply pay for everything with folding money, and put your change at the end of theday into a jar, by the end of the month you’ll have over $100.

If you REALLY want something, get a small pocket note book and write down everything, and I mean everything you buy every day for a month. At the end of the month go back and see where your money went. Most guys would be amazed at how much is wasted.

Where you are today is a sum total of the choices you’ve made in the past. Where you are tomorrow will depend on the choices you make today.

 

[rpenmanparker]

Trey, we are all in different circumstances. Some folks think the money for a Disney vacation is well spent. Even without the kids! That should put the range of this topic in full perspective.

I cannot dispute your position regarding the travel expenses for a handgun self-defense course. Airfare, hotel, food, share of a rental car, etc. cost me about $1,500 last year for four days at Front Sight just outside Las Vegas I attended with a friend.

And the 650 rounds of 9mm ball ammo I bought from the school rather than transporting my own cost about $250 or so.

BUT I didn’t pay a cent for the course itself or a pile of printed training material I “bought” at their store. I can’t speak for other schools, but Front Sight operates on a pyramid marketing system like Amway. Members of the school get options to buy training course admissions for almost no money and pass them on to their friends either for cheap or free. The more you use the school, the more freebies you get. A friend passed on to me a free pass for the four-day course that he had in turn been given.

And once you spend about $100 for a severely discounted high level “membership”, you will have free access to every course offered for life. It is very gimmicky, but the owner is a bit of a nut job and thinks he is building his business for the future. In any case you don’t have to spend a lot on the actual course admission. And this is for one of the most highly respected of the schools. I can tell you the trainig is superb in every respect.

I realize the travel costs are still out of reach for many, but the actual training doesn’t have to be expensive if you focus on Front Sight. (See what I did there? )

 

[Zerodefect]

Sounds like excuses are being made for substandard skill levels.

In the ''real world'', the difference between a five second draw, and a two, are pretty apparent while trying to dodge a knife wielding crazy. But go ahead, and let your ego talk you out of improving.

I think the number one reason people avoid training, is that they don't want to admit how terrible they actually are. Or are too stubborn to change for the better.

Training is cheaper than you think. Look about for less boutique classes within a one tank trip. I have Tdi in southern Ohio local to me for example. $250 per day isn't going to break your bank. Any vacation is more than that, and even simple weekend camping trips are over $100 per day.

https://www.tdiohio.com/apply/

Pistol training is the best place to start. There's just too much nonsense surrounding them. Most of that training, transitions right over to carbine or shotgun.

 

[WrongHanded]

Running away is free. Being taught how to run away tactically? That cost $349 for the Basic 2 day class, but comes with a complimentary set of running shoes.

 

[Zerodefect]

I'm teaching a class on theatrical running, while humming the theme song to Airwolf.

Worked for me throughout katrina.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

There are those that believe if you are not taking high dollar tactical courses, you will not be ready when things go bad. And then there are those that think all they need is to shoot a box or two of ammo and they are ready to take on the world.
The truth is somewhere in the middle, give or take a step to the left or right.
Back in the day there were not many places one could go to get good training. Today there's more places then you can count.
I have two friends that teach firearms courses in my local area. Manny has II Alpha Defense and Rusty has Ggogeusa The Art of Gunfighting. Both teach CCW classes and firearms classes. Depending on the level of training you are looking for, classes will run from $250 to $500. My daughter does not plan to take on the world or get in a shoot out in her neighborhood, bet she does carry a gnu. She took the class for CCW, which was $85, and then I put her in a class on fighting from your car. The class on fighting from your car was only $300. She said the coolest thing was shooting through the windshield. I also had to provide her with ammo for two days of shooting.
Back when I started carrying a handgun I looked into training in my area. Back in the early 80's there wasn't anything. One of my buddies said that every Sunday and Wednesday night, that the guys that shot action pistol matches in the area, trained at a place called The Range in Baker LA. This was only a 30 min drive for me and the range fee for the night was only $10. I started going twice a week, shooting from 150 to 300 rounds a night. The courses we fired were Steel Challenge, IPSC, and a few others. One of the guys I got to shot along side with was Jerry Miculek.
Here is what I have to say about tactical training. Check your local area for Firearms Training. See what they have to offer. Start off with basic classes, this will also depend on your skill level. Try to take a class once or twice a year.

 

[Browning]

I'd disagree. But I do think that it behooves anyone who's jumped through the hoops to become a legal concealed carrier to obtain some training. There's always some local options that don't cost near as much as the name "gun schools." Most local indoor ranges and gun clubs offer inexpensive training sessions. Here in WA State we've got FAS, which has very reasonably priced weekend courses, yet brings in name instructors such as Mas Ayoob.

^This^

I went to a Gunsite course as an older teenager (my father paid). Since then it's been mostly been local courses in the DFW area.

https://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/

Tac-Pro is in the Dallas/Ft Worth area. Bill Davison's courses are great and they've been less than $500 for years (usually $499, but occasionally they run discounts).

 

[somethingbenign]

Training is like everything else in the gun community. Some guys just think if you don't adhere to exactly the same gear, training, mindset, or opinion on particular organization they have then you are a liability or criminally negligent. Take the training you can afford (both time and cash) and remember to stretch your eye roll muscles when you read certain threads as to not pull something. If that training is limited to dry fire practice in the basement because no matter how good the budget you still have to pay off your wife's student loans, I can empathize.

 

[rpenmanparker]

With regard to Trey's comment about just practicing at a local range being regarded by some as negligent, it is important to remember that most ranges (indoor and outdoor type that I have frequented) do not allow self-defense practicing. Drawing the pistol from a holster is strictly forbidden. So the main type of self-defense practice you could get at a range would be just moving to the shooting position from the ready position and firing. The various body movements you practice in a self-defense course would not work very well in a limited range booth. So even if not negligent, such practice is at least deficient. Fortunately most of the self-defense movements and dry firing can be practiced at home if the proper safety precautions are observed.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Someone with a $150 HiPoint with oodles of training is going to be more effective than the average Les Baer owner.

1. Mindset
2. Skillset
3. Tool set

In that order.

3. Most of us can go out and buy whichever gun and accessories we want based on our preferences and budget.

2. Most gun owners do not practice much but hopefully they can be safe to themselves and others with their firearm and develop basic marksmanship. This is where most organized training builds from. Advanced tactics, techniques, and marksmanship comes later.

1. More specialized classes train the mind. Develop the warrior mindset. Prepare the individual for armed conflict and the consequences.

Training really should begin with the mindset if you plan on using your weapon as a means of personal defense. I know, BORING. Let’s get to the guns and shooting since that is all we are really interested in right. Well, you need to be prepared to use your gun and you need to know when you should buy above all, you need to be able to pull the trigger when lives need saving.

So no. I don’t think they are expected. Maybe here on THR you get that idea but people on here are enthusiasts. In general I think folks who have basic safety and marksmanship are well enough prepared to defend the home and if not, well, I guess I hope I am not their neighbor.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

My instructor friend at Elm Fork in DFW encourages everyone to take some kind of training. Job security, to be sure, but as stated above there is some sort of training for everyone, no matter the skill or level of involvement.

And we should be proficient with our tools, lest they (and we) become as dangerous as the situations we want to avoid re: firearms. Even if its just a basic safety or CC course and lots of practice and dry fire. I do believe Front Sight/Gunsite/pick yer school best serve those who are the most involved, and 90% of people don’t want to get that deep into it. Most are satisfied with basics, or slightly beyond. There’s nothing wrong with that.

I will never begrudge anyone of their ability or discipline to plan for the higher end courses. I think it’s great. But I do take issue with the idea that it is expected that everyone do the same. That ain’t how it works.

 

[Chuck R.]

Part of the issue is "how do you define need" when it comes to training.

Statistically the vast majority of US citizens go about daily unarmed and get through the day just fine. That's pretty much a fact. Not only didn't they "need" any realistic training, they didn't "need" a weapon either. Before the advent of civilian training courses, instructors, schools etc. regular folks seemed to get by without "needing" any of it. Maybe its just blind luck, but I think the odds are actually in the favor of not "needing" much of anything besides a little common sense.

There was a really decent article by Ed Lovette a few years back that captured as best he could "civilian self defense statistics" as far as training received tactics employed etc. According to his article the vast, vast, majority of civilians had no formal training. You can read a summary of it here:

https://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...bat-stats.html

14) Training by AC (armed civilian)---Overwhelmingly none, followed by a small number who had taken a CCW course and a very small amount who had fired a handgun while in the military.

Take that into consideration along with the odds of ever even having to use a gun in SD and I'd be hard pressed to believe that anyone is doomed or even ill prepared for not practicing defensive shooting religiously.

Now I'm guilty of turning training into a hobby, to the tune of a couple classes a year, IDPA and 3Gun. It all "briefs well", but practical application???? Based on my current lifestyle, and a half way decent personal risk assessment it's definitely overkill. Add to it the fact I own my own range complete with reactive targets, props barricades, swingers a mover etc. I take classes because they're fun and there's some camaraderie associated with being with like minded individuals.

A couple years ago I was in a class with a nationally know instructor that remarked: "the majority of us would be better served taking a 1st aid class" or something to that effect. Thinking about it, he was right. Combine that with watching our weight, wearing seat-belts and not doing stupid chit and we'd all probably benefit more than a defensive pistol class.

 

[Browning]

With regard to Trey's comment about just practicing at a local range being regarded by some as negligent, it is important to remember that most ranges (indoor and outdoor type that I have frequented) do not allow self-defense practicing. Drawing the pistol from a holster is strictly forbidden. So the main type of self-defense practice you could get at a range would be just moving to the shooting position from the ready position and firing. The various body movements you practice in a self-defense course would not work very well in a limited range booth. So even if not negligent, such practice is at least deficient. Fortunately most of the self-defense movements and dry firing can be practiced at home if the proper safety precautions are observed.

People could always find a different range. They are out there.

Regular ranges with booths and lines are more the norm (probably 90%), but if you hunt around you can find one. This one is about 30 mins from my house in Caddo Mills TX yesterday.

http://b-tactical.com/



The more you frequent ranges like that the more likely that they'll stay in business.

• Buy decent gun, a holster, a few spare mags and some ammo.
• Get some training from a reputable instructor.
• Practice what you've learned until you're better than you were. Videos, timers and saving targets so you can see how you did earlier with shot placement generally helps to see if you're in fact getting better.
• Find a new course on a different skill (vehicle, low light/night course, shotgun, carbine etc) and rinse and repeat.

 

[Gridley]

A couple years ago I was in a class with a nationally know instructor that remarked: "the majority of us would be better served taking a 1st aid class" or something to that effect. Thinking about it, he was right. Combine that with watching our weight, wearing seat-belts and not doing stupid chit and we'd all probably benefit more than a defensive pistol class.

Statistically quite correct, and FWIW I highly encourage anyone and everyone to take at least CPR and a basic first aid class. I'd also encourage anyone who goes to the trouble of carrying a pistol to also carry at least a few first aid essentials (pair of gloves and a CPR microshield, if nothing else).

When I was a medic I saw other medics (and physicians, nurses, etc) who looked down on anyone with such training as over-eager amateurs... but I've seen what's taught in those classes save lives. I suspect there's a lot of "operators" out there who feel the same way about someone who's only taken a basic handgun course.

I don't, because I think those basic skills are sometimes all you need.

Now, if you find it clicks with you and you enjoy learning more? Great! Never stop training - there's always more to learn, and you can always get better at what you already know. There's satisfaction to be found in mastering skills, even if you never need to use them.

And that applies both to self-defense (including with firearms) and to emergency medical care.