GBExpat
Member
Sounds to me like it all depends upon whose definition of "responsible gun owner" you depend.
Are gun combat courses becoming expected?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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Hangingrock
Member
The Armed Citizen columns are not in-depth articles thus we do not know if there was a opportunity for the de-escalation component thus the willingness to be combative applies.
The fact that some misguided people push for mandatory training doesn't make voluntary training or having the opinion that voluntary training is a good idea, a bad idea. There are plenty of things that people can and should have the right to do or not do that are bad ideas. Everything from eating at fast food restaurants to smoking to carrying a gun without decent training. All things that free people should have the right to do and all bad choices that responsible people should not make (habitually, at least). The whole not being able to afford it thing is really misguided. I've heard or read many gun owners saying that they "can't afford" training, and yet they own more than one handgun and more than one rifle, in many cases multiples of each. The OP owns at least 7 handguns. He can afford training, he's just prioritized owning handguns over professional instruction in how to use them.
Old Dog
Member
Same here, then segued into a law enforcement second career providing me with even more worthwhile training opportunities -- but I confirm that there are any number of guys out there who were way more high speed than me who went into the firearms training field but that doesn't always make them great instructors.
I had some training with an ex-SEAL, and he was just a tyrannical dick who apparently thought he was still kicking in doors in Fallujah and imparted little to our class. Conversely, had a really worthwhile one-day class (think it cost me like $75) at one of our local indoor ranges by a mild-mannered, no-name guy (don't even know what his background was) who actually had me thinking and really helped me refine my pistol shooting technique (even though I already believed I was a master).
Quoted as worth reading over.
rpenmanparker
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I did.
I agree with you OP, I watched some youtube video, and it kept playing in the background, when I went back to it, it was some clown ranting about Glock being better than 1911's.... Okay, lots of that, but WAIT! Glocks are better because of the 1911's extractor. He's of course had extraction problems wit his Sig1911, that of course does not use a standard extractor? Obviously this guys an idiot. He mentioned that hes been through "many, many training courses". It seems like every moron on with a video channel needs to do three things, 1: insist you say magazine, 2:verify its unloaded, repeatedly, in front of you, while telling you its unloaded, and 3: insist you take a $3000 training class, so you can shoot cans at 8 yards, with a %70 miss rate, once a year, but use tactical motions while you do it. Like pickup trucks, motorcycles, skiing, its become a social club/status thing, with its own culture, out of reach for its old fan base. .
"the internet firearms community".
I think everyone should get a job working with heavy industry. When I was working at Alcoa, we had forklifts driving full speed, blind, around workers. Forklifts had right-of-way, if you didn't get that, you would die. To this day, years later, I still look both ways every single time i walk across a open space more that 5' wide, or around a corner. Even at home. Situational awareness at its best
Deanimator
Member
How could you possibly know that?
Again, how can you possibly know that?
Are you saying that people should give up TV and an occasional dinner at a restaurant in order to go to Gunsite?
If I hadn't been working a regular job at the time, I'd have had a hard time swinging the cost of the initial mandatory Ohio CCW training.
Of course you managed to skip the fact that those of us working contract jobs frequently have neither vacation nor even sick days. You're not just suggesting that people working insecure jobs for relatively low pay should divert all of what little discretionary income they have to attend training, but that they should take unpaid days off to do it.
It's apparent to me that you have a VERY unrealistic impression of what the last eight years of the economy have been like for a LOT of people.
Deanimator, I understand. Things were really lean for us between 2009-2012. Times have been better recently however I am the sole support of myself, a woman that doesn't work, 3 kids that are being homeschooled, a dog & a couple of cats. I have taken one training class though it was a while back. I would like to take another but most of the time I am working 6 days a week. Then we go to church on Sunday. Soccer is starting up again & we are going to have 3 kids playing on 3 different teams. I do good most of the time to get to shoot every couple of weeks. I am fortunate that I have a few different people that will let me shoot on private land. I can draw from the holster. Run drills from the holster, etc. Yes, I do research things, use dry fire practice, watch videos & read to try to improve what I am doing. I would honestly like to be able to go to one of the big name schools but I don't see that happening right now. I am going to see if I can find another local class I can afford. Sometimes things are catch as catch can.
I know that because the majority of gun owners have things and pay for things that they don't need. This thread is about people not being able to "afford" to get professional firearms training. The fact is, most people can "afford" it, they just don't want to because they consider other things to be more important.
Gunsite specifically? No. As I said before in this thread, Gunsite is one of the most expensive training options available. Am I saying that they should give up TV and dining out in order to get professional firearms training? Yes, absolutely. I'll say it once again, for the vast majority of people, this comes down to what is a priority to them.
You must have missed my post earlier. I have never had a job where I had payed sick days or vacation days. Every day that I don't work means that I don't have money coming in. I have never, in my entire life, been payed for a day that I wasn't actually working. I didn't skip anything.
Yes, I am suggesting that because it's exactly what I do. I work in the most dangerous industry in North America and I literally live check to check for most of the year. I save money when I can get it and I attend training because it's a priority to me.
Not at all man. It hit me just as hard as anybody else. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, but again, it's all about priorities. People will put money and time towards whatever is truly important to them. Most people could simply give up cable TV for a year and they'd have enough for a good weekend training class.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
Do what you can with what you have available.
People love to talk about priorities until it hits home. TV or tithe? To many folks they think both are equally non essentials. Gas for your car to get to work? You could walk or take a bus. It can get pretty ridiculous if one keeps whittling away.
As has been mentioned most gun owners it seems buy something like a 5 shot revolver and throw it in a sock drawer and seem to make it through a BG encounter.
Practice as much as you can, dry fire and hit up a USPSA or IDPA match a few times a year and you'll be well above the curve. The cost for those things are fairly minimal.
If you have the coin and free time by all means "get your tactical on." Its by no means necessary or expected though.
People love to talk about priorities until it hits home. TV or tithe? To many folks they think both are equally non essentials. Gas for your car to get to work? You could walk or take a bus. It can get pretty ridiculous if one keeps whittling away.
As has been mentioned most gun owners it seems buy something like a 5 shot revolver and throw it in a sock drawer and seem to make it through a BG encounter.
Practice as much as you can, dry fire and hit up a USPSA or IDPA match a few times a year and you'll be well above the curve. The cost for those things are fairly minimal.
If you have the coin and free time by all means "get your tactical on." Its by no means necessary or expected though.
OP
OP
Trey Veston
Member
It's already here in Washington State. Starting in July, to buy any pistol or semi-automatic rifle, you have pay an additional $25 fee, get an approval letter from the local chief of police, and show proof that you have attended an approved firearms safety course within the past 5 years.
As of now, there is no list of what is "an approved firearms safety course". I've been told by my FFL that typical CCW and firearms proficiency courses do not have the required elements specified by the new law.
So my last official training was at Gunsite in 2007. I took a CCW class in Iowa in 1995. I was in the Navy where I received some unique combat firearms training, then went into the Army and was a member of a Recon Combat Engineer squad. Federal LEO academy in 1999. Occasionally train with my dad, former FBI and police chief, and my brother, a current Detective and SWAT instructor.
But I can't legally buy a pistol in Washington... This is where America is headed and some here seem just fine with that. Sad.
Deanimator
Member
That alone shows just how far out of touch with most people's reality you are.
You apparently think that people, even most active shooters, are going to deep six their normal day to day lives to get the training YOU think they need.
westernrover
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There is no need to resent the insinuation that you should attend a costly training course. All you need is to be busy about a less costly substitute.
A gun is a weapon that allows a wimp to defeat Goliath or Conan. Sometimes, not much more than mere possession is enough to keep the wimp from becoming a victim. If anyone is satisfied with that, it doesn't concern me. But there is a lot more proficiency to be gained in the martial art of combat shooting. Those who attain a degree of mastery and are also able to teach others are worthy of their wages. But the proposition they offer to teach can be weighed against alternatives. Local teachers whose credentials, accomplishments and facilities may not be as impressive, can still be effective in teaching the basics. And there is a maturity in the mastery of the basics. I would even posit that good video-based training can be effective in inculcating the basics, but that it must be accompanied by purposeful practice. If you can go to the range on a regular basis, go with a purposeful plan of action. Know what you are going to be working on. Set goals, and measure your performance. There are lots of ways to measure: score targets (not necessarily bullseye if that's not your goal, but you can still count hits on a plate vs. misses), use a shot timer (but you don't need to live by it), video yourself. There are numerous methods, drills, and exercises you can do. Measure your performance with a meaningful metric based on the goal of the drill or exercise.
I think one of the key things for a lot of people is to stop fussing about their equipment and start training and practicing. People think too much about the gun, improving the gun, getting a better gun, getting a different gun, the ammo, getting different ammo, or a different holster, and on and on. If you spend half the time a lot of people spend thinking about new stuff, thinking about and working on improving your skills, you won't have any reason to resent the insinuation that you could be training more (via deluxe courses or otherwise).
A gun is a weapon that allows a wimp to defeat Goliath or Conan. Sometimes, not much more than mere possession is enough to keep the wimp from becoming a victim. If anyone is satisfied with that, it doesn't concern me. But there is a lot more proficiency to be gained in the martial art of combat shooting. Those who attain a degree of mastery and are also able to teach others are worthy of their wages. But the proposition they offer to teach can be weighed against alternatives. Local teachers whose credentials, accomplishments and facilities may not be as impressive, can still be effective in teaching the basics. And there is a maturity in the mastery of the basics. I would even posit that good video-based training can be effective in inculcating the basics, but that it must be accompanied by purposeful practice. If you can go to the range on a regular basis, go with a purposeful plan of action. Know what you are going to be working on. Set goals, and measure your performance. There are lots of ways to measure: score targets (not necessarily bullseye if that's not your goal, but you can still count hits on a plate vs. misses), use a shot timer (but you don't need to live by it), video yourself. There are numerous methods, drills, and exercises you can do. Measure your performance with a meaningful metric based on the goal of the drill or exercise.
I think one of the key things for a lot of people is to stop fussing about their equipment and start training and practicing. People think too much about the gun, improving the gun, getting a better gun, getting a different gun, the ammo, getting different ammo, or a different holster, and on and on. If you spend half the time a lot of people spend thinking about new stuff, thinking about and working on improving your skills, you won't have any reason to resent the insinuation that you could be training more (via deluxe courses or otherwise).
Jeb Stuart
member
Well said Westernrover,
You can take high dollar classes to learn new skills all the time. But training to me is getting out each day and practicing those skills. Drawing on a consistent basis, practicing point and shoot skills each week etc. Personally I am not in to the all out tactical training many of you guys seem to be in. I watch video's, read, etc. I have a course set up in my backyard and train a lot with BB and Pellet pistols. (mostly for point and shoot skills) I love shooting and I love guns. Have been shooting all my life. I have no desire to compete, other than with myself. I can practice the basic skills of fast drawing and point shooting with a air gun. I go to the power burner range once a week . I have no desire for to enroll in a $2500 class, I would rather put that into ammo. I shoot mainly for "Fun" and enjoyment. I train mostly with drawing and point and shoot skills, indoor range and outdoor range with steel plates. . Beyond that I am not interested. Besides, I spend too much money on gun related items as it is.
You can take high dollar classes to learn new skills all the time. But training to me is getting out each day and practicing those skills. Drawing on a consistent basis, practicing point and shoot skills each week etc. Personally I am not in to the all out tactical training many of you guys seem to be in. I watch video's, read, etc. I have a course set up in my backyard and train a lot with BB and Pellet pistols. (mostly for point and shoot skills) I love shooting and I love guns. Have been shooting all my life. I have no desire to compete, other than with myself. I can practice the basic skills of fast drawing and point shooting with a air gun. I go to the power burner range once a week . I have no desire for to enroll in a $2500 class, I would rather put that into ammo. I shoot mainly for "Fun" and enjoyment. I train mostly with drawing and point and shoot skills, indoor range and outdoor range with steel plates. . Beyond that I am not interested. Besides, I spend too much money on gun related items as it is.
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I love how the dollar amount keeps going up so people can have their excuse to not do anything. $2000, then $2500. What next? $3000? Do I have $4000?
Posters have already listed local options that they've taken for $200 to $500 for classes. Not much need to pay for airfare and lodging for 5 days as well as tuition and ammo half a continent away when you likely have multiple options within an hour drive from your house and it costs less than what you might spend at a steakhouse or for a medium priced pistol and you have several of them. Some people have a dozen pistols and no training. That's like stocking up on pianos and not being able to play.
If someone doesn't want to take a training course because they think that they can do alright with watching YouTube videos or with just owning a gun period and maybe the manual that came with their pistol just say that.
YouTube videos can't interact with you though. They can't correct bad habits or interact with you as a person or as a shooter.
I mean if you're eating top ramen and hating it and you're barely scraping by, that's one thing. I'm betting that's not the case for most of the posters here. They can afford it, they just don't want to. That's fine, whatever. Just stand on that position. Don't keep raising the dollar amount artificially and try to pretend that only the rich and famous can get training.
Posters have already listed local options that they've taken for $200 to $500 for classes. Not much need to pay for airfare and lodging for 5 days as well as tuition and ammo half a continent away when you likely have multiple options within an hour drive from your house and it costs less than what you might spend at a steakhouse or for a medium priced pistol and you have several of them. Some people have a dozen pistols and no training. That's like stocking up on pianos and not being able to play.
If someone doesn't want to take a training course because they think that they can do alright with watching YouTube videos or with just owning a gun period and maybe the manual that came with their pistol just say that.
YouTube videos can't interact with you though. They can't correct bad habits or interact with you as a person or as a shooter.
I mean if you're eating top ramen and hating it and you're barely scraping by, that's one thing. I'm betting that's not the case for most of the posters here. They can afford it, they just don't want to. That's fine, whatever. Just stand on that position. Don't keep raising the dollar amount artificially and try to pretend that only the rich and famous can get training.
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rpenmanparker
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It is all about priorities just as you say. I think folks who put advanced training behind everyday comfort are doing it right.
BTW, people keep mentioning Gunsite and using that as the gold standard of high priced courses (even though others have continually pushed local courses for the most part).
I haven't looked up their tuition costs in awhile so I didn't know what it is currently. $1750 for 5 days.
https://www.gunsite.com/classes/250-defensive-pistol-class/
I haven't looked up their tuition costs in awhile so I didn't know what it is currently. $1750 for 5 days.
https://www.gunsite.com/classes/250-defensive-pistol-class/
rpenmanparker
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Right, but as I said above, you can attend Front Sight, another high quality school, for essentially zero if you know someone who is a “member”. If you register on their site, you will be inundated with offers for low cost membership. I bet you could place a WTB inquiry in the marketplace here on THR and find someone who would sell you a 4-day class attendance pass for $100 or so. They are floating around like mosquitoes on the bayou in summer.
Sure. I was just listing what Gunsite actually costs in tuition so people actually know instead of making stuff up.
Over and over again posters have listed lower priced alternatives, we kept coming back to Gunsite though. Might as well spit out the truth regarding their actual tuition.
GunnyUSMC
Member
When you get right down to it, taking training classes is not required. It’s not expected either. But what is expected is that if you have a gun for self defense, you should know how to use it.
Training is an option. Some can afford and some can’t. What I suggest, if you’re interested, is that you check your local area to see what is available. You will never know if you can’t afford something until you know what it cost.
For those on a tight budget, I understand that it’s hard, but it’s not impossible. Not everyone need one of those high speed, low drag, engage multiple targets type of classes. Hell, I don’t believe that most of the people that take those type of classes really need them. But it doesn’t cost anything to look to see what is offered in your local area.
My friend Manny teaches CCW classes at the Bass Pro in Denham Springs, LA. His company is called II Alpha Defense. He offers classes from basic to high speed. Here he is in a video. Look at his right wrist and you will see that he wears paracord bracelets made by me.
Training is an option. Some can afford and some can’t. What I suggest, if you’re interested, is that you check your local area to see what is available. You will never know if you can’t afford something until you know what it cost.
For those on a tight budget, I understand that it’s hard, but it’s not impossible. Not everyone need one of those high speed, low drag, engage multiple targets type of classes. Hell, I don’t believe that most of the people that take those type of classes really need them. But it doesn’t cost anything to look to see what is offered in your local area.
My friend Manny teaches CCW classes at the Bass Pro in Denham Springs, LA. His company is called II Alpha Defense. He offers classes from basic to high speed. Here he is in a video. Look at his right wrist and you will see that he wears paracord bracelets made by me.
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Jeb Stuart
member
I love how the dollar amount keeps going up so people can have their excuse to not do anything. $2000, then $2500. What next? $3000? Do I have $4000?
Posters have already listed local options that they've taken for $200 to $500 for classes. Not much need to pay for airfare and lodging for 5 days as well as tuition and ammo half a continent away when you likely have multiple options within an hour drive from your house and it costs less than what you might spend at a steakhouse or for a medium priced pistol and you have several of them. Some people have a dozen pistols and no training. That's like stocking up on pianos and not being able to play.
If someone doesn't want to take a training course because they think that they can do alright with watching YouTube videos or with just owning a gun period and maybe the manual that came with their pistol just say that.
YouTube videos can't interact with you though. They can't correct bad habits or interact with you as a person or as a shooter.
I mean if you're eating top ramen and hating it and you're barely scraping by, that's one thing. I'm betting that's not the case for most of the posters here. They can afford it, they just don't want to. That's fine, whatever. Just stand on that position. Don't keep raising the dollar amount artificially and try to pretend that only the rich and famous can get training.
Yep, don't want to. Have no desire at all. And as I said, have been shooting for decades, love to shoot each week, belong to a club, have three yearly memberships to different ranges. And I train often and have a backyard full of targets for fast point and shoot skills. . Don't really care if someone does not like it or not. If a class is $2500, or $50.00, Forget it. I will put the money toward ammo or a range membership, a learning video on shooting skills or beer. If some folks want to take classes till the Sun don't shine, that is fine with me.
That said. Yes, many of the new shooters need classes and a whole lot of training I thought I made the fact very clear in my original Post. You want it said then I will repeat. I do not want to spend money on a class. I do not want, need or desire to go beyond the point I am at other than honing the skills I do have. And that alone is a whole lot of money and time in itself.
And it has nothing to going beyond comfort. And please, don't start thinking because someone does not take all kinds of tactical training courses they are not good at shooting or EDC,.And yes, I believe someone can watch a training video and take a drill by themselves and hone that skill. I can. If you cannot and need the extra coaching that is fine. I fully support you in that.
The comment "
"If someone doesn't want to take a training course because they think that they can do alright with watching YouTube videos or with just owning a gun period and maybe the manual that came with their pistol just say that."
Well, that is going way beyond what anyone said. Just like you say raising the Price to the levels of high end, your comment is going to the other end of the spectrum.
I doubt anyone on this forum believes that or adheres to that. Most members seem to be very active shooter, and experienced shooting enthusiast.
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