Are gun combat courses becoming expected?

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I've never had a course beyond my required CCW class 20+ years ago. I would like to, but I'm unaware if anyone offers a course even remotely close to where I live. I resolve to do a Google search today and find out.

After watching a couple of videos by Clint Smith a couple of months ago, I decided to look into attending Thunder Ranch. With travel and ammo the true cost would probably be closer to $3K for me. Would I love to do it? Sure, but I'm not going to. I think given my likelihood of being in a gunfight my money is better spent elsewhere. Now, if I could find a local course for $200 or so, and the instructor isn't some sort of tacticlown then sign me up. I'mm sure there are things I could learn that just might save my life one day.

Regarding the OPs question: my sense is that sampling the opinions of gunners based on the internet probably gives a skewed sample, so I have no idea if there's really any sort of expectation. People who post gun stuff on forums and Facebook groups just might not be near the median sample.

One thing I do think is that it's possible to go the other direction and become almost a training junkie, in the same way that people become preppers and hoard guns and ammo not for fun of shooting them but for the dar eventuality that lurks in the back of their mind. If you spend 90% of your available free time training for gunfights then how much fun is the remaining 10%? I follow an interesting blog from someone who lives one state over and there's always a new post about attending some sort of shooting or fighting school somewhere. In one photo everyone is wearing plate carriers and carrying breaching doors with AR carbines. That's hardly something a civilian does, making me question just ow useful this expensive school is. Now if gun school is your idea of fun (and I can www how some of them would be since I enjoy shooting) then great, but if you spend your every free moment in gun school then maybe you should take a step back and get a little balance in your life. I have a friend who fishes at least 50 weekends a year. Guess what is the only thing he ever wants to talk about?

I'v never had to transition from my carbine to my pistol. I pray to God I never will. I'm not sure what civilian needs that kind of training, but if you watch YouTube it sure seems like a whole bunch of people desperately need to master it.
 
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Deanimator said:
That alone shows just how far out of touch with most people's reality you are.

You apparently think that people, even most active shooters, are going to deep six their normal day to day lives to get the training YOU think they need.
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People's "reality" as it relates to the subject of this thread, is what they make it. If you consider having cable TV to be more important than getting good weapons training then you can certainly do that. That's your right. Just don't pretend that you can't afford training. You can, you just don't think it's important enough. I'll say this again too, since you seem to be missing some of my posts, at no time have I said that I think training should be mandatory to own a gun. I said that I thought it was the responsible thing to do. My "reality" is that I believe a high level of competence with weapons is extremely important as a free man. That means I prioritize it over some non essentials, like television.

rpenmanparker said:
It is all about priorities just as you say. I think folks who put advanced training behind everyday comfort are doing it right.
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No one, including me, said anything about putting training over everyday comfort. My family is comfortable, happy and healthy. I said that most people could give up non essential things , like TV and fast food, in order to get good training.
 
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Elkins45 said:
I've never had a course beyond my required CCW class 20+ years ago. I would like to, but I'm unaware if anyone offers a course even remotely close to where I live. I resolve to do a Google search today and find out.
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Check out TDI. Great place and right across the river from KY. https://www.tdiohio.com/home_page/ You're not going to find any decent class for $20 though.
 
Browning said:
Sure. I was just listing what Gunsite actually costs in tuition so people actually know instead of making stuff up.

Over and over again posters have listed lower priced alternatives, we kept coming back to Gunsite though. Might as well spit out the truth regarding their actual tuition.
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My point was that Front Sight lists their courses for similar money, $1,500 and up. It just doesn't really cost that much to go there. I went for four days for free.
 
rpenmanparker said:
My point was that Front Sight lists their courses for similar money, $1,500 and up. It just doesn't really cost that much to go there. I went for four days for free.
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I'm a member of Front Sight. Might eventually attend but in the mean time I'm rather tired of their extremely annoying marketing tactics.
 
bearcreek said:
I'm a member of Front Sight. Might eventually attend but in the mean time I'm rather tired of their extremely annoying marketing tactics.
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It's horrible, I agree. I unsubscribed from their emails, and that helped a lot. I still get some recorded phone calls from Ignatius, but not very often. I just hang up. But I was able to buy a Commander level membership from a friend of a friend for $100 allowing me to go to any course I ever want for free. I was able to use their bonus "cash" to buy all of the teaching materials from the course I attended as well as a few other odds and ends at the company store. I can put up with the annoyance for that. I will tell you their facility is amazing. 50 huge ranges about 30 yards or more deep each and set up for 24 students at each. 12 at a time with the other 12 acting as buddies behind the active shooters. And their staff is ultra-professional. How people can be that nice and that serious about a dangerous activity both at the same time is incredible.
 
My real love has been running. I was dedicated to it since middle school. Just loved the sport. Trained hard all my life, attended many classes, many coaches, later became a coach etc. I was really OCD about it. Most of my life, I trained twice a day, am and then pm. Ran intervals until I pissed blood. Then much later, I decided I just did not care for the competition any longer. And one day took off for a nice pleasant run through the Forrest. It was wonderful. Totally relaxing. And from then on, I ran for total enjoyment. It is the same now with shooting. I just like to shoot guns, learn about them. No, I cannot shoot a guy out of a three story building while shooting at two others across the street but do pretty good at drawing the gun and quickly hitting center mass.
If someone feels they need so much advanced skills, or live in a neighborhood where you need those skills, than I see nothing wrong with it. Just not for me. And it is not about the money. It is about relaxing and fun times. A Sunday afternoon of just plinking at tin cans is more fun than a lot of tactical drills and running from position to position etc.
 
Having read a good chunk of this thread, I would like to make a suggestion. How many of you would be willing to ask the Moderators for a sticky for a list of recommended trainers ?

Just people that members have used and a bit about what they liked. No going negative, if you went to a dud, just don't mention it. If a facilities quality has slipped then mention it elsewhere. If enough have seen the problem then the Mod can be asked to remove that particular recommendation.

The post format would be something like this:
Organization: (the company proving the instruction)
URL: (so people can find more information)
Course title:
Trainer: (the people actually doing it)
Location:
What I liked about this course:
​

It would help a lot of people find local (or near local) quality training. I will use myself as an example. I underwent some very good training in my twenties; but that was more than half of my lifetime ago. I now work in SW Kansas, I am not seeing a lot of training within a reasonable driving distance. I am on the end of a flight spoke; so, air travel is slow, with a single flight in and out of this town.

There are a few classes within 300 miles of me (have to draw a line somewhere). However, most of those are basic CCW classes. Of the few available I would like to see some reviews before spending money and a day driving there and back.
 
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I find that many folks can afford to do anything they want...but then they can't do something else. You can only spend your money once, and then it is gone.
 
Hasaf said:
Having read a bood chunk of this thread, I would like to make a suggestion. How many of you would be willing to ask the Moderators for a sticky for a list of recommended trainers ?

Just people that members have used and a bit about what they liked. No going negative, if you went to a dud, just don't mention it. If a facilities quality has slipped then mention it elsewhere. If enough have assen the problem then the Mod can be asked to remove that particular recommendation.

The post format would be something like this:
Organization: (the company proving the instruction)
URL: (so people can find more information)
Course title:
Trainer: (the people actually doing it)
Location:
What I liked about this course:
​

It would help a lot of people find local (or near local) quality training. I will use myself as an example. I underwent some very good training in my twenties; but that was more than half of my lifetime ago. I now work in SW Kansas, I am not seeing a lot of training within a reasonable driving distance. I am on the end of a flight spoke; so, air travel is slow, with a single flight in and out of this town.

There are a few classes within 300 miles of me (have to draw a line somewhere). However, most of those are basic CCW classes. Of the few available I would like to see some reviews before spending money and a day driving there and back.
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This strikes me as a good idea.
 
Trey Veston said:
Spending thousands of dollars a year on training courses is now apparently expected in order to be a responsible gun owner.
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I don't see this. Yes, you should train if you're going to use a gun so you can be familiar with it and be sufficiently accurate and getting to local training or friendly competitive defensive shooting events can keep you in good shape, but there are plenty of alternatives to paying for a big name big training facility like Gunsite.
 
Jeb Stuart said:
Yep, don't want to. Have no desire at all. And as I said, have been shooting for decades, love to shoot each week, belong to a club, have three yearly memberships to different ranges. And I train often and have a backyard full of targets for fast point and shoot skills. . Don't really care if someone does not like it or not. If a class is $2500, or $50.00, Forget it. I will put the money toward ammo or a range membership, a learning video on shooting skills or beer. If some folks want to take classes till the Sun don't shine, that is fine with me.
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And like I said, that's fine. Don't find it beneficial to you? Great, don't go then.

I'm just saying don't keep on falsely upping the dollar amount when the information is right there in the web. Someone might actually be willing to go and they might get the impression that it's more out of reach financially than it is.

Like multiple people have said though start with your local range. Others have also listed at least four alternate trainers which are less expensive (Front Sight, Tac-Pro, TDI and II Alpha Defense).

And yes, I believe someone can watch a training video and take a drill by themselves and hone that skill. I can. If you cannot and need the extra coaching that is fine. I fully support you in that.
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If you want to believe that you can duplicate something that you saw on YouTube without formal instruction as a beginning shooter (I don't know if you are or not), that you can repeat it correctly, make that possibly incorrect movement muscle memory and believe that this will somehow have a beneficial effect if you're ever forced to defend yourself that's fine.

In my opinion you're mistaken.

Perhaps surgical procedures and flying airplanes can also be taught with no formal instruction via YouTube in the future.

The comment "
"If someone doesn't want to take a training course because they think that they can do alright with watching YouTube videos or with just owning a gun period and maybe the manual that came with their pistol just say that."

Well, that is going way beyond what anyone said. Just like you say raising the Price to the levels of high end, your comment is going to the other end of the spectrum.
I doubt anyone on this forum believes that or adheres to that. Most members seem to be very active shooter, and experienced shooting enthusiast.
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I was actually responding to this from earlier in the thread ...

I wonder how effective watching videos online and then practicing the techniques at a range would be? Never really looked into those. I think as long as your fundamentals are solid such as grip and stance, then they might be pretty useful.
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That actually is a phenomenon in some gun circles. Some people believe that watching YouTube equals instruction. It does not. There's no correction, interaction or feedback.

However if someone already has some training under their belt then they can get some good ideas from YouTube for drills. Some of those will aid them in transitions, speeding up, slowing down under pressure, becoming more accurate and taking those little extra unneeded steps out of the equation in their movements in order to become smoother then some YouTube videos can aid shooters with that.

That's generally more after they've hit the ground running though.
 
I know some folks that have had some $$$ training.
They still think slow and are pretty lousy shooters.
But hey, they took the classes.
Corporate culture poisoning.......as though a class makes a difference.
It might, but to that way of thinking.......it automatically does.

College or combat classes.............depends on the student.
Have met guys shooting Wilsons, and worked with folks having PnDs.......and they were inept as hell.

Classes might help, but there has to be something to work with up front.
Alas.............most folks are beyond help.
 
Browning said:
And like I said, that's fine. Don't find it beneficial to you? Great, don't go then.

I'm just saying don't keep on falsely upping the dollar amount when the information is right there in the web. Someone might actually be willing to go and they might get the impression that it's more out of reach financially than it is.

Like multiple people have said though start with your local range. Others have also listed at least four alternate trainers which are less expensive (Front Sight, Tac-Pro, TDI and II Alpha Defense).



If you want to believe that you can duplicate something that you saw on YouTube without formal instruction as a beginning shooter (I don't know if you are or not), that you can repeat it correctly, make that possibly incorrect movement muscle memory and believe that this will somehow have a beneficial effect if you're ever forced to defend yourself that's fine.

In my opinion you're mistaken.

Perhaps surgical procedures and flying airplanes can also be taught with no formal instruction via YouTube in the future.




I was actually responding to this from earlier in the thread ...



That actually is a phenomenon in some gun circles. Some people believe that watching YouTube equals instruction. It does not. There's no correction, interaction or feedback.

However if someone already has some training under their belt then they can get some good ideas from YouTube for drills. Some of those will aid them in transitions, speeding up, slowing down under pressure, becoming more accurate and taking those little extra unneeded steps out of the equation in their movements in order to become smoother then some YouTube videos can aid shooters with that.

That's generally more after they've hit the ground running though.
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For God sake Man, I never up'd any price. I just used the in a earlier post. And AGAIN, I clearly said for Gosh sake, new shooters would do well to take a training course. I did when I was 12 competed with 22.rifles for many years. Took a number of courses and pistol courses in the Army
. And if you do not believe a person can take a drill from a training video and develop it fine. I Can and you need to focus on your own ability rather than telling me what I can and cannot do. If you cannot take a learned drill from watching a video and apply it, fine you can't do it. No where did I say a beginner should do this. No, I am not a beginner shooter and you know this from the amount of post I have done on this forum as I know you are not one either.
I can also watch a drill on a video and take a BB or Pellet gun and train over and over on the drill. Then go to the range and continue the training. I can get it down solid. Possibly even better than yourself with a paid trainer. And just because you learned from a paid trainer, means squat if you do not do on going practice. And a lot of practice.

I have no idea of your skills. but I am fully aware of mine and know my limitations. Please stop with the assumptions.
That said, Gunsight have many types of classes. If at my age I decide I need to storm a building with a AR, then it would do me well to take that class with a professional trainer.
 
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Jeb Stuart said:
For God sake Man, I never up'd any price. I just used the in a earlier post.
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Perhaps it's better to just check online than use incorrect information.

I actually didn't quote you regarding the dollar amount (you weren't the only one doing it, which is why I didn't quote anyone in particular). You just spoke up. Guilty conscience or something.

you need to focus on your own ability rather than telling me what I can and cannot do.
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Browning : And like I said, that's fine. Don't find it beneficial to you? Great, don't go then.
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I have no idea of your skills. but I am fully aware of mine and know my limitations. Please stop with the assumptions.
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I actually don't have any assumptions.

I don't know you or anything about you. None of my comments were about you personally as an individual.

They were about training.

Rather than have this turn into a negative tit for tat exchange where you're obviously taking my comments as a personal assault for some reason and get this thread shut down when it could be beneficial to someone new to shooting just 'last word' me and we'll conclude this conversation.
 
Well, if there is any place I'd expect people to discuss firearms training, it would be at a firearms forum. It sure doesn't come up at my work or in front of my customers. :)

Picking priorities is correct. Changes in jobs and incomes happens. I made more money adjusted for inflation back in 2002 and had a less expensive family to take care of.

Cable TV, lololol. I went to the antenna a year ago. Saves about $80 per month, but we aren't cutting internet. Gotta have the internet for work as well as play.

Cars? The four in our driveway were bought used and totalled $26,100 bought over the last five years. Cash for three, one with 40% down. Kid's, wife's, and mine. Not counting two others that belong to two other kids not living at home.

Gotta keep those cars running, too. Good thing I can do most of the work myself and places like Rock Auto exist.

Vacations? Don't take them. Money is tied up for community/local college for two of the four kids right now.

Don't forget setting aside cash to pay for health care. Super high deductibles and all that.

One of my priorities is to protect my family, but the other is to provide for my family. We're still working our way up from when my wife got laid off in the summer 2016. Lost good health insurance at the same time.

I'm definitely guilty of collecting guns instead of getting training. I still shoot when I can, but I've really cut back to .22LR, 9mm, and airguns.

Now that I've played my version of a "poor card", I will tell you I do intend to take local firearms training once the kids are on their own and when my budget has more in it for something like that. There are several local ranges that offer training. I can't wait. :)
 
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For those in Washington, and wondering about the training that'll be required to buy a pistol or semiauto rifle come 1 July, here's a link to Marty Hayes' great interpretation of I-1639 (he's an attorney and retired police officer, runs Firearms Academy of Seattle):
https://www.firearmsacademy.com/i-1639/understanding-i-1639
Even though I have to qualify at least three times a year, go through deadly force training and have in-service at least every other year that covers suicide prevention stuff, I don't think my work training covers "talking to children about gun safety" and we surely don't get down into the weeds on the gun storage crap:
(2) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a semiautomatic assault rifle to the purchaser thereof until:
(a) The purchaser provides proof that he or she has completed a recognized firearm safety training program within the last five years that, at a minimum, includes instruction on:
(i) Basic firearms safety rules;
(ii) Firearms and children, including secure gun storage and talking to children about gun safety;
(iii) Firearms and suicide prevention;
(iv) Secure gun storage to prevent unauthorized access and use;
(v) Safe handling of firearms; and
(vi) State and federal firearms laws, including prohibited firearms transfers.

So everyone not in Washington, just stand by, especially if you're in a blue state -- coming next to a state near you.
 
A very long time ago I had some really good teachers (as in they had been there and done that as opposed to most experts today who have read about it). I watched learned and most importantly listened (I was highly motivated).

While today's self proclaimed experts try to convince folks it's all new truth is the down and dirty hasn't changed since gunpowder was invented.

Do I think you need training. Yes. Exactly one good course on the mechanics and safety. After that just practice the basics. Odds are should you ever need a firearm nothing you learned in all of the fancy classes will apply. Stuff just happens that way.
 
Old Dog said:
For those in Washington, and wondering about the training that'll be required to buy a pistol or semiauto rifle come 1 July, here's a link to Marty Hayes' great interpretation of I-1639 (he's an attorney and retired police officer, runs Firearms Academy of Seattle):
https://www.firearmsacademy.com/i-1639/understanding-i-1639
Even though I have to qualify at least three times a year, go through deadly force training and have in-service at least every other year that covers suicide prevention stuff, I don't think my work training covers "talking to children about gun safety" and we surely don't get down into the weeds on the gun storage crap:
(2) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a semiautomatic assault rifle to the purchaser thereof until:
(a) The purchaser provides proof that he or she has completed a recognized firearm safety training program within the last five years that, at a minimum, includes instruction on:
(i) Basic firearms safety rules;
(ii) Firearms and children, including secure gun storage and talking to children about gun safety;
(iii) Firearms and suicide prevention;
(iv) Secure gun storage to prevent unauthorized access and use;
(v) Safe handling of firearms; and
(vi) State and federal firearms laws, including prohibited firearms transfers.

So everyone not in Washington, just stand by, especially if you're in a blue state -- coming next to a state near you.
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Personally I think that would be a great course for beginner shooters. From the basics to the laws. And I can see why they included "Suicide Prevention". Especially with teens etc. At my local indoor range, I would say 70% of the shooter's do not know how to properly handle a gun much less the safety of the gun. I just wish they would can the damn cell phones and obey the sign that say's NO CELL PHONES. I may be the odd man out, but considering what I see going on a some ranges, I wish they had some kind of safety requirements that you had to demonstrate. The Club I belong to does. And since this is a private club, a membership in the NRA is required. Also membership in the Virginia shooters, which is very active in Legislation. And a great way to keep abreast of changing laws etc.

lHP7L0O.png
 
No, not for everyone. Now, anyone would benefit from training.

If my 77yo mother can keep all her shots center mass with her 38Spl and 9mm at 7 yards, that will most likely be enough to defend herself in her house.
There are countless people with guns and a minimum of practice that have successfully defended their lives and others from threats. May not be ideal but, that is how it is for some.

I would guess that gun owners with formal gun class training are the 98-99th percentile of owners. Everybody would benefit from Skip Barber's driving school but few will take the classes. Are the drivers who don't irresponsible drivers? I'd say no, they just aren't as highly trained.
 
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