Are Les Baer, Wilson, and Ed Brown pistols worth the money?

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Fatelvis

Fatelvis

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I admit I love quality pistols, but are these "semi-custom" pistols really worth thier ultra-high prices? Do they shoot that much better than say a Kimber, or is just the fact that they`re fitted nicely, and fun to play with away from the range? I just cant get myself to toss that much coin at a pistol, that to me, is just a little tighter, and maybe a little more accurate than a Kimber, SA, etc. But 3X the money? COME ON!!!
 
I suppose it depends on just how much discretionary coin you have to toss.

I’ll let you know what I think in about 14-16 weeks though….


Chuck
 
Yes, yes and yes ...

find someone with, say, a Nighthawk Predator, a Wilson CQB or an Ed Brown Executive Carry ... compare the pistols with, for example, a Springfield Loaded, Professional or the most expensive Kimber (whatever that may be at the moment). Handle 'em; examine 'em. Shoot 'em. If you can't detect the differences, perhaps you should stick to Glocks. As much of an Springfield Armory fan as I am (I've got a few) ... I'm always saving for a new custom 1911.

And of course you're paying for the name. Why would someone need a Lexus over a loaded Toyota Camry? An Escalade over a loaded Tahoe?
 
All of my guns outshoot me. The only way I can tell if one is more accurate than the other is to shoot them off a solid rest. Shooting off-hand, I'd never be able to tell the difference.

Perhaps the question you should ask yourself is what the end purpose of getting an Ed Brown, Les Baer, Wilson, Kimber or Springfield pistol might be.

If it's for carry, I would go with a reliable pistol that's not exhorbitantly expensive. Why? One reason is that daily carry is going to take a toll on the finish. A lot of THR members have $2K as fun money. I don't. An Ed Brown pistol would be one of my most cherished treasures. Secondly, if I'm ever in a situation where I have to draw and fire while shaking and sweating and just trying to hit COM, I don't think that the extra .1 MOA I might get from an Ed Brown or other $$ pistol is going to make a difference. And, if I get into a shoot situation, that pistol is going to be lying in a damp, dark rust-prone evidence room for years.

If the pistol is for range only, and the $2K isn't going to take food off the table, then why not indulge yourself if you're comfortable with the price?

This past weekend, I was in my local shop. The part-timer there was wearing an Ed Brown Bobtail Kobra Carry in a Galco Miami Classic (a holster that's hard on the gun's finish). I know the guy, and I know he doesn't make a gazillion bucks. It then occurred to me that he only carries that gun for about four hours a week, when he's at the shop. Given my circumstances, my pistol is in a holster pretty much seven days a week. And it shows.

In the end, though, it sounds like you're questioning whether the extra bucks are worth it. Judging from the tone of your post, I'd bet an Ed Brown pistol that you'll go with a Springfield or Kimber. ;)
 
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Some of them are to me, maybe not to you

I'd be inclined to go one-off from a custom shop rather than the best from Ed Brown for similar money. The lower priced TRS or CQB are in my not so humble opinion worth the money and priced fairly for what you get.

2 points

1. Capitalism works. People don't stay in business with overpriced goods for the long haul. The differences are real and cost that much - Kimber has been a great value and displaced Colt as the leading maker. Neither Kimber, nor Colt, nor the Springfield custom shop has displaced the names you mention.

2. The differences may not matter to you
 
Les Baer - YES, ABSOLUTELY!
Wilson - From what I saw, NO!
Ed Brown - STILL UNDECIDED: I have shot and handled both a Classic Custom .45 and a bullseye match pistol 6" made by them a couple of years ago. I am still trying to figure out whether they're worth the asking price... but I think I would spend my money rather on a BAER...
 
i don't think any of them, especially the wilsons, are functionally worth the extra money.

but as an example of craftmanship and handwork, both the les baer and the ed brown are definately worth to cost. it depends on whether you can appriciate the difference. i consider the brown superior to the baer.

htere are folks who can't understand why a mercedes is worth more than a kia either.
 
At a certain point you reach the law of diminishing returns. Are they worth it? well that is something everyone has to answer for themselves. I am not a big fan of the 'semi-custom' shops, mainly because the ones I have felt tend to be too stiff (they say they break in after a few rounds, but quite frankly if I pay $3,000 bucks for a gun I don't want to break it in) And a lot of times for the same price you can afford a true custom piece.
 
For a bullseye gun or other very, very precision oriented shooting they may be worth the money...if you can shoot one that well. For me, the Kimber and SA do everything that I need them to, and are better guns than I usually am a shooter.

If you have the money, need that extra little bit of accuracy, want the bragging rights that go along with a W, B, LB then go for it. If money is kinda tight, you'll probably be better off putting it toward a Kimber or SA and ammo, ammo, ammo.
 
Faus, I think you summed it up with the phrase: "Law of diminishing returns". I think that nails the situation. The significant amount of extra money that someone spends on a Brown, Wilson, etc., gets you an almost immeasurable amount of real world accuracy/reliability. But I guess if you got the $........
 
I used to own a Les Baer, thing was a bear (no pun intended) to break down due to being so tight but it would clover leaf shots in the target. Due to the pain of breaking this gun down I got rid of it.

Recently I have been bitten by the 1911 bug again. I went to a local gun store and bought a used stainless Series 80, built in the 1980's. Price was about half of what I gave for the Les Baer. First time at the range this pistol is clover leafing shots.

With all that said for some reason I REALLY want a Ed Brown Bobtail.

In the final analysis whatever you want to do. As a note when I sold my Les Baer it was to a LEO in Texas that intended to use it as his duty gun so it was worth it to him.
 
Well, for me, the semi-customs end up costing the same as the economy models.

When I bought my bottom-of-the-line Kimber, I started tweaking it...new trigger, maybe bevel the mag well, do this, do that, maybe a hard chrome job. Lot's of little checks and twenties. When I bought a semi-custom Valtro, I wrote one check that totalled about the same amount.

Unfortunately, living in California, I don't get to sample many different semi-customs, but I hear each of those you mentioned are starting to make their way through our testing, so maybe I, too, can sample the pleasures of a Ed Brown Bobtail or a Les Baer.
 
A nice semi-custom Springfield runs $850.00. You're just paying for the name and nothing else.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:

There is no such thing as a semi-custom Springfield for $850.

Other than that, I think it's been summed up pretty well. What's worth something to one person may not be worth half as much to another. Every single semi-custom and custom 1911 I own is worth what I paid for it; otherwise, I wouldn't have.
 
Not only no, but Phuck no. A nice semi-custom Springfield runs $850.00. You're just paying for the name and nothing else.
Click to expand...

Never heard of a semi-custom SA for $850. If you're talking a Loaded, there's nothing custom about it, and $850 doesn't get much done even on a Mil-Spec if you paid close to retail.

Oh, and you might want to look up Art's Grandma rule before using the cute ways around language filters.
 
The basic problem is that today we have an endless list of manufacturers offering this or that kind of 1911 pattern pistols. It used to be there was one maker (Colt) and they made everything that went into the pistol in-house. The quality of the finished product was never questionable.

Today everyone, including Colt, assemble guns that with parts that are purchased from sub-contractors (in other words, outsourced). Depending on the particular company and the vendors that are providing the parts, they may be good, bad or indifferent. The materials that are used can be anything from quality steel to green cheese. The dimensions and tolerances may be correct or way off of the map.

Custom makers are not all equal, but you can specify what you want to a degree. Some folks want a lot of bling-bling, and are more impressed with the 30-line checkering than reliable functioning. Others aren't concerned with cosmetics but want the highest quality parts carefully and correctly assembled to insure long life and solid reliability. Last but not least, some want both bling and reliability.

Our own "1911Tuner" it should be noted, cares not one wit about bling-bling (and for that matter I don't either) but if you look you will find several threads where he took a regular mil-spec Springfield Armory .45 pistol, made a few changes with critical parts - and most importantly, made sure everything was fitted correctly - and then ran the pistol through 1000 rounds while subjecting the pistol to some ungodly environmental abuse. What Tuner did to that pistol to make it run should have happened at the company that made it. But in an age when gun companies are run by MBA number crunchers this simply doesn't happen. So that's one reason we have custom pistolsmiths.

So anyway, are the semi-custom guns worth the money? The answer is most cases are yes, but it depends on if the features being offered are what you want. To a degree a pistol made by a big-name ‘smith is a status symbol, and part of what you are buying is bragging rights. But behind the name there has to be something solid or they wouldn’t be able to remain in business.
 
The biggest gripe I have with the semi-custom/house pistols over a built pistol for an independent shingle hanger is that rarely do I want all the features or parts each of the house guys use. You won't get Wilson to put Kings, Ed Brown, or Les Baer parts on their gun and the opposite is also true.

However, if I contract with a independent gun smith, I can get all (or as little) as I want. I can mix and match to my hearts (and wallets) content.

For many, pistols are just tools. For some they are status symbols. For still others, they are tools, but the owner takes great pride in owning "the best tools available". Things are very subjective and thankfully, despite all the legal garbage we have to wade through, we have tremendous choices available to us through manufacturers, aftermarket parts, and gunsmiths.

The talent pool is certainly not shallow.
 
Lot's of good points.

In some cases, depending on the features you want, the semi customs can be a bargin, if you shoot a lot.

The Baer Premier II is @ $1500 with adjustable sights, checkering and all the "stuff" you read about. A similiar Kimber(s), I think, is @ $1200-$1600. They have so many models. The Baer is a bargin with better parts, accuracy and definately, a better finish.
 
I have a series I Kimber Royal Classic with the standard Kimber trigger, my wife has a 9mm Stainless Target with the match trigger. I used to think there was very little difference, and most of the talk about match parts from a production gun was hype. I now know it's not hype, that match trigger is great.

I've handled Springfield Pro's, Les Baer TRS, and a new Rock River. I can feel the difference in fit, trigger pull and overall finish. So I know that the money you spend for these pistols is going somewhere worthwhile.

I'm hooked, I will buy one. Which one, I don't yet know... Yost-Bonitz, Ed Brown are at the top of the list and now I'm hearing great things about Nighhawk so I'll have to check them out. The problem with these guns are that they're so expensive and specific to the end user that you won't tend to find them in shops, so you can't get a feel for them.
 
I found a similar message chain on the Pistolsmith website, a while back (before they changed things), where a lot of the guys who went for top-of-the-line custom guns were also into the top-of-the-line MECHANICAL (not quartz) wristwatches.

I understand both the aesthetics of a well-made gun, and am beginning to appreciate the same in a well-made watch. Unhappily, my budget doesn't really allow more than the middle of either gun/watch continuum.

That said, one or two of my sem-customized 9mms (and my SIG GSR) will shoot right with most of the top-end guns; a couple of them look ALMOST as good. And a couple of my quartz watches will keep better time than several of my collectible watches, that cost (used) 5-6 times as much as the quartz ones.

Its really a matter of taste, once you get beyond a certain level of basic tool competency (and user proficiency) -- and, as they say, there's no accounting for taste. <grin>
 
I've owned a lot of custom 1911 and P-35 pistols from some of the most revered 1911 pistolsmiths of yesterday and today. Still own a few. 1911s from all of the Big 3 semi-custom shops have come into my hands, only the Wilsons (4) have stayed.

Having been around the block, so to speak, I would recommend purchasing a basic, no frills 1911 and then shooting it. After deciding which 'smith you want to send it to for "improvements", get on the smith's waiting list while you save up money for the modifications and another 1911 to shoot while your gun is being worked on.

If time is short and an over-the-counter 1911 is your only option, then the Colt Gunsite Pistol, LB TRS, Wilson CQB, Springfield Professional, and Ed Brown Kobra are worthy considerations. All can be had steeply discounted if one shops carefully.
 
Whenever this topic comes up I just wish that everyone looking at these guns considers what it is they really want. To get a gun that fits your hand, you change the grips. That's all Baer or Wilson will do. If you want 30lpi checkering, you can get that from any maker. You want an accurate gun, I haven't seen a new 1911 that wasn't accurate enough to be indistinguishable from any other gun. You want a specific trigger, okay, you probably need a 'smith, but you can send your $700 Kimber off to anyone and have that done.

Gun: $700
Grips: $50
Trigger: $125
TOTAL: $875

What in the name of John Moses Browning you get for $2,500 is completely lost on me.

If you want something just because it's pretty... that's a different story entirely.
 
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