Are most hunters over gunned

[Atavar]

I asked a theoretical question to generate discussion. I'm brandy new to hunting and I'm trying to understand consepts...

Pretty much the down side for too much rifle is more meat damaged by the shot. You can mitigate this by studying the anatomy of your game to learn where there are kill zones with a minimum of edible meat. The best way to do this is to hunt and pay attention during field dressing.
If you are new pay special attention to where bowels and musk glands are and don’t shoot them. Don’t ask me how I learned this.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

When I was going through my gear for my moose hunt, I half considered bringing my 6.5 Creedmoor. Lots of people take moose with .308 round here and 6.5 swede works on the smaller moose in Scandinavia.

My uncle, who I was going with, said something like "when it comes to big animals, sometimes more dead is better". I think I have to agree with him now.

 

[Hugger-4641]

I have been accused of both over the years. I suspect I will be accused of both in the future. I like changing what gun I hunt with fairly frequently and that often finds me running around on the border of what many think is a good gun for the species I am after. I also like to varmint hunt with my choose deer rifle in the week running up to gun season and that often results in some spectacular overkill.

I relate to this sentiment.
I've hunted deer most of my life with a 30-30 or 30-06. I have also taken a few with 12ga slugs, 22lr, .223, 300wm and .308win, and .50 cal.
This year I hope to add my Henry .45colt and my 6.5cm to that list.
So I have and probably will again be found been on both sides of the accusations.
I was actually chastised a bit on another forum for using my Ar-15 and a "non hunting" bullet. The deer didn't know the difference and didn't taste any different.
The last 10yrs or so I've taken at least one deer each year with 300wm.
If you put the bullet in the right place, there is really not much difference in meat damage between a .223 and a 300wm. But I'd still rather sacrifice a few lbs of meat than lose the blood trail in a swamp.
Would I recommend .223 for deer ? Absolutely not. The margin for error is a lot smaller. But if that was all I had, I'm taking some deer with it.
Is the 300wm overkill for deer? For a few decades I thought so. I had some pride that I took as many or more deer with my 30-30 than my friends did with 300wm or 7mag.
But having used one for about 10yrs now, I see some benefits. Recoil has never been an issue for me. I used to have some hunting spots that offered 300yd+ opportunities, and for the last couple years I've hunted some spots where I have to drop them pretty fast so they dont run onto land where I can't retrieve them.
As they say, to each his own. These days I'm more critical of shot placement and shot choices than the calibre used. If you can consistently put the bullet where it needs to be with that 22-250 or that 300rum, I won't judge.

 

[AK Hunter]

From what I have observed the ones that are over gunned usually can't track a deer if they just wound one & don't drop it right away.
I had a buddy like that so he was using a .300 ultra mag, he shot a buck at about 40 yds through the shoulder & he destroyed the opposite shoulder I told him it was just too much gun. The buck dropped instantly but he messed up so much meat.

 

[courtgreene]

Some people (I am not one of them), see no value in the meat found on the shoulder. For them, a quick kill and retrieve breaking the shoulder and sacrificing the stuff they wouldn’t eat anyway is perfectly acceptable. I take shoulder shots but eat as much of it as I can, so using less traumatic loads helps me with that. Some don’t eat the shoulders even when it isn’t bloodshot. This is a non-issue to them.

 

[Atavar]

From what I have observed the ones that are over gunned usually can't track a deer if they just wound one & don't drop it right away.
I had a buddy like that so he was using a .300 ultra mag, he shot a buck at about 40 yds through the shoulder & he destroyed the opposite shoulder I told him it was just too much gun. The buck dropped instantly but he messed up so much meat.

It wasn’t the gun that ruined the meat, it was the poor shot placement.

 

[Atavar]

Some people (I am not one of them), see no value in the meat found on the shoulder. For them, a quick kill and retrieve breaking the shoulder and sacrificing the stuff they wouldn’t eat anyway is perfectly acceptable. I take shoulder shots but eat as much of it as I can, so using less traumatic loads helps me with that. Some don’t eat the shoulders even when it isn’t bloodshot. This is a non-issue to them.

Some people are just crazy. One guy I hunted with for a decade would let me go over his deer carcass when he was done. I got hundreds of back straps he didn’t want and so much chop meat for sausage it wasn’t funny.
He pretty much just took the hams and called it good.

 

[courtgreene]

Some people are just crazy. One guy I hunted with for a decade would let me go over his deer carcass when he was done. I got hundreds of back straps he didn’t want and so much chop meat for sausage it wasn’t funny.
He pretty much just took the hams and called it good.

I’ve seen that a time or two. I start to get judgmental until I realize how much I stand to gain then I just shut up, roll up my sleeves and grab a knife.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive absolutely been over gunned on 90% of what ive killed, and underguned on the other 10....

Heres some random rambly thoughts.....

Killed Axis, sheep, goats, cows, and pigs with a whole pile of cartridges. The .22lr being on the bottom end the .375 Ruger up at the top.
I killed a couple with sticks....not the kind with a knife at the end....a stick stick....

Hit something in the correct spot hard enough and youll kill it....hit something in the wrong spot hard enough and youll still kill it. The difference is where and how hard you gotta hit it.

Its not that difficult to make a larger round perform like a slightly (and sometimes significantly) smaller round, its more difficult to make a smaller round perform like a larger one. In the context of thin skinned game tho....It really dosent take much to dead one.
Like wise you can tailor your bullets to the performance range you want, and you can choose to shoot stuff where you want.
A 650gr 50bmg fmj at 2650-2700 will probably do less meat damage than a 300wm with a 200gr soft point a 3000+/- going thru a shoulder blade. Neither would be stupendously excessive if you don't shoot em in the eaty bits.....dont like blood shot meat? make cuts following the muscle direction and use the knife blade to squoosh out as much blood as you can....makes decent sausage.


Use what you want, and use it well is the only "advice" I really have.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, from what I have seen on YouTube and read here on the the forum, if it was legal, then you would not need more than .17 hmr or .22 subsonic to get solid DRT kills, or maybe .22 long for record sized grizzly bear. All you have to do is make perfect shots.

By human nature, we are not perfect and often do not make perfect shots. This may be due to our skills, environmentals, or animal behavior. This is where every bit of the extra velocity, bullet weight, bullet size, and bullet type really come into play. By doing more damage either by length and/or diameter of the wound track, there is a greater likelihood of dropping an animal sooner with a less than perfect shot.

As long as they make the requirements for bullets larger than .223 cal, it will keep Bubba from getting excited and using his clapped out AR the first year due to novelty.

Last I checked, it was only about 10 states that require caliber larger than .223 for deer. Some of those states will not allow it for larger game such as elk or moose, but fine for deer. These would be Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Washington, and West Virginia. Some laws may have changed since I last looked, FYI.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Well, from what I have seen on YouTube and read here on the the forum, if it was legal, then you would not need more than .17 hmr or .22 subsonic to get solid DRT kills, or maybe .22 long for record sized grizzly bear. All you have to do is make perfect shots.

By human nature, we are not perfect and often do not make perfect shots. This may be due to our skills, environmentals, or animal behavior. This is where every bit of the extra velocity, bullet weight, bullet size, and bullet type really come into play. By doing more damage either by length and/or diameter of the wound track, there is a greater likelihood of dropping an animal sooner with a less than perfect shot.



Last I checked, it was only about 10 states that require caliber larger than .223 for deer. Some of those states will not allow it for larger game such as elk or moose, but fine for deer. These would be Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Washington, and West Virginia. Some laws may have changed since I last looked, FYI.

In TN you can use ANY centerfire rifle or pistol, muzzle load must be at least .36 cal.
That doesn't mean it's a good idea to use a 17 hornet.

 

[Hugger-4641]

From what I have observed the ones that are over gunned usually can't track a deer if they just wound one & don't drop it right away.

I will agree for sure, I've helped many a friend find deer they lost. But to play devil's advocate: if you've ever had to track one thru a Tennessee swamp, you realize how easily they can be lost.

 

[Atavar]

When I was young (many decades ago) I could legally hunt deer with my .22wmr over 20ga. With one shot of each I had to be sneaky and take judicious shots but that gun never failed me.
20ga slug heart/lung or .22wmr in front of the ear were both effective stoppers.

I am actually upset they took .22wmr out of the weapons list for Turkey. It was a perfect Turkey caliber.

 

[Duster340]

Prefer to be "overgunned" than find myself wishing I had a bit more gun.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In TN you can use ANY centerfire rifle or pistol, muzzle load must be at least .36 cal.
That doesn't mean it's a good idea to use a 17 hornet.

The issue I was addressing here isn't necessarily if it is a good idea or not, but whether or not folks are overgunned. All I was doing was pointing out that "overgunned" really just matters as to where to put the goal posts. The same could be said for whether or not something is a good idea.

 

[crstrode]

The same Mossberg 151K used for dispatching 1000 pound steers did just fine on 200 pound bucks. However, taking deer in our own woods where I knew every tree, rock, bush, and pond, was much different than what the city slickers had to contend with.

 

[Hasaf]

When I first went boar hunting, with friends in California, I took a Sporterized Springfield '03 in 30-06. Why? Because that is what I had.

Several years later I had, and still have, a bolt action .44 mag, something that is much more appropriate for the situation.

 

[Hugger-4641]

The issue I was addressing here isn't necessarily if it is a good idea or not, but whether or not folks are overgunned. All I was doing was pointing out that "overgunned" really just matters as to where to put the goal posts. The same could be said for whether or not something is a good idea.

Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, just quoting you.
As for goal posts, they move depending on conditions. Around here, I have hunted bottom land fields where I could take 700yd + shots. Would I try that with a 30-30, not a chance. Last year most of the deer I took were less than 100yds. Just about anything in my stable would have worked, but why use a .223 when I have better options?

 

[hawg]

I started hunting with a 1903 Springfield when I was 12. The 30-06 is still my favorite cartridge 54 years later. I have used others but the 30-06 is my go to cartridge. I have killed a lot of deer with it and never lost one. I have killed deer anywhere from 40 yards to over 300 yards with it.

 

[brewer12345]

Personally, I am recoil sensitive. I don't generally feel recoil when shooting at game, but higher recoil guns are not something I am eager to practice with and it is easy to develop a flinch. So I like high bang for the buck medium cartridges: 35 Rem, 350 Legend, 6.5 Grendel, etc. I carry the 30-06 for elk, but otherwise don't generally find it necessary for deer or pronghorn.

Beaver we exclusively shoot in the head, generally at shortish distances. I ginned up a low noise cast load for 350 legend. Energy is about 357 full house levels, but a 200 grain lead bullet plows right through those heavy skullls.

 

[hawg]

Personally, I am recoil sensitive.

Not me. To me a 30-06 doesn't have enough recoil to say anything about. I can shoot a hot loaded 06 with a steel butt plate all day long. I don't like recoil pads and none of my guns have them. If you hold it loosely against your shoulder it's going to stomp a mudhole in your butt. Pull it in tight and it just pushes you back instead of slamming into your shoulder.

 

[LoonWulf]

I'm fairly recoil tolerant, and I'm fairly decent at shooting guns I know are going to hurt. Still prefer not to do it unless I have to.
I've got no issue wIth people downsizing to something they find more pleasant to shoot. Hunting and shooting are supposed to be fun, getting the crap kicked out of me isn't really my idea of fun lol.

 

[WisBorn]

Are most hunters over gunned?
I think that can be a loaded question. I would prefer Hunters bring enough gun. And not some minimum cartridge. There is no such thing as overdead. There is such a thing as underdead that's a wounded animal. Bring a cartridge that you can shoot well with enough energy and large enough diameter that will get the job done.

 

[Ru4real]

If it bleeds, a 223 can kill it. Is everything else “over gunned” ? No.

It’s another made up thing, sort of like “ethical hunting”. Hunting is killing game to eat and sustain life, same as its always been.

 

[hawg]

I don't believe in letting an animal suffer just to make a kill. I don't believe a .223 is enough to make a good clean reliable kill on a deer.