brewer12345
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I'm an experienced shooter and know how to avoid amplifying recoil when I do so. I still know where the line is with my recoil tolerance. Count yourself lucky.
Are most hunters over gunned
- Thread starter AJC1
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I'm an experienced shooter and know how to avoid amplifying recoil when I do so. I still know where the line is with my recoil tolerance. Count yourself lucky.
Random 8
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I think the relatively recent trend of "deer sniping" has contributed to a lot of the horsepower one sees at the "deer rifle sight in day" events lately. They read about these long range kills, or see some online videos of trick shooting, and decide they wish to be like these people. They can likely quote the drop and 10mph/90 degrees wind drift out to 1000 yards for their factory load as generated by said factories literature. They're probably also over-bulleted, shooting some sort of premium bullet that will hinder them at longer ranges on thin skinned game. A 300 WM or some of the newer PRC type rounds may well be over gunned out to 200-300 yards, then the numbers get a bit more sane. Whether the shooter is capable or even hunts an area where such shooting is possible is usually another matter. We get a lot of guys at our sight in day shooting 4-6" groups off a bench at 100 who wish to jump over to the 400 yard berm and see what she does, as if their big boomer will magically tighten up to some sort of nice group at longer ranges. NO!
There is also a big boy toy aspect. A few I know locally who hunt something with Magnum in the name also have the fastest boat, the biggest side by side, a commercial ZT mower for 1-2 acre lawns and an oversized pickup for hauling their boat and lawn mower around. They also have a tendency to make fun of my .300 Savage pump gun which really doesn't bother me, I know what it does. For some reason they have a mystical fascination with my .280 Rem though, even though it is a "lesser" caliber. They coined the name "N2Z1 Death Ray" in deference to the waffenampts still present on the receiver and it's performance. The thumbhole fancy walnut stock, oddball caliber, and it's ability to hit a beer can at 100 offhand and 200-300 with an improvised rest when we have some informal shootin' matches and Gentlemen's wagers at deer camps before season may have something to do with it. I've got the 760 .300 Sav dialed in a bit better this year. That might really turn some heads at those fun little shoots!
There is also a big boy toy aspect. A few I know locally who hunt something with Magnum in the name also have the fastest boat, the biggest side by side, a commercial ZT mower for 1-2 acre lawns and an oversized pickup for hauling their boat and lawn mower around. They also have a tendency to make fun of my .300 Savage pump gun which really doesn't bother me, I know what it does. For some reason they have a mystical fascination with my .280 Rem though, even though it is a "lesser" caliber. They coined the name "N2Z1 Death Ray" in deference to the waffenampts still present on the receiver and it's performance. The thumbhole fancy walnut stock, oddball caliber, and it's ability to hit a beer can at 100 offhand and 200-300 with an improvised rest when we have some informal shootin' matches and Gentlemen's wagers at deer camps before season may have something to do with it. I've got the 760 .300 Sav dialed in a bit better this year. That might really turn some heads at those fun little shoots!
WisBorn
Contributing Member
I think we all develop opinions based on experiences.
I have seen a couple of bad results from 22 caliber cartridges on deer. That said I will never be a fan of 223 for medium size game.
A THR friend and I have talked about the growth in popularity of 223 for hunting. We both believe the growth is more do to the AR15 craze than about the cartridge capabilities.
With so many better choices than 223 that will run on the AR platform with low recoil. I would pick one of them.
On the other end I have seen people that should not be shooting a magnum. With so many choices that are effective at modest ranges they should stay at that level.
I have seen a couple of bad results from 22 caliber cartridges on deer. That said I will never be a fan of 223 for medium size game.
A THR friend and I have talked about the growth in popularity of 223 for hunting. We both believe the growth is more do to the AR15 craze than about the cartridge capabilities.
With so many better choices than 223 that will run on the AR platform with low recoil. I would pick one of them.
On the other end I have seen people that should not be shooting a magnum. With so many choices that are effective at modest ranges they should stay at that level.
brewer12345
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I hadn't thought about the fad of half mile shots on deer, but that is probably a lot of it. That whole thing mystifies me, since most deer are taken within 100 yards and the average shooter would be hard pressed to make a kill much beyond 150 or 200.
wankerjake
Member
You guys don’t hunt out west much huh
entropy
Member
To you, perhaps. Were I hunting that way, I'd use a crossbow with a thermal sight on it.
Subsistence hunting is one thing, and it definitely is a thing, as Caribou often points out. But the vast majority of hunters (not so much on THR, but overall) haul Ol' Betsy out the week before opener, hit a public range day, put a couple in a pie plate at 100/50/25 yards and call it good, assuming they actually cleaned her last fall after the season. Otherwise, it's a 'click', a trip to the gunsmith, and using the backup gun.
.223 will certainly kill deer in the hands of a good shot who knows what to shoot at. I hunt with one. So does my older son. I have yet to get a shot with mine, but my son has killed many deer with an Axis and a DPMS Sportical.
Should every, or even most hunters, use .22 centerfires for deer? Definitely not. But for those who know they are up to the task, they are a valid choice. I will add I have passed up a lot of shots with a .223 that I might have taken with a .30-06.
See above.
One must be a decent shot, know the anatomy of the game, and be willing and able to pass up some shots they would take with a more substantial caliber.
It's kind of like fly fishing trout. I've caught more of them with small spinners or live bait and an ice fishing rod, but it sure gives me a sense of accomplishment to catch one with an old wooden fly rod and flies I've tied myself.
brewer12345
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Last deer was killed at 325 yards in sagebrush prairie. But east of the Mississippi where an awful lot of hunters are is very different.
WisBorn
Contributing Member
I agree that with open range comes long shots.
Many of you are old enough to remember the bean feild rifle craze that sparked more hunters wanting to be able to reach out. This also pushed the traditional woods hunters into high blinds and magnum rifles in eastern and southern states.
We have seen the changes in the Midwest also. As families get smaller and hunting decreases in popularity, more hunting is done from high stands. As a kid I would hunt with a group of guys driving large wood lots fast handling semiautomatic rifles like the Winchester 100 in 308 and Remington 742 in 30-06 were the primary rifles. A few guys carried Browning BAR in 7mm mag. That ended for me and the group about 30 years ago. Many of the wood lots are now agriculture and there blinds are sitting on the edges of those fields. Some of my favorite hunting areas was old paper mill land. It has been cleared and has become golf courses and subdivisions.
I guess we need to look a little harder at the whole and not just one area. The buck I shot last year was at 25 yards. I could have shot two hundred yards from my portable ground blind. The 7mn Rem Mag was for the longer range. I wish I would have brought my 44mag revolver for the shot I ended up taking.
Hugger-4641
Member
I have proven a couple times that it is, but it's like pulling in a 10lb bass with 6lb mono, you'd better do everything right. You won't get away with a bad angle or bad placement that you might with a more powerful cartridge.
hawg
Member
I live in MS. I grew up hunting across soybean fields. If you couldn't make at least a 300 yard shot you might as well stay at home.
crstrode
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This only applies to those that have difficulty hitting what they aim at. Any deer will drop in its tracks in response to a bullet behind the ear. My father was fond of saying that tracking a wounded deer is a lazy man's pastime.
hawg
Member
My last deer was a behind the ear head shot with a .54 caliber round ball out of a .54 Hawken with iron sights at 65 yards. I don't have a problem hitting what I aim at but there's more people that do have a problem than don't. I would never use something like a .223 on a deer.
That goes back to the point of Huggers 10lb bass, you do it right AND the fish cooperates, you have dinner and a good story.
....but you dont have alot of leeway for either so stacking the deck as well as one can is usually a good idea.
That brings up a good point too, personal experience and lack of confidence can cause as many problems as bad equipment.
You hand me any gun loaded with light or medium for caliber speer boattail soft points, and I'll be a little light on confidence.... Probably only shoot if I know I can hit them at least two or three times. Same goes for the 30-30.
I've had less than stellar experiences with both, at least partially due to user error, but they still color my judgment.
That doesn't make either bad choices in many if not most circumstances, but I can't pick up either without kind of wondering.....
crstrode
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Yup.
A man's got to know his limitations.
brewer12345
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Yeah. That is a horses for courses thing. Like you, I hunt at bad breath distance with a traditional muzzleloader and at extended distance with modern stuff. I don't like shots over 350 yards, so I try hard to pick situations where I won't have them. Sometimes you only get the long ones.
Varminterror
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I suppose "relatively recent" is non-descript, so this might be referring to "relatively recent compared to the age of the world," but watching the history of magnum cartridge and US hunters, it's not really recent, and the recent trend is towards smaller and smaller cartridges, not larger and larger.
Consider when most magnum cartridges were designed - we're talking 50-70yrs ago. The 300 Wby magnum existed pre- WWII, with the 30-378 coming out in the late 50's, and the 300 wm and 7 RM on its heels, originating in the 1960's out of the post-war American principle of "bigger is better". There was a relative stagnation where the interest here hit a carrying capacity of "special interest" folks for a couple of decades, but when the Remington Ultra Magnums dropped in 1999, almost 25yrs ago, surrounded by fanfare of "shooting across canyons" there was a huge boom in magnumitis.
BUT... Almost immediately thereafter, we saw the introduction of the WSM's and RSAUM's, and the "down trend" of case sizes began. The WSM's hit the market in 2001, with the WSSM's in 2003 behind them, and the Ruger Safari Magnums came out in 2007, smaller than the cases of their much older counterparts. It really wasn't until the 300 PRC hit the market that we had a truly larger capacity magnum come to market as a factory offering, larger than its long-standing counterpart, but still not larger than many of its competition in the large 30 cal magnum class.
But comparatively, we're seeing much more being done with relatively SMALLER cases, even within the magnum cartridge category - the 6.5 PRC is smaller than either the 6.5 Rem Mag or 264 Win Mag; the 7 PRC isn't bigger than 7RM or 7RUM, 300 PRC is slightly bigger than 300WM, but smaller than RUM, Norma, or either 30 cal Weatherby. 6.5 and 6 Creed smaller than the 260 rem and 243win, 6.5 Grendel smaller than 260rem, and 6 ARC even smaller still than the Grendel. I suppose 224 Valkyrie and 22 Nosler were larger cases than 223/5.56, but remaining smaller than 22-250 or 220 Swift, and smaller cases than their 6.8 SPC parent... We're seeing more and more SMALLER cases being developed and released - which is largely being attributed to 1) the death of hunting in the US, 2) more efficient case designs getting more performance out of less powder, and 3) improved bullet technology.
More often, at the ranges I frequent, I'm seeing more and more SMALLER cases in the last 10yrs old than I did in the 20yrs before, and when someone brings a magnum cartridge to the line, it's typically someone heading out of state after larger game, or an older hunter with a rifle bought a generation ago, or two...
marksman13
Member
Why would you be concerned about semi-auto? I’ve hunted with a semi-auto my entire life. Majority of my deer hunts end with one round fired. Pig hunts are a different story, but I don’t see where semi-auto is a big deal and I think limiting mag capacity is sheer stupidity.
CoalCrackerAl
Member
Because of folks who would shoot at a running deer. And not notice another hunter in the path of fire.
For sure! Some people see a deer and just start unloading on them!
marksman13
Member
Might as well just ban all mags over 3 rounds and semi autos with that logic. Nobody needs a semi auto or more than 3 rounds for any reason.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Those same folks will shoot at a stationary deer and not notice another hunter in the path of fire.
Geez, even in the gun community, we have to tell people that it isn't the gun that is the problem, but the people pulling the trigger.
A 30-30 will do well enough in this sort of eastern forest.
This was taken in the woods at a gun club in Louisville KY.
A musket with buck and ball was just fine in these Georgia woods. These are pictures from the Chickamauga Battlefield.
this is where the 1st Michigan Artillery position is located today. In the woods
Well walked today, but still dense
During the battle, the woods were so dense, a Confederate unit was able to walk up on the 1st Michigan and over run the battery before the Union gunners could turn the cannon. Notice all the trees in the plague, put up by the Civil War veterans who put up the Monument.
Newspaper copper engravings took out the trees, and made it all much more heroic
this is not far from the Winfield field, real dense woods now.
notice all the trees on the plague? And the Confederate General getting ganked at upper right?
The Pennsylvania Infantry was real proud they got a General. The General got lost in the woods, and it was dark at the time.
I have hunted similar woods with a slug gun and got my deer when it walked up on me. Eastern woods are real dense, unless they have been logged, or cleared out for fields. Let me tell you, the deer are in the woods during daylight. First thing in the morning, I have seen lots of fresh deer tracks going across fields. Prints, but no deer. Deer have good enough night vision that a herd of them walked by me just before dawn. I could not see my hand in front of my face, but they saw me, and went quite and the walking noises disappeared.
Don't need a cannon for 30 yard shots. Probably do for 500 yard shots.
CoalCrackerAl
Member
In Pa were allowed 3 round for small game and turkeys. Disabled folks are allowed semi-auto rifles for big game. With a 4 round limit. Im not for mag restrictions. For other uses. I had 2 bullets whiz by me hunting for squirrels. When i was 16. For deer i do not go out the 1st day. Just a fear i have. I didn't mean to tick off anyone.
