Are most hunters over gunned

[Gerd33]

But east of the Mississippi where an awful lot of hunters are is very different.

I'm just west of the Mississippi but and we do have two small fields and a couple of other areas with short cleared shooting lanes. Away from those most of my hunting area looks like this:

The squirrel on the log in the middle of the photo is about 15yrds away, and I wouldn't have had a clear shot had I been hunting him.


Of the 4 deer I took this year 3 (2 with crossbow, 1 with 444 Marlin) were under 35 yards.

The long shot was 60yrds with the inline muzzleloader. A buck and doe came down the path the right center of the picture picture into this small cleared area and stood just on the other side of the ditch which is right at about 50 paces from where I was sitting. One of the crossbow deer and the one with the Marlin were taken at this same spot. came from the left and so were under 35 yards before they were clear.



I could hunt on the small fields and have somewhat longer shots, but I like to sit on the more heavily used deer trails which skirt the field edges.

 

[N555]

Who wants to hunt large bears with 44-40?
Not me.

 

[red rick]

In my state I think the magazine restrictions are more to stop crippling the animals than preventing people from being shot . I am ok with magazine restrictions for hunting , it probably saves me money dove hunting and rabbit hunting .

 

[JFrank]

Too big ?

 

[wankerjake]

I think magazine restrictions are more to address non-existent problems myself. But I have wacky views

@Slamfire yes I’ve seen the eastern woods. Thick stuff. The buck I killed in NY was with a 30-30, there’s nothing more satisfying to handle and carry than a good old lever gun. My comment about the west was to the responses that magnums were for overcompensation and were a silly fad for sniping and that most deer are killed within 100 yards because of eastern woods

As we know, the west is different. Here’s the terrain we were finding animals in two years ago in Montana:


Had to make a long shot on this last morning buck, couldn’t get closer and we were busted besides. The 300wsm wasn’t for compensation of anything lacking except cover to get closer. 535 was a poke but the rifle was more than capable:

 

[wankerjake]

I hadn't thought about the fad of half mile shots on deer, but that is probably a lot of it. That whole thing mystifies me, since most deer are taken within 100 yards and the average shooter would be hard pressed to make a kill much beyond 150 or 200.

As you stated in response to my earlier post, being more capable than the average shooter is just practical in some terrain. Your last deer was over 300 yards after all. So I’m not sure why it’s practical for you to be able to shoot further but a fad for others

My friends in NY practice long distance a lot and would shoot circles around most guys on this forum including me. If you see them at the range it’s not for hunting their backyards

Here’s one of them with a 500 yard Montana bull, I’m sure people were snickering at him and his 300 Win Mag at the range in upstate NY:

 

[wankerjake]

I have one more wacky thing to say. With a small selection of current bullets, the 223 has come a long way as a deer cartridge. I don’t consider it to be optimal for deer but the results don’t lie, bonded and monolithic bullets have turned a subpar deer cartridge into a capable one, in scenarios suited to the cartridge and the game

 

[brewer12345]

As you stated in response to my earlier post, being more capable than the average shooter is just practical in some terrain. Your last deer was over 300 yards after all. So I’m not sure why it’s practical for you to be able to shoot further but a fad for others

My friends in NY practice long distance a lot and would shoot circles around most guys on this forum including me. If you see them at the range it’s not for hunting their backyards

Here’s one of them with a 500 yard Montana bull, I’m sure people were snickering at him and his 300 Win Mag at the range in upstate NY:
View attachment 1147581

Jake, I think you are seeing implied criticism where there was none intended. Clearly there are plenty of hunters doing their thing in wide open spaces where you are only offered long shots (as on that really nice bull and buck). As you say, it is really easy to get busted in wide open terrain so a long shot is it. I got a lesson in just how good pronghorn vision is a couple of years ago getting busted at 600+ yards while I was on my belly in the cacti while "hidden" behind a clump of yucca. Especially if you put the time in to be able to take long shots ethically, more power to you.

That said, I've also spent plenty of time in the eastern forests. Its pretty easy in a lot of areas to just about end up nose to nose with deer compared to the wide open spaces in the west. I've also seen a lot of evidence that many hunters don't spend that much time shooting, and I've seen plenty of evidence that if it involves getting more than 100 yards off the trail or climbing significant elevation/rough terrain, a lot of guys simply won't do it. It isn't how I hunt and it obviously isn't how you hunt, but it is pretty common. I personally think that taking longer shots ethically means you need to put the time and effort into developing and maintaining shooting skills. I also think it means that you had better be willing and able to track an animal an extended distance as there are simply more opportunities for things to go wrong as your shots extend in distance. That isn't everyone, which is fine. Where I think issues arise is the hunting mags talking about very long range shots being no big deal, etc. Doesn't mix well with the guys that don't spend a lot of time shooting and rarely step off the trail much.

I am lucky in that I have a lot of hunting opportunities and some are damn near point blank (if I am real quiet I get shots in beaver inside 25 yards) while others are longer shots. My favorite hunts are the ones where I am using my wits and sneaky bastard-ness to get really close. We both know that sometimes this isn't possible.

 

[DeepSouth]

I’ve known a good many people that had a flench in anticipation of recoil, or noise. I suppose that’d be over gunned.

 

[Weflyfast]

It's all about shot placement and bullet design-

....just because I carry a rifle that will shoot from one end of a deer to the other crosswise doesn't mean I do it!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I’ve known a good many people that had a flench in anticipation of recoil, or noise. I suppose that’d be over gunned.

Well then a lot will be overgunned from .22 on up.

 

[jmorris]

That’s the thing, I have killed hundreds of pigs with the .22lr but I don’t feel over gunned shooting them with say a 45-70. I gain some margin for error and the places I can hit and still wind up with a dead animal grow in size.

Kind of like a glancing blow with my pickup truck can be as effective as a direct hit to CNS from a .22, result wise.

 

[Trampstamp]

Just my thoughts on whitetails. A lung shot with a caliber starting in .2 is going to allow that deer to run a pretty good distance. I prefer a high powered cartridge pushing a lot of weight. The term "brush gun" comes to mind and lots of folks say it's for shooting through brush, that's horsefeathers. I use the term to describe a relatively short gun in a big caliber with a big charge and a big load. Shots are often rushed and you don't have that luxury of perfect shot placement. When it finds the target it may need energy to break a fair bit of bone before hitting vitals. And, deer with bigger holes tend to run less. I hate tracking and hauling deer miles, and in the dark. So, overkill? Probably. Ever lost one ? Not yet. Ever missed one? Not yet. I theorize that about 40% of "I missed" stories are actually lazy or incompetent hunters that fatally wounded a deer and don't want to or can't find a track.

 

[Kevinq6]

I see more undergunning in the online community (Facebook). .300 BO or .223 are not ideal for hunting large hogs and not everyone who uses one is that old timer shooting a 1in group at 100yds. I specifically remember some posting a video where they shot an 80lb pig with a .300 BO six times saying "and they say it is too small".

Most hunters I know seem to use moderate calibers for whitetail and hogs (.308, 6.5 Creedmoore, 30-06).

 

[LimaCharlie]

Is a Weatherby 460 Magnum over gunned for squirrel hunting?

 

[Hugger-4641]

I theorize that about 40% of "I missed" stories are actually lazy or incompetent hunters that fatally wounded a deer and don't want to or can't find a track

It's a lot easier to lose one than some would have you believe. I'm sure there are expert trackers here that have never lost a wounded animal, but I have. It has been about two decades since I lost the last one. But I haven't forgot, still mad about it.
I tracked it in and out of a briar filled ravine that fed into a creek and a swamp.
The blood trail got weaker and I lost it at the edges of the creek where the swamp started. Two days later I followed the buzzards and found it under the edge of a deadfall on the bank 50yds back up the ravine. It must have doubled back and my tracking skills didn’t recognize it.
I had probably walked within 50ft of it and didn't know it. The shot was good, biggest mistake I probably made was not waiting long enough before I started tracking it.
It happens, you just need to learn from it.

 

[Slamfire]

It's a lot easier to lose one than some would have you believe. I'm sure there are expert trackers here that have never lost a wounded animal, but I have. It has been about two decades since I lost the last one. But I haven't forgot, still mad about it.
I tracked it in and out of a briar filled ravine that fed into a creek and a swamp.
The blood trail got weaker and I lost it at the edges of the creek where the swamp started. Two days later I followed the buzzards and found it under the edge of a deadfall on the bank 50yds back up the ravine. It must have doubled back and my tracking skills didn’t recognize it.
I had probably walked within 50ft of it and didn't know it. The shot was good, biggest mistake I probably made was not waiting long enough before I started tracking it.
It happens, you just need to learn from it.

Bud of mine was losing deer just as the darkness came in. He would find them next morning, within a couple of hundred yards, eaten by coyotes. He was using 168 SST in a 308 Win, and these shots were under 50 yards. The problem was, the Hornady bullets were not expanding when placed behind the shoulder in the rib/lung area. Sure the animal died, but it ran first.

His solution, place the bullet between tip of shoulder and neck. Lots of bone and muscle there. He claims, knocks the deer down, and they die quickly.

 

[Trampstamp]

It's a lot easier to lose one than some would have you believe. I'm sure there are expert trackers here that have never lost a wounded animal, but I have. It has been about two decades since I lost the last one. But I haven't forgot, still mad about it.
I tracked it in and out of a briar filled ravine that fed into a creek and a swamp.
The blood trail got weaker and I lost it at the edges of the creek where the swamp started. Two days later I followed the buzzards and found it under the edge of a deadfall on the bank 50yds back up the ravine. It must have doubled back and my tracking skills didn’t recognize it.
I had probably walked within 50ft of it and didn't know it. The shot was good, biggest mistake I probably made was not waiting long enough before I started tracking it.
It happens, you just need to learn from it.

No, I know hoe easy it is to lose them. I have plenty of friends that lose them and honestly I've been called to help track and drag som nasty ones and sometimes you lose the track. It's tough. I'm not trying to say I never could lose one, I'm just saying a bigger hole helps allot.

 

[Hugger-4641]

Some people (I am not one of them), see no value in the meat found on the shoulder.

I won't intentionally ruin this meat or throw it away, but if I have to make a shot here I will. It is the least desirable of all the meat and usually less than 10lb of meat lost. However, this is another plus for the 300wm. I've seen .270 and 30-06 fragment after passing through the shoulder bone and end up in the loin. Haven't seen a 300wm do this.

 

[crstrode]

Those same folks will shoot at a stationary deer and not notice another hunter in the path of fire.

Geez, even in the gun community, we have to tell people that it isn't the gun that is the problem, but the people pulling the trigger.

After a Holstein steer was shot on our place, Dad had me tack-up "No Trespassing or Hunting" signs all over everywhere!

You can't fix stupid.

 

[.308 Norma]

Personally, I am recoil sensitive. I don't generally feel recoil when shooting at game, but higher recoil guns are not something I am eager to practice with and it is easy to develop a flinch.

I've never thought I was all that recoil sensitive. However, that might be because my dad was probably the most recoil sensitive person I've ever known. Dad carried a semi-auto .308 Winchester (and used it very effectively) for big game hunting for most of his life because he believed 30-06s and larger cartridges "kicked too ______ hard!"
Dad also selected a semi-auto .308 Winchester (just like his) for me for my first big game rifle (when I was about 14) because he knew a .308 Winchester was plenty of gun for big game anywhere in the lower 48, and he didn't want me to develop a flinch. I'm sure it was a disappointment to Dad when later on (back in the early '80s) I "stepped up" to a 30-06. And Dad would absolutely be shaking his head now that I've become so fond of my 30-caliber magnum (my beloved .308 Norma) if he was still around.
On the other hand, my 5'2",120 lb. wife uses (also very effectively) a custom 7mm Rem Mag for big game hunting. However, as I've said before, we load it way down for my wife to practice and occationally shoot rockchucks with in the summer. Then when fall and deer season comes around, my wife uses a recoil shield to fire a couple of full-house rounds just to make sure her rifle is "on." And then like you said, she never "feels the recoil" anyway when she's shooting at big game.
Besides that, even the "full-house" 7mm Rem Mag loads my wife uses are more like .280 Remington, or 7mm-08 "+P" loads than 7mm Rem Mag loads. The fact is, the only reason my wife uses a 7mm Rem Mag for big game is because she wanted a custom big game rifle built around a Model 70, pre-64 type action, and the only used rifle like that we could find happened to be a 7mm Rem Mag. We knew we could "load down" a 7mm Rem Mag to 7mm-08 (like she had been using for big game since the 7mm-08 was first commercialized) levels anyway, so that used 7mm Rem Mag is what we bought.
If my wife goes before I do, I'm going to have one heck of a time selling that rifle. Sentimental reasons for one thing, but also because it's one weird looking rifle IMO. It has a long, 25" barrel, and an almost unbelievably short stock - to fit my 5'2" (with short arms to match) wife.

 

[hawg]

I started using a 30-06 in 1969. The cartridge has served me well. The rifle I've used since the mid 90's shoots sub MOA. I almost always go for heart/lung shots. Anything can happen just as you pull the trigger(ie the deer can move). Shot placement with a heart/lung shot isn't as critical as a head shot or spine shot especially at longer distances. I have killed a lot of deer with an 06 and they are almost always DRT. They may try to get up but they can't do it. I've used other calibers. A 30-30 with iron sights is my go to woods gun but I've used others, even a 44-40. I have an AR in .223/5.56 but it's the last gun I'd take deer hunting. I did have a Weatherby Mark V in .257 WM I used for awhile for long shots across bean fields that I wasn't comfortable making with an 06 but I haven't hunted a bean field since the late 90's.

 

[LoonWulf]

The last animal i lost was about 4 years ago (i think). Standing broadside, I shot it dead center the middle with my .375.....didnt miss, just pointed at the middle for some reason.
Recoil energy on that gun was probably equal to the weight of the animal, and after following the herd for over a quarter mile of lava rocks i lost them into the ravines and bushes. That sheep never so much as slowed down after the initial stumble.

Time before that was a large buck I hit 3 times with my .243, dove over the edge of a valley i couldnt follow him into. That time im all but positive a larger round would have made the difference.

Last one incan remember was a 30-40lb goat I shot with my 300wm and 125 balistics at 3200ish. 100ish yds flipped him into a hole and I assumed he was dead, dead. Cleared the gun and slung it. When i got upto him he flipped over and took off, i couldn't get another round into the gun fast enough and never found him in the lava even tho most of his insides were outside.

Size helps, but it isnt a cure-all...... especially for stupid.

 

[DM~]

Because of folks who would shoot at a running deer. And not notice another hunter in the path of fire.

It's a sad day when, even in the shooting community, someone wants to "ban something" others enjoy, because of what a person "might" do!!

DM

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Is a Weatherby 460 Magnum over gunned for squirrel hunting?
View attachment 1147676

Not if you are hunting a Kopidodon from the Eocene or dealing with a squirrel that happens to be in the next county. Or, maybe your goal is to not be able to find anything larger than an leg or tuft of fur after shooting, then W 460M is a find idea.

I know a lot of people who prairie dog hunt and get a lot of enjoyment me out of having prairie dogs largely vaporized from the impact of a bullet. That is the goal. That won't happen with a pellet gun which is all you need for such a little creature, right?