Are the Effects of Recoil Cumulative?

Speedo66

Speedo66

Member
Joined
May 31, 2008
Messages
11,079
Location
Flatlandistan
We’ve all read about the long term effects of getting hit in professional football on the players, they suffer every time they get a concussion, long term brain injury, etc.

I was pondering if there might be a similar long term cumulative effect from having our head shook every time we fire a powerful rifle or shotgun. I know I’ve been rocked a few times, maybe I wasn’t holding the gun tight enough and the gap between my face and the stock slapped me a bit.

Some heavy caliber, light rifle combinations can give you more recoil than expected, same for shooting powerful slugs from a light single shot shotgun. Sometime you get shook.

So what are your thoughts about possible long term brain damage effects from recoil? Anyone know of any studies that have been conducted on this? (I know there are some who think just because we own guns and shoot we must be brain damaged, but we’ll discount those thoughts.)
 
Yes, the effects are cumulative both good and bad. In modest amounts the body learns to absorb and becomes more tolerant to recoil. But if you consistently over do it you will do damage to the body. Where that cut off is is harder to know and varies allot from person to person.

The military had well defined if conservative limits to how much a solder can shoot in a day of training. It's based on free recoil energy since this takes into account both the recoil/momentum-change of the ammo being fired and the weight of the weapon firing it. It's not perfect but a pretty good guide.

ETA: Military recoil limits for testing and training.

CALCULATED RECOIL ENERGY | LIMITATION ON ROUNDS
Less than 15 ft-lb (20.3 J) | Unlimited firing
15 to 30 ft-lb (20.3 to 40.7 J) | 200 rounds per day per individual
30 to 45 ft-lb (40.7 to 61.0 J) | 100 rounds per day per individual
45 to 60 ft-lb (61.0 t0 81.4 J) | 25 rounds per day per individual
Greater than 60 ft-lb (81.4 J) | No shoulder firing

Source: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA587409.pdf
 
Last edited:
My life long observations have shown me that to throw off the alignment of the Atlas and Axis bones, it takes a shot to the head more than a shot to the body.
All kinds of strange things can happen to a person when the bones just under the skull are out of alignment. Most seem to be emotional and cognitive (some balance and coordination)
The body tends to absorb more than you would expect and the skull tends to absorb less than you would expect.

So as compared to a football player with repeated head injuries, I believe shooting hard recoiling rifles is not similar at all. A medium hard car wreck where the head smacks the headrest solidly, is worse than thousands of heavy 45-70 rounds fired.

All just my observations and opinions. I'm not a doctor but I have been through ten years of strange hell to finally understand how sensitive the skull and top two vertebrae are.
 
I've never seen anything yet that would lead me to believe that long term effects of recoil can cause brain damage like is seen with football players. But I suppose it could happen. This is a relatively new discovery and hasn't been fully researched even with football players. It has been discovered in many other athletes including wrestlers and soccer players too.

I coached HS football and soccer for 30 years so this is something I've paid attention to.

I have seen research showing that large numbers of much smaller impacts that do not lead to a concussion are more likely to cause brain damage than the less frequent big hits that do lead to a concussion. Running backs and receivers don't get hit in the head often but are more likely to get the big hits that lead to concussions. Linemen are exposed to much smaller impacts several times on every play. They rarely are concussed but are the ones most likely to develop brain damage. Some of those with the worst CTE cases had very few or no diagnosed concussions.

I suppose a heavy recoiling gun could do the same thing. Our brains are floating inside the skull. Any time the head is moved rapidly the brain slams into the skull. Heavy recoil does that. But I'd think it would have to do it a lot more times than most of us would be willing to tolerate. But it would be good to see some research on it.

I've often stated in posts that the effects of recoil are cumulative, but in a much different context. I can shoot a heavy recoiling rifle such as a 300 WM for a few shots and hardly notice it. But there comes a point where the recoil bothers me and it is no longer fun. I can shoot a 308 far more times before this becomes an issue. But it does eventually become an issue. And while some guys like to brag that they can handle the recoil, subconsciously it starts to be an issue for them as well. They may not realize it, but after a certain point their brain and body start to revolt and accuracy goes down.
 
Hartkopf said:
All kinds of strange things can happen to a person when the bones just under the skull are out of alignment. Most seem to be emotional and cognitive (some balance and coordination)..... I'm not a doctor but I have been through ten years of strange hell to finally understand how sensitive the skull and top two vertebrae are.
Click to expand...
Hartkopf, this is very interesting. I have a close acquaintance who has had years of neck alignment issues, is now seeing some rather serious emotional and cognitive symptoms at only about 50 years old, and doctors can't explain why. Do you have any more detail or advice you can share that might help someone benefit from what you've discovered so far, any books or other writings they might check out? Thanks.
 
I6turbo said:
Hartkopf, this is very interesting. I have a close acquaintance who has had years of neck alignment issues, is now seeing some emotional and cognitive symptoms at only about 50 years old, and doctors can't explain why. Do you have any more detail or advice you can share that might help someone benefit from what you've discovered so far, any books or other writings they might check out? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Upper cervical chiropractors. Or possibly NUCCA but not as precise IMO. As with any doctor/chiropractor, you have to find a good one.
Sorry this is getting out of THR territory but another huge overlooked problem (IMO) is b12 absorption. A person having cognitive issues has almost zero to lose by trying 2500mcg of Methylcobalamin b12. (sometimes 2 or 3 times a day)
 
Having shot Trap competitively, where 600 rounds a day for 2-3 days in a row is the norm, I have seen that it can affect some more than others.
Release triggers are not uncommon in Trap, particularly with older shooters. Recoil devices have been popular with Trapshooters since someone long ago filled the stock bolt hole on their shotgun with lead shot.
I minimize the effects or cumulative recoil with such devices so I can shoot a long weekend shoot or an even longer shoot like a State shoot or the Grand. (For the record I do not have a release trigger.....yet.)
 
Disclaimer: This is my opinion. I am neither a doctor, nor a physicist. I am a martial artist, for what that's worth.

I think that there are essentially 3 levels of head contact as it relates to brain health:
  • Those that are too low to register.
  • Those that are too low for concussion, but enough to accumulate damage over time.
  • Those that cause immediate concussion and damage.
If something hits you in the face, but it doesn't have an appreciable effect, I don't necessarily think it's going to cause cumulative damage. Think of how often people touch each other's heads, such as a parent tousling their child's hair. It might seem a silly example, but that is the extreme low-end of head contact. In martial arts, I've had plenty of times where my head is getting pushed around or I take a tap to the face, none of which I believe has any short-term or long-term effects.

I think it's those hits that rock you, but don't knock you out, that are going to have a cumulative effect. My sparring partner taps me on the face? Probably not a worry. My sparring partner lands a hard hit, but my chin is tucked and my body helps frame against the blow? Probably not a worry. I'm throwing an overhand and lean into an uppercut? Probably a worry.
 
I can imagine it happening to retinas in the eyes, those can be pretty sensitive and can detach without warning. Especially if one is shooting lots of big bore rifles/ magnum shotguns as one ages and most of our body parts become less flexible. :(

Stay safe.
 
Night Rider said:
The is a list of articles covering this, here is one.

https://experiment.com/projects/examining-firearm-recoil-on-neurometabolic-changes-associated-with-traumatic-brain-injury#:~:text=Repetitive gunshot recoil can impose,sports, law enforcement and military.

Artillery does it too.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1552526014001319?via=ihub
Click to expand...

It is the concussion that causes damage when around artillery or any tank main gun. The shockwaves are pretty strong when a 90mm or bigger round is fired. And being around explosives will definitely cause damage, again due to the concussive shockwaves.

While I have not been officially diagnosed with TBI, being a combat engineer, airborne, and then assigned to armored units. sure didn't help me any. My VA dentist has stated that being exposed to the concussions of explosives going off, being around tank main guns while firing and jumping out of perfectly good airplanes has causes me a lot of dental issues
 
I think it's a topic that bears serious thought. If we're talking an AR and the recoil of 5.56 then it probably won't have any effect although even with earpro it will probably affect hearing. A concussion is caused by the brain essentially sloshing around the head, being accelerated and decelerated rapidly. With recoil much of it goes into the shoulder which is only loosely coupled to the head. But as has been suggested, impacts below the level of a concussion likely do create cumulative damage. I'd be careful about shooting a lot of rounds through heavy recoiling guns but realistically I mostly shoot 9mm, 5.56, .300 BO & 7.62 x 39 with limited rounds of 12ga.
 
Sports science has has a mountain of evidence that stronger neck and back muscles mitigate the acute and chronic effects of whiplash type events.

Of course, boxing and football are sports in which even elite levels of strength and conditioning can prolong these effects but cannot stop them for everyone over an entire career.

Since most of us are not in those careers and are just recreational shooters, we will probably be fine.

Or just go work out a bit.
 
I had a friend who hunted groundhogs with a .300 WM. He came to regret it years later. Sore shoulder and enhanced flinch response. I spend years afield with either a .243 or a 6,5x55. In North America there is simply no reason to bash yourself. My brother, an Army veteran of 26 years, cites hearing loss as the #1 problem for previously active shooters. Not much talk about shoulder pain or loss of brain function. As to the latter, many of us suffer cognitive decline these days for reasons unknown to us. Certainly football players and boxers are an obvious example of what repeated blows to the head can do. I really like what the first responder to the OP put up. I didn't know about that at all.
 
Waveski said:
I would think that the affects of any repeated impact to the body is cumulative. Cartilage wear , nerve impact , every component has a finite service life.
Click to expand...

This is always a true statement on anything that punishes the body. It could be good (building muscle) or bad (causes ear damage). But cumulative anything is a real physiological condition.


mcb said:
Yes, the effects are cumulative both good and bad. In modest amounts the body learns to absorb and becomes more tolerant to recoil. But if you consistently over do it you will do damage to the body. Where that cut off is is harder to know and varies allot from person to person.

The military had well defined if conservative limits to how much a solder can shoot in a day of training. It's based on free recoil energy since this takes into account both the recoil/momentum-change of the ammo being fired and the weight of the weapon firing it. It's not perfect but a pretty good guide.

ETA: Military recoil limits for testing and training.

CALCULATED RECOIL ENERGY | LIMITATION ON ROUNDS
Less than 15 ft-lb (20.3 J) | Unlimited firing
15 to 30 ft-lb (20.3 to 40.7 J) | 200 rounds per day per individual
30 to 45 ft-lb (40.7 to 61.0 J) | 100 rounds per day per individual
45 to 60 ft-lb (61.0 t0 81.4 J) | 25 rounds per day per individual
Greater than 60 ft-lb (81.4 J) | No shoulder firing

Source: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA587409.pdf
Click to expand...

This is a fantastic reply. Honestly if true, should be a sticky. I'll take it to heart anytime I shoot .308/30-06 related calibers in a practice session. Although that said, I've never gone above 200 rounds.
 
When I was 20 years old I had an accident that jammed my neck and knocked me on my butt. The blow was straight down on my hard hat. I had a head ache but shook it off and went back to work and had a whopper of a head ache when i got home but took some Bufferin about the best OTC pain killer in those days and went women chasing that night. 6 years alter I'm married (I finally caught one) and my right leg stared hurting something fierce so I was referred to the supposedly best orthopedic guy in the area. The first visit an x-ray showed a canted vertabrae in my neck. After 3 months of exercise, etc. I went back for a checkup and was told to find a desk job as I was going to become a cripple. My wife talked me into going to a chiropractor after a few more months of getting worse. After a few adjustment over a few days I was feeling much better, the Bufferin was staying the bottle, and I could sleep at night. That has been 65 years ago and with regular chiropractic care I am still not a cripple. Oh, I have some aches and pains but that is arthritis which you get from wear and tear on you body such as shooting guns with a lot of recoil.
 
Sounds like you guys are all ready for the OR. You better turn your guns over to me right away before it gets any worse. lol I've been shooting for 58 years and the worse thing I can say is I get tired shooting more than 20 full boat rounds of 30.06 seated under 200 grain projectiles in a bolt gun. But the very next day I'm back at it again. I do limit conventional shooting more for concentration fatigue than anything else. I found 50 handgun loads/day, 4 rounds of trap/day, or sighting a rifle at 30 rounds/day my max. As other have said, it just isn't fun after that.
 
doubleh said:
...... After 3 months of exercise, etc. I went back for a checkup and was told to find a desk job as I was going to become a cripple. My wife talked me into going to a chiropractor after a few more months of getting worse. After a few adjustment over a few days I was feeling much better, the Bufferin was staying the bottle, and I could sleep at night. That has been 65 years ago and with regular chiropractic care I am still not a cripple. Oh, I have some aches and pains but that is arthritis which you get from wear and tear on you body such as shooting guns with a lot of recoil.
Click to expand...
I can say with confidence and knowledge from multiple experiences, a GOOD chiropractor can often work what would appear to be miracles. (As with medical doctors, auto mechanics, gunsmiths, or anything else, not everyone who hangs out a shingle is good. In fact, most practitioners in all these categories aren't very good.)
 
More than a Decade ago, I think it was Jim Carmichael, a gunzine editor who was a big-bore competitor did an article detailing how his ability suddenly shut down during a match, he said due to the cumulative effects of recoil. I believe he was using a 30-06 with the match round of the day loaded with a 175+- gr. bullet. As a result, he developed a couple of wildcat rounds, a .223 he named the CHEETAH, and a cartridge I believe was the beginning of the 6.5 mm craze. They both had less recoil, and allowed him to continue competing. He claimed no physical damage iirc, but the long term mental accumulation of recoil's effects seemed to have been the "trigger".
 
ETA: Military recoil limits for testing and training.

CALCULATED RECOIL ENERGY | LIMITATION ON ROUNDS
Less than 15 ft-lb (20.3 J) | Unlimited firing
15 to 30 ft-lb (20.3 to 40.7 J) | 200 rounds per day per individual
30 to 45 ft-lb (40.7 to 61.0 J) | 100 rounds per day per individual
45 to 60 ft-lb (61.0 t0 81.4 J) | 25 rounds per day per individual
Greater than 60 ft-lb (81.4 J) | No shoulder firing
Click to expand...

Free Recoil Energy is a column in my Excel file of reloads. Based on this chart, I could fire anything all day except 450 Bushmaster (17.75 ft-lb)...and I assure you I wouldn't enjoy 200/day of them :)

My loads for 6.5 Creedmore in a Savage Axis and 308 Winchester in an AR10 clock in at 11 and 9.5 ft-lbs. Admittedly the AR10 is a boat anchor at 11.25 lbs, but, still, I wouldn't think I could shoot it unlimited.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Mr. Mosin
  • Locked
Recoil & Ocular Issues
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
3Crows
3Crows
G
  • Locked
Gimmick or effective?
2
Replies
37
Views
2K
Arkansas Paul
Arkansas Paul
B
  • Locked
Most severely-recoiling firearms
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Replies
204
Views
15K
alsaqr
alsaqr
D
  • Locked
How effective is 45LC out of M6 Scout??
Replies
6
Views
3K
Preacherman
P
N
  • Locked
New (maybe) response to the "guns kill" argument
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
Seminole
Seminole
Back
Top