Are the Effects of Recoil Cumulative?

[Gun-Reck]

My term is "all day precision shoot-able."

For me, from an 8.5 lb. scoped rifle, a std. factory 150 gr. .270 Winchester (18 ft-lbs.) is, while a std. factory 180 gr. .30-06 (22 ft-lbs) is not.

From a 10.5 lb. M1 rifle, 150 gr. M2 ball (13 ft-lbs) is a pleasure to shoot.

 

[DustyGmt]

I know that most trap loads are relatively tame there are guys out there that have shot enough 12ga shotshells in their life to fill 2 or 3 dump trucks. Litterally 1,000,000+++ may even be 2,000,000+. One individual shooting that much is crazy to me but I know there are guys in my club that have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in their lifetimes and they are in their 70's and sharp as a tack. I would be doubtful that they suffered any brain damage but this is definitely not my field.

Plus take into account all the other shooting they have done off the trap field. If brain damage was a risk of high volume shooting though, I think we'd have probably heard of it.

I've definitely had my bell rung pretty good shooting higher power centerfire rifles, maybe it's possible.....

 

[Ignition Override]

Speedo66: Oh, it's so true.

The cumulative effects of recoil caused me to continue buying guns, then steadily kept selling them to help fund new interests.

It is like walking backwards on a financial escalator, like in Harrod's Dept. Store in Knightsbridge.

At :16 is where I walked in, immed. after shooting my second Mosin-Nagant 44 rifle.

 

[Bill Raby]

I shoot a 4 bore fairly frequently. That thing is getting close to 400 ft/lbs of recoil energy. I spent 30 years building up a tolerance to big rifles before I got a 4 bore. I have never had any ill effects from shooting it. I don't even get a bruised shoulder.But then I have never fired more than 4 shots in one day. If someone who never fired anything bigger than 30 caliber were to take a shot with it they would likely get to meet a nice doctor.

 

[entropy]

I know that most trap loads are relatively tame there are guys out there that have shot enough 12ga shotshells in their life to fill 2 or 3 dump trucks. Litterally 1,000,000+++ may even be 2,000,000+. One individual shooting that much is crazy to me but I know there are guys in my club that have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds in their lifetimes and they are in their 70's and sharp as a tack. I would be doubtful that they suffered any brain damage but this is definitely not my field.

Plus take into account all the other shooting they have done off the trap field. If brain damage was a risk of high volume shooting though, I think we'd have probably heard of it.

I've definitely had my bell rung pretty good shooting higher power centerfire rifles, maybe it's possible.....

Now you know why the best Trap shooters don't think; we've knocked the ability to do so out of our brains. I can't claim as many trap loads downrange as Papa G and some others here, but I will say good fit makes a big difference, and generally Trap guns weigh more than Sporting Clays, Skeet and field guns. A good recoil device helps a lot too. Some of the rifle guys might take note that Gra-Coil makes a rifle model also. I have Gra-Coils on 2 of my Trap guns, and a similar unit (Rucker Auto-Buster) on another. They definitely make a difference.

 

[Varminterror]

So what are your thoughts about possible long term brain damage effects from recoil?

First: physical cascade of recoil to the head is actually quite low, even with very high recoiling rifles, but it’s not necessarily de minimis. HOWEVER, the blast wave, what we call the “concussion” from the muzzle tends to actually be more concerning.

As an example, in many high volume fire contexts, shooters end up with headaches by the end of a shooting day, even wearing plugs and muffs, so obviously not caused by the audible volume of the reports. Many shooters attribute that headache to their muffs squeezing their head, but then 1) the same headache occurs when they use only plugs and no muffs, and 2) when they wear the same muffs for non-shooting activities like lawn work or running chainsaws they do not experience the same headaches…

Another shooter and I started looking into this a bit lately after we watched a shooter at a recent match with long bangs - his hair was blasting backwards with each shot. He asked for Advil from my pack by the 4th stage of the day. The other shooter I mentioned pointed to his brake, a very popular, highly efficient, highly effective brake, and said, “that was happening to me, and never use a [insert popular brake name] or [insert OTHER popular brake name] again - buy an ACE brake, no more concussive blast to the shooter, no more headaches.”

When I was competing in college and professionally, I took several TBI’s, and I worked with a neurologist to track my brain health for many years. Thereafter retirement, I began training more heavily in mma and kickboxing, and we saw the same traumatic responses to even heavy glove sparring as I had seen from heavier wrecks and injuries in the past. Accumulative effects are very, very real, and if your brake or muzzle blast is hitting hard enough to cause a headache by the end of your shooting day, you’re incurring injury.

Enough to slow you down? Eh, it’s up to you. I still kickbox and still shoot my highly efficient brakes. I do intend to replace my brakes in time with those which aren’t quite so concussive to the shooter, and will shoot smaller cartridges to avoid the penalty of the increased recoil/reduced brake efficacy.

 

[LimaCharlie]

Yes, the effects are cumulative both good and bad. In modest amounts the body learns to absorb and becomes more tolerant to recoil. But if you consistently over do it you will do damage to the body. Where that cut off is is harder to know and varies allot from person to person.

The military had well defined if conservative limits to how much a solder can shoot in a day of training. It's based on free recoil energy since this takes into account both the recoil/momentum-change of the ammo being fired and the weight of the weapon firing it. It's not perfect but a pretty good guide.

ETA: Military recoil limits for testing and training.

CALCULATED RECOIL ENERGY | LIMITATION ON ROUNDS
Less than 15 ft-lb (20.3 J) | Unlimited firing
15 to 30 ft-lb (20.3 to 40.7 J) | 200 rounds per day per individual
30 to 45 ft-lb (40.7 to 61.0 J) | 100 rounds per day per individual
45 to 60 ft-lb (61.0 t0 81.4 J) | 25 rounds per day per individual
Greater than 60 ft-lb (81.4 J) | No shoulder firing

Source: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA587409.pdf

Guess I shouldn't be bench shooting my Weatherby 460 Magnum with 99.6 foot-pounds of recoil energy.

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

I remember quite well what beat the snot out of me and to not shoot it again--cumulative memory.

 

[Sniper66]

Couple of stories: My brother and I have shot a lot of prairie dogs over a 15-20 year period. On one trip we shot for 4 days and killed well over 1,000 dogs. Counting the misses we shot a couple 1,000 rounds for centerfire ammo. mostly .204 and .223. We both took a few Ibuprofen on those days. Granted this volume of shooting is the exception for both of us, but we've done it for years. One wonders about the cumulative effect of it. Add to it that my brother shot competition skeet for years and emptied 10s of 1000s of rounds over many years. At age 86, he now suffers from advanced dementia. Who knows why?
Second story: I had rotator cuff shoulder surgery and asked the surgeon if he thought all my shooting (not nearly the volume of my brother) may have caused the injury. He said it is "highly unlikely" based on the site of the tear. My head is not bouncing with every shot like my shoulder, so my bet is it does not translate into brain damage. Doesn't matter really, since I plan to shoot as long as I possibly can anyway.

 

[film495]

there are studies from industry, not that I know any off the top of my head. manufacturing and such, I used to work in a factory decades ago, and they certainly measured the decibles of various areas, and they recorded and tested everyone's hearing year in year out. some areas were loud, and if you didn't have hearing protection in, it would immediately be disorienting, so you'd either exit or get your hearing protection in. we just used the little foam earplugs and apparently that was enough to prevent any type of long term damage. or so they claimed anyway, and OSHA and employment unions were all over it for safety etc.

you pose an interesting question though. you know that guy at the indoor range, and you don't know what he's shooting - but you feel it, it goes right through you and you feel like you were hit with something. I can't imagine much of that is good for you.

 

[Mk-211]

I think people suffer headaches, neck and shoulder pain from the effects of recoil. Most of which can be mitigated by proper form when shooting heavy recoiling calibers.

I would think that getting "scope eyed" would be more hazardous to you than recoil.

Have you ever watched someone shooting a rifle with heavy recoil? Some people suck it up without any issue. While others look like their heads are going to fall off. Has to be proper form and that will cut down on the effects of recoil.

I've been behind a lot of guns, as I'm sure others here have. If there was a serious threat of TBI from shooting guns, we would know about it.

 

[Capybara]

I recently experienced Vitreous Detachment, pretty common with geezers of my age and older. It, in itself, isn't too bad of a condition but it does increase the chances of retinal tearing or detachment. I've had to give up shooting any of my rifles and shotguns, other that
.22s because I am fairly terrified of losing my vision. I spoke with my Ophthalmologist about it but he isn't a shooter so I suspect he doesn't really understand the effects of recoil on your head. I've spoke with other shooters who have experienced this Vitreous Detachment and they shoot
shotguns and larger caliber rifles without any direct issues, once they've let the detachment settle down and the floaters minimize. I was told that that gap between the Vitreous will eventually fill with with clear fluid which is why the floaters settle down and it would see that clear fluid would provide for some cushioning? I've had some black and blue shoulders from shooting my Milsurps and certain shotguns, but I am having to re-evaluate what guns I may keep or ever shoot again as I cannot risk my vision to shoot long guns.

Anyone here experienced this? What did your Ophthalmologist tell you about the effects of recoil from shooting shotguns and high powered rifles on your vision? I'm a cinematographer and writer by trade so if I lose my vision, I am done for.

 

[entropy]

Your Opthalmologist will probably tell you around 3 months, start with lighter calibers, (.223, .243), and proceed cautiously. You will have follow ups, he'll give you an all clear ( hopefully) at one of them.

 

[redneck2]

Back years ago I was reading a magazine where an Alaskan guide built a (IIRC) .505 Gibbs for backup during bear hunts. When he shot it, his vision flashed. His eye doctor said it was his retina detaching due to recoil.

 

[Capybara]

That’s fairly scary.

 

[PzGren]

The forces of light firearms are relatively mild in comparison to the punch of a trained fighter. While the average boxer can deliver a punch of 700 lbs of force, a heavy weight can deliver up to 1,700 lbs. If 60 lbs of recoil delivered to the shoulder from shooting a rifle could have a damaging effect to the brain, then the force of a boxer's own punch that is transmitted back into the shoulder should hurt himself.

 

[Chief TC]

Personally, I have been thrown out of alignment after a long period of time due to recoil from what I shoot. It is significant recoil but nothing real harsh. So going to a chiropractor to get adjusted is important. And doing specific exercises and stretches for your shoulders to help keep alignment.

 

[entropy]

The forces of light firearms are relatively mild in comparison to the punch of a trained fighter. While the average boxer can deliver a punch of 700 lbs of force, a heavy weight can deliver up to 1,700 lbs. If 60 lbs of recoil delivered to the shoulder from shooting a rifle could have a damaging effect to the brain, then the force of a boxer's own punch that is transmitted back into the shoulder should hurt himself.

F=m x a. If the boxer's arm were going at anything near the velocity of a recoiling gun, this would be true. The difference is also the area to which that force is applied. If a heavyweight boxer could apply that 1700 pounds of force at the same velocity as a shotgun stock applies it's force into a shoulder, and do it into as small an area, it would devastate that area. There is a reason recoil is measured in Ft./lbs.

Effect on target has a part also. A boxer punching a human target will accrue less damage to their shoulder than the same boxer punching a solid concrete wall.

 

[PzGren]

If a heavyweight boxer could apply that 1700 pounds of force at the same velocity as a shotgun stock applies it's force into a shoulder, and do it into as small an area, it would devastate that area. There is a reason recoil is measured in Ft./lbs.

Effect on target has a part also. A boxer punching a human target will accrue less damage to their shoulder than the same boxer punching a solid concrete wall.

The recoil pad of a rifle or handgun grips are a little larger than the bullet, too . A boxer hitting a solid target like a wall will break his hand, not the shoulder. It happens often enough when a solid chin is hit.