Are we going to lose the battle on background checks for every gun purchase?

[Sovblocgunfan]

I liken those who want total abolition of private gun ownership to those, on the other side, who want machine guns to be sold from vending machines in gas stations and 7-11's. Neither group is at all realistic and, frankly, they each have more than a few screws loose.

so even though you confirm in many other posts that you are able to own full auto (not begrudging you your success, mind), you do not support the ability of all peace-loving citizens to do the same? I can only assume that is the case, because you characterize free access to firearms as similar to something sold in a convenience store (accessible by everyone), and you characterize those who would support that (and thus support elimination of NFA ‘34) as having a few screws loose.

Maybe I misunderstand, but what you wrote absolutely does not sit right with me. It comes across as a bit hypocritical and elitist. I hope I’m wrong. Because I would love it if MG’s were available to all peace loving citizens. Hell, anybody can own FA in Belgium, Argentina, and New Zealand. Why not here?

I’d also LOVE it if I could buy an MG from a vending machine. If you can do a 4473 from a kiosk (this is possible), and cars are delivered from vending machines all over the place, why not?

Back on topic. We’ve already lost because we are already talking about being okay with it so we can be left in peace.

We are one president and one generation away.

 

[jmr40]

Not something I'm worrying about. I know this is a touchy subject, but the fact is that there are many people who should not have a gun. The real debate is who should and who shouldn't. I'm not opposed at all to preventing gun sales to an awful lot of people. If someone can come up with a system that will keep guns away from those who shouldn't have them and protect the rights of those who should then I'm not opposed.

BUT... if someone is qualified to own a gun, they should be able to own ANY gun. Full auto, short barrels, suppressors, any practical magazine capacity, you name it.

This is an area where I feel the NRA and all pro gun folks have failed. Instead of opposing any gun related law and always being reactive, I feel the NRA should have been proactive in proposing laws that would actually work to prevent gun violence while at the same time expanding rights to those who are responsible. Go on the offensive rather than always being on the defensive.

The argument that ANY law will just lead to more laws just ain't right. Laws are passed, tweaked, modified, and repealed all the time. The 1994 AWB had gun owners pulling out their hair. But the unintended consequences of that law actually led to more assault weapons being produced and created much better carry laws. We as gun owners have far more rights today than we did in 1994. Even without the 10 year sunset written into the law it would have been repealed by now anyway.

 

[Walkalong]

The argument that ANY law will just lead to more laws just ain't right.

I disagree, some have a great chance of it, especially when those pushing them are expecting them to.

We as gun owners have far more rights today than we did in 1994

Arguably true.

Even without the 10 year sunset written into the law it would have been repealed by now anyway.

I don't know about that, and actually, I doubt that.

UBCs are going to be hard to stop. The end result hoped and planned for by those who are pushing them is indeed registration and then confiscation, never forget that. They have made it crystal clear what the end goal is.

They want all of the guns, period, and are satisfied to break the rock a chip at a time in necessary.

History proves registration leads to confiscation, and often to genocide.

Where do you suggest we stop giving in and say no more? UBCs? The next big thing?

It dang well better be before we go over the cliff and there is no hope.

 

[AlexanderA]

so even though you confirm in many other posts that you are able to own full auto (not begrudging you your success, mind), you do not support the ability of all peace-loving citizens to do the same? I can only assume that is the case, because you characterize free access to firearms as similar to something sold in a convenience store (accessible by everyone), and you characterize those who would support that (and thus support elimination of NFA ‘34) as having a few screws loose.

The pre-86 system for FA worked fairly well. (All mine were acquired before 86, and I didn't pay all that much for them.) Although in theory I'm pretty close to a 2A absolutist, I realize that in practice there have to be restrictions. Especially for machine guns. But there's no justification for the Hughes prohibition.

 

[Deanimator]

Not something I'm worrying about. I know this is a touchy subject, but the fact is that there are many people who should not have a gun. The real debate is who should and who shouldn't. I'm not opposed at all to preventing gun sales to an awful lot of people. If someone can come up with a system that will keep guns away from those who shouldn't have them and protect the rights of those who should then I'm not opposed.

What should the criteria be for determining who shouldn't own a gun? Should it include non-criminal social media posts?

And if guns, why not cars and knives? It wasn't so very long ago that we had a "car and knife" jihadi at Ohio State. Why should he have been allowed to drive or possess edged weapons?

 

[Kaybee]

Anyway, I’d like to see legislation that prohibits the government from enacting registration and tracking of law abiding citizens that own firearms.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Anyway, I’d like to see legislation that prohibits the government from enacting registration and tracking of law abiding citizens that own firearms.

Already exists. Volker-McClure (FOPA)

https://www.congress.gov/bill/99th-congress/senate-bill/49

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Are we going to eventually lose this battle and background checks on all gun sales, private and public will become the law?

Yes. Absolutely. I'm surprised that we haven't lost it already. I believe that, ultimately, we will lose all the battles on gun control, and we will eventually be like the Soviet Union in this regard. I don't believe that will happen in the near future, but it's not more than a couple generations away. Perhaps less. We are essentially fighting a delaying action with no hope for ultimate victory. But these are only my thoughts, and I've been known to be a glass half empty kind of guy.

 

[AlexanderA]

Anyway, I’d like to see legislation that prohibits the government from enacting registration and tracking of law abiding citizens that own firearms.

Later legislation overrides earlier legislation, so it's impossible for your suggestion to work. The only constraint would be constitutional, and we already have that (the 2nd Amendment). As we have seen, that has limited utility.

 

[Rock185]

IMHO, yes.

 

[ROCK6]

I think the ignorance of the masses and the deceitfulness of representatives will eventually get some form of "universal background checks" and several add-ons passed. It has nothing to do with public safety, it has everything to do with making a compliant public and so severely restricting or outright banning of firearm ownership, that the 2A becomes irrelevant for their campaign speeches.

We have an openly pro-Socialist group of politicians, and the only way for a Socialist state to succeed is to have an unarmed population and a brutal police-state to enforce it; it's basic History 101.

As soon as UBC's get "implemented", there will be no drop in crime involving firearms. Well, we need to clamp down even further, so the only rational push would be to register all firearm transactions to assist the police in enforcement. Well what about all the firearms not federally registered? Well, common-sense gun legislation is necessary to have all law-abiding citizen register their firearms. Wow, they will exclaim, that's an expensive piece of law...we'll need to apply a tax to help fund this public safety measure! Unregistered firearms will criminalize their owners and uncontrolled tax rates will make ownership too onerous to maintain. Red Flag laws will be constantly re-defined by the bureaucratical winds and any form of hate speech will be applied, maybe even a tax lien, you-name the offensive nature, likely even retroactively, thereby making the gun-owner a target for firearm removal...all for public safety and to help our law enforcement community.

Oh, crime continues despite draconian measures. We have to remove firearms from the homes of gunowners because of some massive database leak that now jeopardizes the addresses of all gun owners. Oh shucks, time to push for a Safety and Storage Law that will force every registered gun owner to pay a storage fee at government-authorized gun clubs; all at the expense of the gun-owners. Now, Socialism Utopia is a single step away by declaring an emergency at any advantageous crisis and federalize all the gun clubs to control and cease all access to private citizens...all for public safety. The path to utopia! We'll make Venezuela look like a vacation!

ROCK6

 

[Jeff H]

UBCs are going to be hard to stop.

I have to agree. If not this year, certainly in 2 years when the Dems get a few more Senate seats. I just don't see the Bule wave subsiding anytime soon with DJT in the White House enraging all the liberals.


It isn't the end of the world though. Out of all of the firearms I've bought, only one was a private transfer, I guess I could have conducted that at a gun shop for a nominal fee.

Actually, the biggest thing I'm against is forcing the gun shops to perform UBCs on every purchase, whether private or part of the shops business. I think there will be some price gouging for the 5 minute phone call. What is that worth? I have a handful of gun shops within a 20 min drive. What about the guy with one shop an hour away.

A trade for HPA or national CC reciprocity would be something to consider though.

 

[fpgt72]

No, it's the BEGINNING of the end of the world.

It's the opening gambit for REGISTRATION, which has NO purpose beyond facilitation of future CONFISCATION.

You're offering a crocodile your finger so he won't take your arm.

Good luck with that.

And you could be right, then again it could be nothing like amnesty of 1968....thing is we really don't know.

The shame is with the current crop of folk calling the shots, I don't trust them.....ANY OF THEM....as in NONE.

 

[alsaqr]

Big fight in US House Democrat ranks yesterday after about two dozen Democrats joined Republicans and amended the UBC bill to require notification of ICE whenever an illegal attempts to purchase a gun.

"Triggering the blowup was Wednesday’s votes on a bill to expand federal background checks for gun purchases. Twenty-six moderate Democrats joined Republicans in amending the legislation, adding a provision requiring that ICE be notified if an illegal immigrant seeks to purchase a gun.

That infuriated liberals who have railed against ICE’s role in conducting mass deportations and embarrassed Democratic leaders who couldn’t keep their members in line on a high-profile bill."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...moderates/ar-BBUdVVT?li=BBnb7Kz&OCID=AVRES000

 

[BSA1]

While the O.P. and some other members are willing to throw in the towel all is not as grim as they portray it. We are in the middle of boxing match and the fight is far from over.

The future is with women. Remember the saying "If Momma ain't happy, no one is happy." Our society of deadbeat Dads, fewer marriages and long-term relationships has resulted in single Moms raising a family by themselves. Women recognize they are a high target for criminals and are vulnerable to domestic violence. As they learn the Police are powerless to protect they turn to guns to protect themselves and their children.

The NRA along with gun manufacturers recognize this and are aggressively reaching out to them. A key point about UBC's and waiting periods that should be made to women is having their gun still at the gun store for the background check to pass and waiting periods ("cooling off" for whom?) doesn't protect them when a violent ex is at their front door beating on it and threatening to kill her after the door is opened.

Women also have the most influence on what children learn. Educate Momma and she will pass that onto her children.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Dan Crenshaw gets it. This isnt about “guns”. This is about infringement of individual liberty.

Why are we okay with this? Just because we think it will get “us” something in return? Individual liberty of others isn’t something we are supposed to be able to bargain away like its on Craigslist.

https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/201...yrdwZB0kB49LYTBupev0pCPNP9m_-F5CuZz6lSHpr8pl8

 

[MachIVshooter]

Dan Crenshaw gets it. This isnt about “guns”. This is about infringement of individual liberty.

Of course it is. Same as any gun control measure.

Why are we okay with this? Just because we think it will get “us” something in return? Individual liberty of others isn’t something we are supposed to be able to bargain away like its on Craigslist.

Save for maybe a couple members, none of us are "OK" with it. It's just that some of us realize the writing is on the wall. The general public overwhelmingly supports UBC, view it as perfectly reasonable and minimally encumbering. Anti-gunners, the majority non-gunner and even a decent share of gun owners favor the idea. It has more public support than red flag laws, which are sailing through state legislatures as we speak.

The point I have been trying to make is that with the current balance of power, we stand to minimize it's impact and possibly get one or two of the things we've been wanting attached to this. If we stonewall it, they'll ram it through hard when the dems have majority control again, and at that time it'll be far worse with absolutely zero positives for gun owners.

 

[BSA1]

The point I have been trying to make is that with the current balance of power, we stand to minimize it's impact and possibly get one or two of the things we've been wanting attached to this.

Except the one or two things you want are not what I want.

For example conceal carry laws have been successfully enacted in most States without any help from the Federal Government. Carry agreements have been negotiated between many States again without any help from the Federal Government.

Many members will agree that the Federal Government has too much power over our lives. Yet having successfully fought for Conceal and Open Carry laws now you want to give the Feds authority over our hard won rights to carry.

If we stonewall it, they'll ram it through hard when the dems have majority control again, and at that time it'll be far worse with absolutely zero positives for gun owners.

The Democrats are going to ram through all of the anti-gun laws they can when they regain power. H.R.8 is showing us just one example of how extreme their laws will be.

Like I said you are going to get the drizzles if you don't come out of the rain.

 

[Doc7]

Big fight in US House Democrat ranks yesterday after about two dozen Democrats joined Republicans and amended the UBC bill to require notification of ICE whenever an illegal attempts to purchase a gun.

"Triggering the blowup was Wednesday’s votes on a bill to expand federal background checks for gun purchases. Twenty-six moderate Democrats joined Republicans in amending the legislation, adding a provision requiring that ICE be notified if an illegal immigrant seeks to purchase a gun.

That infuriated liberals who have railed against ICE’s role in conducting mass deportations and embarrassed Democratic leaders who couldn’t keep their members in line on a high-profile bill."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...moderates/ar-BBUdVVT?li=BBnb7Kz&OCID=AVRES000

They are literally targeting this bill at conservative law abiding gun owners, who may in general comply with UBC.

Criminals who illegally attempt to purchase a firearm will continue to not get prosecuted (shameful even with a Republican President!)

Illegal immigrants can fail and walk away.

But I won’t be able to lend or sell a gun to my neighbor or coworker.

Disgusting.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Except the one or two things you want are not what I want.

For example conceal carry laws have been successfully enacted in most States without any help from the Federal Government. Carry agreements have been negotiated between many States again without any help from the Federal Government.

Many members will agree that the Federal Government has too much power over our lives. Yet having successfully fought for Conceal and Open Carry laws now you want to give the Feds authority over our hard won rights to carry.

It's pretty clear that a number of folks are reading what I say but not understanding it.

National reciprocity is not the same as federally issued CC permit/license. The latter I wouldn't want at all. Wouldn't it be nice, though, if instead of a patchwork of reciprocity that changes somewhat frequently, you knew your state permit was valid in the other 49 states? You don't want that?

As for HPA, there's a large portion of the community who'd love to have it, and an even bigger amount who may be ambivalent, but would reap the benefits if it came to fruition.

I don't know what it is you want, what else you think might be feasible pro-gun bits to stick on a distasteful bill. I can't think of any that would really be helpful yet are also remotely possible. Yeah, it'd be nice to see NFA go away entirely, but that ain't happening, now or ever. It's pretty easy to convince non-gunners and other moderates that national reciprocity and deregulated suppressors are good things with no downside, but you're not gonna win many hearts and minds arguing to the effect that access to machine guns & grenade launchers should be as easy as a shotgun or .38 revolver.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I think the ignorance of the masses and the deceitfulness of representatives will eventually get some form of "universal background checks" and several add-ons passed. It has nothing to do with public safety, it has everything to do with making a compliant public and so severely restricting or outright banning of firearm ownership, that the 2A becomes irrelevant for their campaign speeches.

We have an openly pro-Socialist group of politicians, and the only way for a Socialist state to succeed is to have an unarmed population and a brutal police-state to enforce it; it's basic History 101.

As soon as UBC's get "implemented", there will be no drop in crime involving firearms. Well, we need to clamp down even further, so the only rational push would be to register all firearm transactions to assist the police in enforcement. Well what about all the firearms not federally registered? Well, common-sense gun legislation is necessary to have all law-abiding citizen register their firearms. Wow, they will exclaim, that's an expensive piece of law...we'll need to apply a tax to help fund this public safety measure! Unregistered firearms will criminalize their owners and uncontrolled tax rates will make ownership too onerous to maintain. Red Flag laws will be constantly re-defined by the bureaucratical winds and any form of hate speech will be applied, maybe even a tax lien, you-name the offensive nature, likely even retroactively, thereby making the gun-owner a target for firearm removal...all for public safety and to help our law enforcement community.

Oh, crime continues despite draconian measures. We have to remove firearms from the homes of gunowners because of some massive database leak that now jeopardizes the addresses of all gun owners. Oh shucks, time to push for a Safety and Storage Law that will force every registered gun owner to pay a storage fee at government-authorized gun clubs; all at the expense of the gun-owners. Now, Socialism Utopia is a single step away by declaring an emergency at any advantageous crisis and federalize all the gun clubs to control and cease all access to private citizens...all for public safety. The path to utopia! We'll make Venezuela look like a vacation!

ROCK6

You should change your screen name to..."The Prophet"

 

[D.B. Cooper]

We have an openly pro-Socialist group of politicians...

And we also have two generations of young people who are openly, rabidly socialist who are chomping at the bit to support them.

...the only way for a Socialist state to succeed is to have an unarmed population and a brutal police-state to enforce it; it's basic History 101.

I JUST had this discussion with my US Government class yesterday. (Seriously, not even 24 hours ago) after watching "Animal Farm."

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

It's just that some of us realize the writing is on the wall. The general public overwhelmingly supports UBC, view it as perfectly reasonable and minimally encumbering. Anti-gunners, the majority non-gunner and even a decent share of gun owners favor the idea. It has more public support than red flag laws, which are sailing through state legislatures as we speak.

The point I have been trying to make is that with the current balance of power, we stand to minimize it's impact and possibly get one or two of the things we've been wanting attached to this. If we stonewall it, they'll ram it through hard when the dems have majority control again, and at that time it'll be far worse with absolutely zero positives for gun owners.

Okay then. I have two questions for you.

If we are going to get behind UBC’s and make them the law of the land, how does government enforce that law?

And, regarding the theoretical goodies we get in exchange for bartering away someone else’s liberty, how will we ensure government can’t undo what “gains” we get?

 

[Jim Watson]

Criminals who illegally attempt to purchase a firearm will continue to not get prosecuted

Of course not. They are hard to find and might shoot at you if you try to arrest them.
Lots easier and safer to manufacture an excuse to ring up Joe Schmuck whose worst offense is a couple of magazine dumps when he can afford it from his beer fund.

 

[Jeff H]

Save for maybe a couple members, none of us are "OK" with it. It's just that some of us realize the writing is on the wall. The general public overwhelmingly supports UBC, view it as perfectly reasonable and minimally encumbering. Anti-gunners, the majority non-gunner and even a decent share of gun owners favor the idea. It has more public support than red flag laws, which are sailing through state legislatures as we speak.

My wife who stays up with national news tells me the poll she saw the other day put support at 90% for UBC. Seems high to me, and certainly not a FOX poll, but those numbers are hard to overcome if they are close to correct.