are you a traditionalist or do you like technology?

[wolfe28]

I'm in the traditional camp. I love the look and feel of the classic front-stuffers. I have metalic cartrige guns for any time I want to go "modern". Don't have anything against in-lines, they just arn't for me.

D

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

i hate in line with a passion and feel that they should only be legal during the normal rifle season unless you have bad eyes

..I think that they should only be legal during rifle season, even if you have bad eyes!

give me technology anyday! if it was allowed in this state, i would have bought one of those in-lines that can shoot smokeless powder. but in michigan you have to use bp, or bp subs. so it didnt make any sense to me to spend the extra maney for one

So much for a "primative" season.....using a caseless centerfire rifle. It amazes me the number of in-line users who think it's O.K. to use a in-line during black powder season, but go ballistic and have a hissy fit when they want to allow crossbows during bow season....main argument: it's too 'easy'

Now don't forget BHP FAN us Virginia boys did have a few inline ignition style rifles that was a conversion of old Hall breachloaders.

Well, if you dig one up from a civil war battlefield that has a synthetic stock, 3x9 variable scope, fiberglass ramrod, uses 209 primers for ignition, and shot smokeless powder to propel a jacketed bullet with a plastic sabot, then I might, might change my position on the subject, but until then, I am a traditionalist when it comes to a muzzleloading season.

 

[mykeal]

It amazes me the number of in-line users who think it's O.K. to use a in-line during black powder season, but go ballistic and have a hissy fit when they want to allow crossbows during bow season

Who said anything about crossbows???? I have seen exactly zero posts in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that meet your criteria for amazement (inline users having hissy fits about crossbows).

Well, if you dig one up from a civil war battlefield that has a synthetic stock, 3x9 variable scope, fiberglass ramrod, uses 209 primers for ignition, and shot smokeless powder to propel a jacketed bullet with a plastic sabot, then I might, might change my position on the subject, but until then, I am a traditionalist when it comes to a muzzleloading season.

You need to get a handle on reality. Nobody here was trying to get you to 'change your position' - they simply stated theirs, and you don't seem to be able to handle that.

Which 16 gauge bp smoothbore do you shoot?

 

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Who said anything about crossbows???? I have seen exactly zero posts in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that meet your criteria for amazement (inline users having hissy fits about crossbows).

I was speaking in generalities here....there is another site where the 'argument' against making MI muzzleloading season a truly primative season is because "you gotta go with the times; can't stop technology; in-lines were used in the civil war, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.......and these same people have a hissy fit when it affects 'their' bowhunting because they don't want crossbows allowed (you can use the same arguments for procross bow as they use for pro inline, but they don't want to hear it). Michigan's "muzzleloading" season was meant to be a primative season; not a "we gotta kill deer at 200+ yards using a caseless rifle" season. I get tired of hearing 'those old muzzleloaders only wound deer", and then have the same A-hole tell me about 'the one that got away' because he flubbed a 200 yard shot using a pistol bullet in a sabot!

You need to get a handle on reality. Nobody here was trying to get you to 'change your position' - they simply stated theirs, and you don't seem to be able to handle that.

Get a handle on your own reality....Michigan's season should be primitive: no glass sights, loose powder, patched round ball or solid lead conical, and side lock using flint, cap, or matchlock ignition.....nothing else. The 'reality' is that the DNR has allowed the bastardization of this season for two long.

For the record, I don't have a 16 gauge BP smoothbore....I have a 20 gauge smoothbore flintlock trade musket, as well as a .54 cal caplock Hawken.

 

[John Wayne]

As has been stated before, the appeal for me lies in the nostalgia.

If I want modern performance, I shoot modern cartridge arms.

 

[oklahoma caveman]

Who said anything about crossbows???? I have seen exactly zero posts in this thread (or anywhere else for that matter) that meet your criteria for amazement (inline users having hissy fits about crossbows

actually i believe i did. in reference to OK regs. you can only use a crossbow if you have a disability that prohibits your using a recurve or compound bow. i feel inline use should be regulated the same. i mean it is called "primitive" season for a reason. now mygrandma is a parapalegic who uses an inline. its easier for her to use and helps because she cant see irons to well with her bifocals. that to me is understandable. but otherwise i see no reason to be allowed to use them during primitive season.

 

[elmerfudd]

If modern muzzleloaders were just quirky anachronisms, then I would like them. I think it's kind of cool when a bunch of enthusiasts try to go back and reinvent the wheel using modern technology. The real problem is that people are doing it not because of any love of muzzleloading or history, but simply because they want to take advantage of any loophole they can find in the hunting regulations. The traditional seasons were created so that hunters could hunt with traditional weapons, not so that we could reverse engineer a Remington 700. We've already got the modern seasons for modern weapons and if someone wants to hunt with a scoped in-line that's when he should do it.

 

[Matt-J2]

While we're here, I don't see why you should be allowed to use any sort of firearm for any season labelled as 'Primitive'. Should be only for those using things like spears and atl-atls. There's nothing primitive about gunpowder.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I love my Ky flintlock and I want my bow with out pullys also. Real arrows with feathers and no silly trigger . That what fingers for.

 

[oklahoma caveman]

actually there is. read the art of war. research for yourself and see when bp was invented. bp is primitive

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

personally im a traditionalist. i love a side hammer or flintlock muzzleloader. i hate in line with a passion and feel that they should only be legal during the normal rifle season unless you have bad eyes. and the new electric ignition muzzleloader

I'm not a big traditionalist, but I too think that that all the modern technology should be banned during traditional season. I'm absolutely with you on that one. The traditional season should be traditional, not an end run around traditional.

Now if it's legal, I'm gonna use it. But it shouldn't be legal. It's ridiculous (scopes, saboted conical bullets - jacketed, no less, inlines, plastic stocks, powder pellets) - but, I'm gonna take full advantage.

 

[Quickdraw Limpsalot]

Never fired an in-line muzzleloader, most likely never will. I don't care what other people use, but personally I don't care for them. It's kinda like cutting a piece of cake, then taking everything except the piece you cut... because, well... the rest of the cake is a "piece" too, right?

Inlines load from the muzzle too, right?

So does a mortar.

 

[dirty dave]

I just love to smoke them all.Have a brown bess copy to a knight inline,many revolvers and just as many single shots.most of what I shoot and hunt with these days,have pump shotguns and bolt rifles but shoot smoke poles for eveything I hunt now.

 

[nicholst55]

Traditionalist; preferably flintlocks. But... the effective range and accuracy of them newfangled inlines has got me to thinking.....

 

[Lt. B]

Wowww....Quite a few things come to mind here. I get the feeling that traditionalists look down their nose at the inline guys. Thats just silly. The majority of your "flintlocks" arent really traditional now are they. They were manufactured with the latest in modern Tech to mass produce a safer product. The ignition systems.....are they really traditional?? And if they are ..so what?? From my perspective as an outsider who admires both old and new, or is it newold modified or whatever....Muzzle loading requires the user to develop a whole different set of skills. How much powder? what grain bullet? how far? You have to have a well practiced loading procedure to find acuracy with either. One or two shots are all you have...It has to count.I would advise you NOT to lobby against your brother in arms or you may just find yourself being lobbied against. I like muzzlloaders because of the FREEDOM. How much longer do you think the lefties are going to let us keep em anyway? For Gods sake dont be creating lines where they dont need to exist.

 

[Matt-J2]

actually there is. read the art of war. research for yourself and see when bp was invented. bp is primitive

Irrelevant. I don't consider BP to be old enough to constitute being primitive. It should be banned from any hunting season labeled as such. So should metal broadheads on arrows, and any bow made with modern materials like fiberglass or plastic.

 

[Voodoochile]

While we're here, I don't see why you should be allowed to use any sort of firearm for any season labelled as 'Primitive'. Should be only for those using things like spears and atl-atls. There's nothing primitive about gunpowder.

In one form I see your point but again I don't.
Granted Primitive weapons are what you describe but then again do you go out to hunt say a Bear with just a rock, that too is considered primitive but wait most areas do have a Archery season where you can use such weapons if you do desire.

Irrelevant. I don't consider BP to be old enough to constitute being primitive. It should be banned from any hunting season labeled as such. So should metal broadheads on arrows, and any bow made with modern materials like fiberglass or plastic.

So 1000 years isn't old enough?
If you go against one group of brethren because of the gear that they use, eventually you'll be all alone & there will not be any hunting allowed which is what the Anti's want.

To me I think it's a good thing that there is some modern technology involved with both Archery & Muzzle loading because who knows maybe some of these people that start out with the more modern gear will try & find that they like the more matured gear of our fore fathers, at least it does bring in more new people into our sport which in the long goal will help keep the Anti's at bay so that our next generation may be able to enjoy our sport as well, granted like I mentioned earlier I prefer my more traditional side lock muzzle loader over a inline but that is my preference & as Archery goes & do like both my Recurve & my Compound bow for hunting & target.

 

[Harve Curry]

I use both. I only own a Hawken and a Zouave but have been around and used quite a few inlines. When your hunting big game I don't have a problem with modern projectiles in a traditional muzzleloader either. I've seen them make the difference between wounded & got away vs dead on it's tracks. It's good to see progress and new inventions even in muzzloaders. I think inline muzzloaders first appeared around the 1790's. A good rifleman with a iron sighted muzzleloader is limited to about 150 yards, scoped inline is limited to about 300 yards. Some places out west you may never see a shot less then 200 yards.Use what you like, but leave the noisey ATV's in camp miles from the hunting ground.

 

[Matt-J2]

So 1000 years isn't old enough?

Quite frankly, no. Now also consider that while BP was developed in the 9th century(so more like 1200years old), firearms weren't developed until pretty late in the 13th century. We're certainly not talking about any of those here, either, so skip ahead again. In the early 16th century we see rifled barrels invented, though not in common use yet. It's not until nearly the middle of the 17th century that we see even the 'lowly' flintlock developed. So we're not even talking about 1200 year old technology, we're talking, at most, less than 400 year old technology. Given the more common use of the caplock system, which really came about in the early half of the 19th century, we're looking at less than 200 year old tech. I think at this point we're well beyond primitive. I will mention only in passing the modern materials used in even these reproductions, as I treat it merely as a point to consider, not as anything actually relevant. Especially in light of this:

If you go against one group of brethren because of the gear that they use, eventually you'll be all alone & there will not be any hunting allowed which is what the Anti's want.

You do, in fact, understand the purpose of my posts on this matter, even the above portion of this post. Point 1, is as you say above. Point 2 is that if you're going to put yourself out and complain about tool X being used in X season, be prepared to meet the same sort of response. Especially for a season with a ridiculous naming convention such as 'primitive'. That's really my only peeve with it.

 

[.38 Special]

Ah, but the counterpoint is that "primitive" seasons came about on the premise that hunting season can be opened earlier for a select group of folks using less capable weapons -- which ostensibly results in a smaller "harvest". Human nature being what it is, inlines came about as an "end run" around the rules. So there are folks who are a bit bugged that the inline crowd gamed the rules.

On a separate note, I sense a bit of superiority from the inline crowd -- not on this thread, but in the field -- based upon the idea that their guns are "better". My personal experience has been that few of these folks have ever owned a traditional gun, and few of those that have knew how to manage them. I am sure I am not the only flintlock shooter who has ever been annoyed by the "That there flintlock goes off what, half the time? And even when it does, it's not like those old guns could hit anything!" inline ignorance at the local range. Combined with the "300 yards" type silliness, it's enough to turn a fellow into a retro grouch.

 

[.38 Special]

FWIW, though, I have met my share of "superior" traditionalists too. I have a capgun that my grandfather made about a thousand years ago, and it means a lot to me. And I once had a fellow with a nice custom flinter sneer at me and make some comment about getting a "real" gun. I carried a matchlock to that range for a month afterward, hoping to get my revenge, but he never showed up.

 

[Voodoochile]

Quite frankly, no. Now also consider that while BP was developed in the 9th century(so more like 1200years old), firearms weren't developed until pretty late in the 13th century. We're certainly not talking about any of those here, either, so skip ahead again. In the early 16th century we see rifled barrels invented, though not in common use yet. It's not until nearly the middle of the 17th century that we see even the 'lowly' flintlock developed. So we're not even talking about 1200 year old technology, we're talking, at most, less than 400 year old technology. Given the more common use of the caplock system, which really came about in the early half of the 19th century, we're looking at less than 200 year old tech. I think at this point we're well beyond primitive. I will mention only in passing the modern materials used in even these reproductions, as I treat it merely as a point to consider, not as anything actually relevant. Especially in light of this:

Point taken but when you stated BP & not a specific weapons type I had to generalize, & granted to many that do own these newer muzzle loaders do not either know how to get these more traditional rifles to function like they want or really appreciate the history of how these pieces were developed.

If you go against one group of brethren because of the gear that they use, eventually you'll be all alone & there will not be any hunting allowed which is what the Anti's want.

You do, in fact, understand the purpose of my posts on this matter, even the above portion of this post. Point 1, is as you say above. Point 2 is that if you're going to put yourself out and complain about tool X being used in X season, be prepared to meet the same sort of response. Especially for a season with a ridiculous naming convention such as 'primitive'. That's really my only peeve with it.

Well unfortunately many states call it Primitive be it muzzle loader or Archery because of some burocrats {sp} that do understand the meaning of the word but use the word to make it simpler for them to generalize the weapons being used for that particular season, in one way I understand your point but I've learned to let it flow since our world is changing every minute & to argue over the use of a particular word instead of just enjoying the time in the woods makes for a shorter life that can be enjoyed.

 

[Matt-J2]

I let it flow too. It's just an annoyance with semantics at this point, not somehting that actually bothers me. Posting was too much fun though, so I found it hard to stop once started.

 

[grey8833]

I shoot a Hawken and Colt Walker, own an old Remington Automatic. I think the BP guns are a lot more fun to shoot, but frankly, I don't care what you shoot (really, whatever you have >>> .22 plinker to a .50 cal. sniper rifle) as long as you back the 2nd and vote.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I'm a traditionalist and wouldn't buy a new fangled inline but wouldn't turn my nose up on shooting one, accepting one as a gift or buying one DIRT cheap. Personally, I like the Billinghurst inline that another member posted a pic of at this forum.