Arsenal .223 or 5.45 AK?

1st assault rifle?

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Dollar An Hour

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Hey Guys - This will be my first EBR, and I had the hots for an Arsenal in 5.45 until I learned they're not apparently available anymore.

I can, however, get one in .223. So I guess the good news is ammo will be plentiful in the foreseeable future. While the bad news is it'll be more expensive than 5.45...

Or, rather than a .223 Arsenal, do I get into something like a AK-74 from Lancaster, or a Polish Interarms WZ-88 Tantal for under $600? I like the cheap ammo, and the Russian round seems a better fit for the AK platform.

I've searched message boards and processed a lot of info, to the point of it being overwhelming. Maybe I've gotten to paralysis by analysis, I don't know.

Actually, I'm open to suggestions, just want a fun-to-shoot rifle that is easy to maintain, and will double as a great SHTF piece. :evil:
 
Hello.

I bought a Saiga .223 while looking for a neat .223 carbine that I could play with. I figured that the price would go up in a few months and I'd convert it to true AK-spec later on. I spent $220 on the gun. Later, I spent around $130 on parts.

I then added a POSP 4x scope to it, just for grins. So what do I have? An amazing quality AK that shoots commercial .223, has 35 round magazines (I use Galil Orlites), great optics, chrome-lined barrel, and the configuration I always wanted.

So all-in-all, I spent maybe $450 on this gun.

DSC03737-1.jpg

PB030008.jpg

Not trying to make it hard for you, but just letting you know that Arsenal quality can be had for half the Arsenal price.
 
A really great shooter, and with really CHEAP ammo is the AK-74 in 5.45x39.

Right now, you can by 1080 round cans of Bulgarian corrosive military surplus ammo for $118.00 a can.

For a rifle, I recommend an Ohio Rapid Fire AK-74. It's built with the excellent Arsenal/Global Trades fully hardened stamped receiver, and a new, matching serial number Bulgarian AK-74 parts kit.

The rifle sells for $500.00 with your choice of wood or synthetic stock and handguards, or in the folding stock paratrooper version with wood or synthetic handguards for $600.00

Mine is fully the equal of the Bulgarian SLR-96 milled receiver rifle I had.

If you go this way, hock the farm or steal the money and buy as many cans of ammo as you can stack up while it's cheap.
Even though it's corrosive, all you need to do is add the step of flushing with hot water to your normal cleaning.

Not a great picture, but a great rifle:
2.gif

The famed 5.45x39 7N6-PS "Poison" or "Devil's" bullet with the mild steel core.
The bullet tumbles when it hits:

PICT0001.jpg
 
I just got the arsenal ak 2 days ago. havent shot it yet, but it looks great. it has a better finish than my romanian wasr, century folder and norinco nhm91.

i also love the folding stock. it's rock solid closed or open. mine has a 2 stage trigger, but I think I remember all aks being two stage.

meanwhile, here are a few pics.


DSC00067.gif
DSC00066.gif
arsenal.gif
 
My concern with buying any 5.45x39 is that you are tied to imported ammo. The supply could be cut off at any time and AFAICT, there is no domestic source for 5.45 ammo, brass or 0.221 bullets.

At least there are domestic suppliers of 5.56 ammo and components, and even 7.62x39.

Just something to think about.
 
yongxingfreesty

Nice AK! Is the stock Russian or American length? Have you tried Galil Orlites?

Does anyone know of IMI M16 mag adapters for the 223 Galil will work on the Arsenal?

Sort of AK :)

golani-1.jpg
 
I'd go for the caliber that you want regardless of what the critics say. Each has it's advantages over the other. 5.45 is definitely cheaper and easier to stock up on these days. .223 is more common and can be had anytime down the road. 5.45 may not be available outside of imported supply, but if it came to it I'm sure someone will step up and provide it here to fill the market it has. Also it might just be me, but it seems that 5.45 is the proper AK cartridge anyways and .223 is just a novelty AK round. Last time I checked it's been around thirty years or so since the change was made to 5.45 and everyone seems to still discredit the round for whatever reason. If you want a popular easy to get cartridge for your rifle, buy an AR and shoot .223 out of it. Otherwise, keep the 5.45 AK's going.
 
The Arsenal SLR 106 line has been notorious for feeding issues, whether magazine related or whether caused by the rifle proper. There are other options. Generally Arsenal make a really good quality rifle, but this time I think they missed the mark.

There are many ways to obtain the 5.45 rifle, getting a kit and having it built is one way, else the ORF rifle perhaps. Shy away from the 5.45 rifles built on ITM receivers, as they often won't work.

Be sure to have the scope rail installed during the build. It is a great accessory.

I don't know why some people discount the 545 round. It is a great round, and inexpensive right now. I chrono'd some Russian 7N6 out of my 16 inch barreled AK right a 3250fps. That's zinging right along and is every bit as good as a 223 out of a 20" barrel. The bullet penetrates wood better than the 223. And when it hits a coyote, they drop right there. With the Kobra red dot on mine out to 300 yards coke cans are not safe, so it is every bit as accurate as I would care for in a platform like this.

I would not feel underarmed with a 5.45 AK. And it is good for plinking too.
 
The problem with really good AK's is that they cost well over $1,000. The other stuff is wanna-be's. Even though I voted for the AK I think an AR is more realistic!
 
Buy an AK in 7.62 or an AR in 5.56.

5.45 is currently cheap and available. Note the word "currently." It's wounding potential has been exaggerated. Read Fackler's findings on the so called "tumbling," "poision bullet".

Also, there is no such thing as cheap ammo, but there are very nice .22 conversion kits for ARs.
 
Another vote for a Saiga conversion in .223. I love mine. Correia on the forum here sells Tromix Saigas and unconverted Saigas.
 
There's nothing wrong with the Arsenal SLR-106FR, they had some teething issues on early models and mags. That has been fixed, you don't even hear of issues with newer CR and UR models. Mine's been 100% with gen 2 black and clear waffles. You will always be able to find .223 and it's easy to reload. Saigas are a good cheaper option. However, if you start to add the features the 106 has to the Saiga, the Arsenal will be the better/cheaper buy.

That said 5.45 is inexpensive right now so you get more bang for your buck. I got a really good deal on a SAR-2 with mags and ammo, I really like it. I have a friend who picked up a WASR-2 and it's been great too.

Easiest thing is too get both.
 
hokkmike said:
The problem with really good AK's is that they cost well over $1,000.
Click to expand...
There's no such thing as a "good, better, best" AK. It's all marketing and personal opinion.

They all go bang.
 
The problem I have with the 5.45x39 is that no one in THIS country makes it. Yes surplus is cheap NOW. But what happens later?

If it was me I would get the 7.62x39 AK clone of your choice. If your mind is set on a mouse round then get a 223 in and AR clone.
 
O.S.O.K. is that Tantal the same as the Lancaster and Interarms WZ-88 Tantal I see on various websites? Pics look the same.

BTW, newb question - what makes a Tantal a Tantal? Are all AK-74s Tantals? Or is it the name of the Polish 74?

The Saiga is intriguing. So they're cheap, reliable, and Russian made? Is the main difference between a Saiga and traditional looking AK the sporter look to it? Much better than a Mini-14 I surmise.
 
Much, much better than a mini-14. They are made by the same factories that make Russia's military arms. They are true-blue Russian semi-automatic AKs.
 
You just cant go wrong with either a tantal, or a bulgarian built. my edge goes to the tantal. if you want something more "orriginal" go with a bulgarian 74 build, i like the doubble strut "full stock" sidefolders.
 
Dollar An Hour said:
BTW, newb question - what makes a Tantal a Tantal? Are all AK-74s Tantals? Or is it the name of the Polish 74?
Click to expand...
The Poles did away with the safe-semi-full selector switch, and went to a safe-fire selector and a left side selector for semi-3rd burst-full auto. They have followed this design in their subsequent rifles.

tantal_648.jpg

The Tantal also uses a combination flash hider / grenade launcher on the muzzle.

DSCF2670.jpg
 
Is the Saiga basically an AK dressed up like a sporter then? Is it designed ground-up to work with .223?

I know a lot of folks discredit AK's chambered in calibers other than 5.45 or 7.62? Is the Saiga a different animal than other .223 AK's?

I'm waiting to hear back from Correia, as I'd like to learn more about the Saiga. Still leaning toward the Tantal though.

Thanks guys for the help!
 
I am of two minds. I have a Tantal build and a Tromix Saiga. I haven't yet played with either at long range. The Tantal did not come with a scope mount. Both will do the job and are fun to shoot. The Tantal is great looking and in good shape, and is very reliable. The Saiga doesn't look real traditional, but Tromix did a beautiful job on the fit and finish. It looks as good as it works.

My Tantal prefers the bakelite mags. The plastic coated Bulgarian mags are normally a little too thick for the magwell.
The Saiga works perfectly with the polymer Bulgarian mags sold by Kvar.
These days, the mag prices are about equal though the bakelite mags used to be cheaper.

If you reload, you might prefer the .223 even though it is expensive right now. If you don't, the 5.45 surplus is cheap now and Wolf and others import it as well. Just make sure you buy at least a few thousand rounds of 5.45 and save one case for emergencies.

Last, remember that all of the surplus 5.45 is corrosive. My WASR 2 has some rust in the gas tube since I didn't clean it well enough.
 
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