As Permit Holders Don;t We Also Bear Some Responsibility To Know The Law

[Trunk Monkey]

Not sure if this is an appropriate topic for this forum, If not please move.

This is not intended to be a thread about whether or not you should inform

In many threads I’ve read about informing the officer that you have a permit the complaint is made that the officer didn’t know the law. I imagine this is frequently true but don’t we as permit holders bear at least some responsibility to be fairly conversant w/ our states laws governing permits, open carry and use of deadly force?

The very first time I got pulled over after getting my permit the officer asked if I had any weapons in the vehicle and got all bug eyed on me when I handed him my permit. He went off on me and told me I was required to inform him immediately.

He was wrong, he was dead wrong and I knew it before he ever stepped out of his car. CRS 18-12-204 states that I must have my permit and a valid ID at all times when I am carrying a concealed weapon and that I must surrender them on demand of a law enforcement officer. It also states that I may carry a weapon in my vehicle or other private means of conveyance and it shall not be considered concealed.

That took me all of 10 minutes to find on the find a law website.

Again, if you are going to carry a gun doesn’t some of the responsibility to know your local laws fall on you?

 

[billdeserthills]

Seems like I have been hearing all my life that ignorance of the law is no excuse, even though no police, lawyer, prosecutor or judge could possibly know every law

 

[glove]

Yes you should know the law where you carry. A when you travel also.

 

[Deanimator]

A LARGE percentage of LEOs either don't know or don't care about firearms and carry law.

The other night I was stopped for a POSSIBLE trivial traffic infraction (which might not have even been an infraction) and the cop seemed to think that I should notify him when NOT carrying.

It's called "LAW enforcement" not "WHIM enforcement". The actual notification requirement in Ohio is bad enough and has been repeatedly abused by cops. The idea that I need to EXTRA-LEGALLY notify that I'm NOT carrying is errant nonsense and anyone would be a fool to do it. It just turns the whim of a cop into an EXPECTATION.

My expectation (backed up by experience and observation) is that cops WON'T know the law. That's why I make CERTAIN that I DO. They seem to have a perception that they don't NEED to know the law and that they have nothing to lose by NOT knowing it. Sometimes they get burned by their willful ignorance, but they often wear it like a badge of honor anyway.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Again, if you are going to carry a gun doesn’t some of the responsibility to know your local laws fall on you?

Of course. But the burden should fall equally on those who enforce it.

 

[Deanimator]

Of course. But the burden should fall equally on those who enforce it.

I'm always nauseated when somebody (cop or fanboy) says, "There are too many laws for the police to know!"

Ok, then that means there are too many for them to ENFORCE.

If you don't know the "law" you're "enforcing"... or whether it's even a law AT ALL, you're not a "law enforcement officer", merely a bully with a gun.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Of course. But the burden should fall equally on those who enforce it.

They're not going to jail when you get it wrong, you are

 

[Deanimator]

They're not going to jail when you get it wrong, you are

99% of the time they're not going to jail when THEY get it wrong... even when they KILL somebody.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

A LARGE percentage of LEOs either don't know or don't care about firearms and carry law.

And you can't do a damn thing about that.

You can ,howerver, take the time to become familiar with your state and local laws WRT to carrying a firearm.

I've seen your name on usacarry.com before, so I know you've seen the threads in which a gun owner asks 'Is my permit legal in XYZ?" and he/she has handgunlaw.us right there on the same screen but can't be bothered to look it up themselves.

Do you not think that that person is abdicating their responsibility as a firearms owner?

 

[Manson]

It seems a lot of things are coming up that are moving away from the question. To the OP. You are correct. As a CCW holder you agree to abide by the law. Therefore it is your responsibility to know them. What this means is if an LEO isn't familiar with the law you will be able to get it sorted out. This doesn't mean you debate it at length with the officer. But if need be you will be in a position to educate him later. I word to the chief will have a very firm educational effect.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I am unsure what your point is. If I understand this correctly ...

The very first time I got pulled over after getting my permit the officer asked if I had any weapons in the vehicle and got all bug eyed on me when I handed him my permit. He went off on me and told me I was required to inform him immediately.

He was wrong, he was dead wrong and I knew it before he ever stepped out of his car. CRS 18-12-204 states that I must have my permit and a valid ID at all times when I am carrying a concealed weapon and that I must surrender them on demand of a law enforcement officer. It also states that I may carry a weapon in my vehicle or other private means of conveyance and it shall not be considered concealed.

... you knew the law, therefore your responsibility was fulfilled.

 

[Deanimator]

And you can't do a damn thing about that.

You can ,howerver, take the time to become familiar with your state and local laws WRT to carrying a firearm.

I've seen your name on usacarry.com before, so I know you've seen the threads in which a gun owner asks 'Is my permit legal in XYZ?" and he/she has handgunlaw.us right there on the same screen but can't be bothered to look it up themselves.

Do you not think that that person is abdicating their responsibility as a firearms owner?

Actually, I've said that citizens must know the law PRECISELY because of the chronic ignorance (and apathy toward it) of the law by cops.

That being said, if I had to bet on somebody knowing immediately applicable firearms law in a situation, a citizen versus a cop, my money would be on the citizen. Most of us seem to know that the system won't cover for or make excuses for us if we don't.

Contrast this with the "you can beat the rap but not the ride" sentiment repeatedly expressed by police in online forums. They seem not to CARE what the law is or whether they violate it.

 

[rtroha]

if you are going to carry a gun doesn’t some of the responsibility to know your local laws fall on you?

Yes, but reading up on gun laws is "boring". They'd rather zone out in front of the tube.

 

[MedWheeler]

As a former LEO myself, I will be the first to admit the street cops cannot be depended upon to know the laws (all of them.) However, having been a staunch 2A-supporter even before a cop, I made sure I did. I feel that, in my jurisdiction, I still do.

 

[drizzico]

When we take up a weapon for defense of our love ones and ourselves we have a duty to know the laws. Not just of where we live but where we are traveling to. Just think of the two or three recent cases of good honest citizens from out of New York state that were carrying in the NYC and when they saw the No guns sign went an asked where they could safely store the weapon. If they had taken the time to research the laws of NY and NYC they would not have been carrying and would not now be facing several years in Jail.

We seen several comments in this thread and others that state and I'm paraphrasing (and combining) for simplicity that "Because there are so many laws out there no police officer can know them all or because they that they are just plain to lazy to learn them." Well let me ask those of you have made a comment similar to this at one time or another. Do you even know ALL the laws associated with Carrying a weapon in your own state. In NC one Lawyer took it upon himself to write a book on the laws in this state with case law examples. It was over 300 pages.... Think of what it would be like in a non-gun friendly state (and yes I don't think NC is a true gun friendly state but it is moving in the right direction...)

So my heart goes out to all policeman everywhere they are in a no win situation. They are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. They get dammed by association because of the actions of a few. It would be interesting to know the total number of cops in the United States (At all levels local, state and federal) and the total number of police officers who have had complaints logged against them that were proven sufficiently to warrant disciplinary action. Want to guess at the percentage that would be. My guess it would be under 1%. But because of that 1% people look at all cops though that filter.

So if you think the police are doing a difficult job and deserve some credit the next time you run into one in a store tell him thanks and buy him a coffee.

Dave
(I've never been a police officer but I appreciate that they are doing a difficult job for very little thanks...)

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I wish this forum had "likes"

 

[Ford Prefect]

You have NO requirement to know any laws regarding firearms, carry, use; local or federal. None.
Should you be caught breaking any of those possible laws, the only person who will suffer for it will be you. So it kind of pays to know and try to follow the law.

 

[henschman]

I don't think I would call it a "responsibility," but you can potentially suffer some serious harm if you do not know the laws on this subject. It is definitely important to know the laws, as well as the limits of the cops' ability to effectively enforce them, if you intend to live as a free individual in this society of ours.