Assess this recent in-the-news defensive shooting incident (Houston)

[chicharrones]

From a strategy perspective the first shooting action was clear. The rest to me seems driven by the anger both at having to shoot at all, plus finding out the perp was using a look alike gun.

As to what course an armed robber will take after taking the money only speculation can take place. He could kill to eliminate witnesses.

I thought of that probability the first time I saw the entire unedited video. Easy for me to understand, whether wrong or right.

 

[Blue Jays]

Lawyers may assert the hero opted to "close the distance" towards the robber to significantly reduce the opportunity for misses and/or ricochets in the event follow-up shots were mandated. Given the poor audio we may also learn the robber was continuing to threaten violence that we simply cannot hear.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Then again, this robber murdered a previous victim and wasn't even prosecuted for it... .

 

[chicharrones]

Then again, this robber murdered a previous victim and wasn't even prosecuted for it... .

Yep. And that information wouldn't even be admissible in court if this event were to go to trial.

 

[old lady new shooter]

First off, when he shot the armed robber in the head after he was down he was no longer defending anyone.

It doesn’t matter if he was unconscious or playing possum. The threat was over when the shooter fired the last shot. The issue is not if he could be a threat, the issue is WAS he a threat when the last shot was fired. Please tell us what the armed robber was doing at the time the last shot was fired that made him a threat.

I already stated upthread that IMO the final shot was improper. My question was more general, how do you know if a BG you shot is really unconscious?

 

[old lady new shooter]

You missed the point! My point is not the terror that this perp brings to this eating place, nor is my focus on why he was shot because it's completely understandable. What I'm trying to tell you is, place yourself in the perp's shoes. By that I mean he's gotten the money that he demanded so what more can he do other than leave? You tell me, what more would a perp, that has the money, do other than leave?

This guy was not rational in the first place. How much money could he have expected to get from a few customers in a taqueria? This was Texas, for that amount he would risk encountering an armed defender? Especially knowing his own "gun" would provide no defense?

 

[old lady new shooter]

It is a great example of what not to do,

His initial actions were very good IMO. Would have been better without having to fumble around for his weapon.

 

[old lady new shooter]

If you have been training, this is exactly why you do not approach the person. You get out of there, you take cover while covering the person from a distance. So he's playing possum, so go in to kill him for sure?

Not good as a practical thought process.

Yes, when this question came up once before Jeff said that. In videos one can often see a LEO go over to the downed BG and kick the gun away but for a civilian not a Good Idea.

As noted a moment ago, my question was more general, is there a way to know for sure that a BG you just shot is reallly unconscious? Even more difficult from a distance. So you just stand behind whatever at least concealment you can find (actual cover is rare to find) and keep covering him until the police arrive?

 

[Kleanbore]

My question was more general, how do you know if a BG you shot is really unconscious?

You may or may not be able to tell. Just don't get close to him.

This guy was not rational in the first place.

Nothing about the robber matters except that he committed a robbery.

His initial actions were very good IMO.

They were surely lawful, but they were not at all prudent. He fired at the robber when there was another customer sitting directly on the other side of the target.

Always think backstop before firing.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Yep. And that information wouldn't even be admissible in court if this event were to go to trial.

 

[old lady new shooter]

You may or may not be able to tell. Just don't get close to him.
Nothing about the robber matters except that he committed a robbery.
They were surely lawful, but they were not at all prudent. He fired at the robber when there was another customer sitting directly on the other side of the target.

Always think backstop before firing.

The other customer was behind the target, but not directly behind.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Branca's guest expert, a criminal defense attorney, pointed out that there is the legal case and there is the "feelings" case (I think he may have called it something else, but that was the gist), and in the latter the defender gets a big sympathy boost for having taken the stolen money off the robber and returning it to the other patrons.

The anchoring shot was "instinct" and "this man is a hero". Public opinion might be the deciding factor here.................

And public opinion and the "feelings case" both have been largely formed, at least initially, based on the version of the video from the TV news (that ends just before the defender fires his first round).

Later facts might change some folks' opinions. As in this discussion. We all understand that video is always incomplete. And that careful editing can change the final mass perception.

But an initial impression can be challenging to change.

 

[jmorris]

I should hope that no statement has been given by anyone other than a defense attorney, and such statements are usually framed in general terms such as as "my client believed...".

Sorry, didn’t put the links in earlier, it already happened. Why I said it’s probably in his favor that he had a couple days worth of council in what to say and how to say it.

Investigators said the 46-year-old customer, who police have not identified because he's not under arrest, turned himself in and is cooperating with detectives.

https://abc13.com/houston-taqueria-...ene-washington-killed-suspect-death/12681554/

The 46-year-old customer was questioned by Houston police homicide detectives on Monday, the Houston Police Department said in a statement.

"After consulting with the Harris County District Attorney’s Office, it was determined the shooting will be referred to a grand jury," the statement reads. "Since the male is not arrested or charged, his identity is not being released."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/customer-...taqueria-wanted-questioning/story?id=96294463

 

[Kleanbore]

The other customer was behind the target, but not directly behind.

At what instant? As in Post #120? Wasn't the tearget moving? did the shooter even consider the danger? No--that is not "very good" defensive shooting.

In my one and only store robbery incident, the first thing I did was move to enable safe shooting. It was after that that Kathy Jackson related an experience and said that her first thought was "backstop".

But an initial impression can be challenging to change.

George Soros has done that quite effectively on more than one occasion.

And if there is a trial, it will be some time down the road.

 

[old lady new shooter]

did the shooter even consider the danger?

You don't know what he considered.

The fact that he used two hands to shoot and took careful aim would seem to indicate he was aware that the patron in the corner could be in danger if he wasn't accurate. And happily the patron in the corner was not hit.

 

[Kleanbore]

You don't know what he considered.

It is evident that he did not consider what was behind the target. Rule 4. No prudent person would have fired from that position.

The fact that he used two hands to shoot and took careful aim would seem to indicate he was aware that the patron in the corner could be in danger if he wasn't accurate.

Not to me--not at all. He was concentrating on hitting his target. Bullets change trajectory after going through things.

And happily the patron in the corner was not hit.

Luck.

I do not want anyone opening up like that around me.

 

[chicharrones]

I understand that.

Being a juror in a felony criminal trial can be a gut wrenching experience.

 

[luzyfuerza]

And if there is a trial, it will be some time down the road.

True.

But the Grand Jury review will likely be relatively soon.

And members of Grand Juries aren't sequestered, nor are they generally instructed to only consider evidence that prosecutors present. They are independent of the court system, and are empowered to independently investigate, and seek out evidence.

Unlike trial juries.

As members of the public, who are empanelled to independently determine whether sufficient probable cause exists for a case to proceed, their initial perceptions will matter, too.

 

[rabid wombat]

A tangent, but same location….

“Just five days after a deadly shooting inside a southwest Houston taqueria, another incident happened, but this time surveillance video shows it was a break-in.”

https://abc13.com/houston-taqueria-...-el-ranchito-customer-shoots-robber/12685408/

 

[old lady new shooter]

A tangent, but same location….

“Just five days after a deadly shooting inside a southwest Houston taqueria, another incident happened, but this time surveillance video shows it was a break-in.”

https://abc13.com/houston-taqueria-...-el-ranchito-customer-shoots-robber/12685408/

Oh, that poor store owner!!!

 

[rabid wombat]

From Branca via Legal insurrection…

“Another interesting argument that could be made with respect to the otherwise unjustifiable ninth shot to the robber’s head is that it was not an intentional act—perhaps while arising from having picked up the robber’s “pistol” the shooter tightened his grip on his own gun and unintentionally depressed the trigger, unintentionally firing that ninth round into the robber’s skull.”

https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/...lly-justified-killing-or-simply-an-execution/

 

[Kleanbore]

From Branca via Legal insurrection…

“Another interesting argument that could be made with respect to the otherwise unjustifiable ninth shot to the robber’s head is that it was not an intentional act—perhaps while arising from having picked up the robber’s “pistol” the shooter tightened his grip on his own gun and unintentionally depressed the trigger, unintentionally firing that ninth round into the robber’s skull.”

https://legalinsurrection.com/2023/...lly-justified-killing-or-simply-an-execution/

Yes. Criminal, but not premeditated murder.

 

[CapnMac]

It's clear that there was clearly a lot of stress all around.

The armed patron was probably in full-on foveal vision and tachypyschia, and could not have seen anythign but the robber, like as not.

"We" are being as guilty as any others in assuming all of the shots connected.

"How can you miss at that distance!?" Pumped full of adrenaline all the colors greyed down, everything seeming to be slow-motion, these are not the sort of conditions people feel at the range. Until the autopsy results are published, it's entirely possible the patron missed with any number of the shots. (It's good to go back to the original media coverage and see the still images of holes shot through the safety glass of the taqueria.)

But, what's even more likely is that the patron could not perceive any response to his gun shots (very likely given how often h'wood depicts "instant stops" from pistol shots).

We really don't know yet what we don't know now.

There is a good S&T point in that the patron had never considered any other exit than the one, front door, too. Situation awareness include knowing other potential exgress/egress points. That, and it took the patron so long to unholster/unpocket the pistol he almost missed the entire incident.

 

[rabid wombat]

The armed patron was probably in full-on foveal vision and tachypyschia, and could not have seen anythign

Yeppers…audio exclusion, tunnel vision, target lock (probably), fine motor skills go to pot, all sorts of entertainment when the adrenal glands let go….

 

[The Night Rider]

Then again, this robber murdered a previous victim and wasn't even prosecuted for it... .

Odds are he won't be prosecuted for it now either