Atf open letter on the redesign of “stabilizing braces”

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"Personally, I am surprised that the ATF didn't just outlaw their possession without a tax stamp and be done with it."


^^ We have a Winner.

This is exactly what the BATFE *should* do, in my humble opion



"The whole thing is just an issue of buyers and sellers wanting to put one over on "the man" with a nod and wink."

I'm surprised they were not deemed to be contraband in their entirety.


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On what grounds do you think they have that authority?

Suppose someone wants to use it on a full length rifle.

The brace is not a firearm therefore the ATF has NO authority to regulate its possession, only the firearm to which it is attached.

You are letting predjudices cloud your reasoning.
 
This is really no different than the atkins accelerator. The ATF realized that they got outsmarted and then they were all like hey thats a machine gun! It is sad that they have done this when there are people who truly do benefit from the brace as designed.
 
"Personally, I am surprised that the ATF didn't just outlaw their possession without a tax stamp and be done with it."


^^ We have a Winner.

This is exactly what the BATFE *should* do, in my humble opinion.

Wrong. The brace itself could never, should never, will never be an NFA-regulated item of any sort. Sorry, it's at worst a buttstock, same as any other. The ATF should have just sent out a PR bomb over a few months saying that attaching the brace to a pistol will be grounds for it to be confiscated (and the owner possibly prosecuted) as a short barrel rifle. A few months of letting word get out, and there would be as few people putting braces on pistols, same as there are people putting Magpul stocks on pistols illegally.

In fact, this dubious latest decision may be the ground work for exactly that;

1-Accidentally rule the brace is not a stock out of incompetence (Hanlon's Razor)
1.5-Individual agents issue rulings based on Bureau precedent in keeping with #1, stating that use of the brace on the shoulder cannot be regulated
2-Ignore the oversight until it becomes a glaring example of said incompetence (more Hanlon's Razor)
3-Come up with a way to rectify the oversight in a way that reflects as little blame on the Bureau as possible (politics)
4-Use the tried-and-true tactic of assigning rules to "intent," which the ATF then has pretty much full reign to define/prosecute until such time a court reverses them ("intent" of using the brace as a stock when attaching it becomes prosecutable)
5-The users thus "primed" for additional ATF statements on the SIG brace, muddy the waters for potential/current users further with a grandiose and unenforceable proclamation before a large media event feature them.
6-Wait for sales, use, and interest in the brace to collapse, and the companies making them to voluntarily cease production due to lack of profits (and hope they can hold off inevitable lawsuits long enough for that to happen)
7-Once the manufacturers of the braces cease production, there is no organized party to file suit in court, and the ATF can make their final announcement with little opposition or acrimony;
8-Declare the brace a stock, and contraband to attach to a firearm or other non-long-gun. Publicize a few prosecutions/confiscations to show they're serious, and the few remaining holdouts will fall in line, utterly unable to oppose the move without risking life, liberty, and property.

Skipping steps 3 through 7 would be clearer for everyone trying to obey the law, and better in the long run for all involved, but the extra steps cushion the impact of the Bureau admitting it made a terrible mistake (and implicitly admitting that even they can't make sense of the NFA when it comes to SBRs). The muddying of legal statuses also makes it harder for the affected parties (us and SIG) to claim standing in court, compared to if the ATF simply ordered SIG to stop manufacturing the braces, or an assortment of companies to completely re-jigger their marketing strategy at the stroke of a pen. The 'scenic route' described above lets the manufacturers continue production "unimpeded" so they are less likely to convince a judge of standing/damages.

TCB
 
"On what grounds do you think they have that authority?Suppose someone wants to use it on a full length rifle?."

and

"Wrong. The brace itself could never, should never, will never be an NFA-regulated item of any sort. Sorry, it's at worst a buttstock, same as any other."

Both of what you write is quite true, and of course I simplified the message as I figured we all knew that we were discussing their use on pistols, but obviously my intent was not transmitted well by what I wrote. So let me clarify things: They are (and ought to be) in the same category as short barrels, full auto M-16 parts, and any other thing we can imagine. I have a nice Uzi parts set waiting for me to build a SBR out of when I get around to it, and I "get it". These accessories are and should bel lawful unless posessed or used in a manner manifestly illegal. We all "get" constructive posession, etc. The use of these on pistols is something that the BATFE would be well within their rights to require a Form 1 for building a SBR. I am very surprised that they have not "clarified" their earlier error and so determined this to be the case.


Personally, I am *all* about prodding the BATFE towards relaxing things. I however can read, and see, and understand the intent of the law *as written* describing a SBR, and folks... adding one of these to your pistol something that could be described with ease as building a SBR with a Form 1 required. We all know it.



Willie

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"On what grounds do you think they have that authority?Suppose someone wants to use it on a full length rifle?."

and

"Wrong. The brace itself could never, should never, will never be an NFA-regulated item of any sort. Sorry, it's at worst a buttstock, same as any other."



^^^^^

As mentioned before, they deemed a SHOE STRING to be a machine gun; Then confirmed it again about 8 yrs later.


Lets not forget reality in favor of beating on Willie.
 
I believe they "clarified" once again (man, they "clarify" the same thing more than a sewage treatment plant :D) and said the shoelace was not considered "intent" for the purposes of prosecution unless attached to the firearm the bad (read: probably fun) way. Simply too many common legal uses for a shoelace (Boresnake, anyone?) to deem its mere proximity to a firearm as "intent" in the courtroom (not to say that it couldn't figure in among other evidence, but the lace itself was no longer sufficient proof unless affixed to the gun). There were some folks who registered their shoelaces, though, but mostly to say they could :p

What I meant about the SIG brace and NFA is what I said; they could at worst call it a stock and make all users submit Form 1's (or an amnesty registering their pistols as SBRs) to continue using it on the pistols. Nothing they could say would make a SIG brace itself an SBR, nor illegal in any way if attached to a rifle*

TCB

*Remember, a rifle with the buttstock removed becomes a "firearm" configuration momentarily, but is still legally treated as a "rifle," and I don't think I've ever heard of any arguments about the legality of changing furniture. It does make you wonder if this another area 'deserving clarity' with the result a pistol becomes a rifle, then stays one forever more (and you can't ever replace an AK stock ;)). I think this same logic underpinned the vertical grip/pistol/AOW case argument involving a grip added to a pistol that was not manufactured with one; still not recognized by the ATF, but the defendant did win that particular case in the end.
 
The ATF has long flirted with a use standard.
SBS and SBR law is specific about 26" OAL. AOW law just says concealable. The ATF has decided to read the two in harmony and say >26" means non concealable.

There have been a series of letters about things that would be AOWs if it were not for the fact that they were over 26" in length and the BATF always included use language like:
. . . not be subject to the NFA/AOW classification provided its overall length is at least 26 inches and it is not actually concealed on the person.

There has always been a threat that your long AR pistol with a forward vertical grip or one of those 14.5" barrel PGO shotguns goes from "Firearm" to "AOW" if you slip it under a coat (or put it in your car???).

I hope SIG peruses this because the question of whether a customer's use of a firearm need court clarification just as constructive possession needed in the past. Considering how SIG has been selling guns with SB15s like hotcakes, I suspect they will put up a legal fight.

Mike
 
The ATF further muddies the water: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/01/foghorn/atf-change-minds-brace-people-kept-sending-letters/

Aside from speculation that closed a different thread, it's very much the same as the IRS telling you that you can/can't take a certain exemption or claim a specific type of deduction. Single agents in the field answering questions are not the source of the letter and are hearing in-house rumor, innuendo, and gossip about the situation.

If it's not from the office of the guy who signed the letter, it's hearsay and unreliable. Like reading a post that SIG has filed a lawsuit, which at this present moment would be difficult - it's the weekend and the appropriate offices won't be open until tomorrow.

Be careful what you repeat - like the school childs game of pass the rumor, what started out as "Johnny gave Jane his pencil" may be horribly and even maliciously changed to benefit the speaker. People like to make things notorious and enhance their image - often at the cost of their reputation.

The statement of the agent who was interviewed in the link posted sounds almost exactly like a synopsis of the AR pistol community's stance on the issue. Nearly letter perfect - and that should be a big red flag right there. Speculating why won't do any good, either, simply because we should be looking to facts.

Not repeating misinformation, like, "SIG filed suit." No, they haven't. Yet.

Let's try to deal with facts one at a time, so far, the fact is that the ATF announced the new policy at the last minute on Friday - a political bomb - just before the premier national gun sales convention which is full of new models sporting braces.

Their intent should be obvious, they are trying to spike the game and dominate. It's their job, too. Whether their view stands remains to be seen.
 
Lest anyone forget, the ATF also recently asserted authority over how you use your own machine tools (you can't lend or borrow for a commercial use [as defined by ATF also]) to build firearms, specifically recievers. Ostensibly because you can't build something if you don't own the tools outright. :confused: It seems they are seeking to take this newfound "use regulation" authority and run with it.

TCB
 
Lest anyone forget, the ATF also recently asserted authority over how you use your own machine tools (you can't lend or borrow for a commercial use [as defined by ATF also]) to build firearms, specifically recievers. Ostensibly because you can't build something if you don't own the tools outright. :confused: It seems they are seeking to take this newfound "use regulation" authority and run with it.

TCB
That isn't exactly accurate. They didn't rule on how you may use your own machine tools, they ruled on how others may use them.

You may use your own tools to complete as many unserialized firearms as you like. You just can't let other people use them to do so.
 
I get the feeling I am about to be made a criminal even though I haven't had So much as a speeding ticket in the past 30 years.
 
Judging by SHOT, I'd say the Brace is still going strong.

EVO%20with%20SIG%20Brace_zpsfz9vnnlp.jpg

The SIg booth had a LOT of Brace wearing pistols. CZ also had these two, and these worked great as cheek rests. No idea how they would be under recoil, but would love to try one out.

A%20pair%20to%20draw%20to%202_zpsby2echju.jpg
 
A post elsewhere on the net showed as many as a dozen new models sporting braces.

The ATF is well aware of them all.

I'm looking forward to the Hitler video parody of him being told the ATF outlawed braces. :rolleyes:
 
In the real world we now have other considerations. Discussing and picturing misuse of the Brace that redesigns it's purpose is now considered advocating criminal activity on a larger AR forum.

We are rapidly approaching the chilling effect the ATF desired - the community of shooters are responding to claims of liability and lack of insuredness for advocating free speech and are now acting as agents of the ATF.

And some people still think corporations don't exert pressure to rob us of our Rights. Let's not forget there is a reported instance of a non brace user of a pistol being escorted from a private range by direction of an RO who insisted the way he was shooting it was "illegal."

We have seen the enemy and he is us.
 
Yep.

One of my favorite YouTube channels pulled all his videos off where he had used, discussed, reviewed, etc. the Sig brace. Very insightful guy and quality video reviews. But he pulled them all and are no longer found.
 
The interesting part would be to know if he did it voluntarily, or was instructed to do so, and by whom?
 
The interesting part would be to know if he did it voluntarily, or was instructed to do so, and by whom?

After reading that letter, I'd say anyone with two brain cells to rub together would pull any videos that they still had control over.

Sure, maybe he asked his lawyer first, but would you really NEED to?




(If you're suggesting that the ATF called him and told him to...nope. They already published the letter, that's all they need to do.)
 
Rob Pincus still has his up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLuZL9-u8NA

About 5:40.

Not everybody agrees this constitutes criminal activity or needs to be taken down off the net. Videos are still up and vendors are still selling braces.

There are more than a few brain cells being rubbed together, the shooting community is not in agreement that supporting the worst case interpretation of the letter is the best case answer.
 
Not everybody. Just the guys who can haul you to jail for it.

Of course not everyone agrees. People are ... just people.
 
One of my favorite YouTube channels pulled all his videos off where he had used, discussed, reviewed, etc. the Sig brace. Very insightful guy and quality video reviews. But he pulled them all and are no longer found.

Was it HOSSUSMC or USMC HOSS? I watched one of his videos and it was just a 5 min screw you to the ATF. he must of mentioned 30 times how he "skirted" "avoided" and "worked around" NFA and SBR rules. He mocked the ATF and their rules repeatedly. And clowns like this are the reason the NFA has reversed their opinion.
 
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