ATF rule change on powder

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unlimited4x4

unlimited4x4

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Like the article said, this will wipe out the military ammo supply as well, talk about un-intended consquences, lol.

More liberal, knee jerk stupidity.
 
Sounds like this has the potential to cause chaos for he ammo manufacturers... or not. Depends on what the ATF does. If they say, "Oops, we overlooked the fact that having to re-engineer your supply chain overnight would be impossible - 6 month grace period for everyone to comply," should be some grumbling about cost (which will get passed on to the consumer) and that will be the end of it. OTOH if ATF says, "tough bazookas, comply immediately or face the consequences," we can expect a mess on the supply end.
 
Hmmm. Doesn't nitrocellulose normally have a nitrogen content of less than 12%? How many double based powders will this effect?
 
mboylan said:
Hmmm. Doesn't nitrocellulose normally have a nitrogen content of less than 12%? How many double based powders will this effect?
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I don't think it affects powder directly regardless of their nitrogen content, but supplies going to powder manufacturers. If I understand correctly, wetted nitrocellulose is transported to the powder manufacturers since it's a much safer way to transport it than dry nitrocellulose. I might have it wrong, but that's what I've picked up through the little bit of research I've done since I read about it a couple of hours ago.

Matt
 
Ammoland is betting that no one will bother to vet their trash.

The BATFE was asked for clarification. From the BATFE:

ATF was recently asked about the status of nitrocellulose under the Federal explosives laws and regulations. “Nitrocellulose explosive” is on ATF’s List of Explosive Materials. ATF has determined that nitrocellulose containing greater than 12.6 percent nitrogen is a high explosive under 27 CFR, Part 555 (nitrocellulose containing 12.6 percent or less nitrogen is generally not an explosive material under Part 555). Therefore, it must be stored in a type 1 or type 2 magazine. We are aware that the U.S. Department of Transportation may assign a nonexplosive classification to nitrocellulose when it has been wetted with water or alcohol. This is based, in part, on the diminished likelihood of explosion in a transportation accident. Because the nitrocellulose retains its explosive characteristics when the water or alcohol is removed, the wetted nitrocellulose remains a nitrocellulose explosive, subject to the licensing, safety and security requirements of the Federal explosives regulations. However, based upon the diminished likelihood of wetted nitrocellulose exploding, ATF will consider variance requests to store the wetted material under an alternative arrangement.
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https://www.atf.gov/file/106536/download

BTW: Nitrocellulose is also called guncotton. Two of my friends were burned to death when they laid out wetted guncotton prior to burning. In order to speed up the drying process they raked it, causing a conflagration that cost their lives.
 
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There was an explosion last week involving the transportation of the propellant used in airbags, specifically ammonium nitrate. The truck transporting it was under contract to Takata, the manufacturer under fire for so many airbag incidents.

Although they are not the same chemicals, I wonder if the ATF is just doing CYA on all explosives.

Here's an article about the airbag ingredient explosion: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/30/b...a-factory-detonates-en-route.html?src=me&_r=0
 
Speedo, I don't know for sure. But I don't think ATF has anything to do with those airbag propellants. NHTSA and DOT and maybe ICC would have that authority.
 
This seems to be specific to nitrocellulose, ie gun cotton, and how to handle it in large quantities. That doesn't include finished products containing the material which may be exempt.

Who manufactures, stores, and ships that in bulk? I'm going to suggest that as a component of ammo manufacture the makers only keep in stock what they need for immediate production. The process is called "Just In Time" and doing that not only reduces the cost of storage it minimizes the amount on hand for further processing.

Nitrocellulose isn't just an ammo component, it was the main ingredient in early film - and there were theatre disasters created when the reels caught fire. Those early films degraded quickly and as a result the loss of some has now reduced the inventory of what was filmed early on. It's also a paint used on musical instruments, cars, a glue for staples in staplers, and a component of ping pong balls. While not in vogue as much in the materials industry it's still out there in use (source Wikipedia.)

Since it's been a serious problem in use since the 1800's - early synthetic billiard balls made from it were sometimes explosive - it's a well known problem in the ammo and plastics industry. If we want to gauge the impact this might have it would do well to search across the board to see who else is affected. Like, women's finger nail polish.

Ok - tin foil hat back on - it's a dirty underhanded trick meant to keep us from having ammo. Of course, they could have just waited until AFTER the election instead of burying it in a newsletter published last June. And that is what makes me think it's just a procedural issue for the ATF - poor timing if political implications were really involved and even less if they were trying to keep another Congressional inquiry off their to do list.
 
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I saw last night on another board that the letter was "in error" and that it will be business as usual in the powder business. We shall see if that is so.

Any road, there are only two manufacturers of smokeless powder in the USA and surely they handle nitrocellulose properly.

Also, the redesignation applied only to nitrocellulose containing more than 12.6% nitrogen. A powder MSDS I recently looked up called for NC of 12.6% N, so that intermediate would not be affected.

I have seen an old description of powder manufacture that said the desired degree of nitration was produced by blending, so if they still do that, they are handling something stronger that could be restricted, if that regulation went through. It would still be internal to the powder mill and the end user probably would not see any change... except higher prices like our friends in the shipping business have given us with Hazmat charges.
 
There was an explosion last week involving the transportation of the propellant used in airbags, specifically ammonium nitrate. The truck transporting it was under contract to Takata, the manufacturer under fire for so many airbag incidents.
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Considering that ammonium nitrate is produced and shipped by the millions of tons for fertilizer and blasting, I suspect something else was going on for that truckload of airbag components to go off.

I had not before heard of AN in airbags, the standard in the business is or was sodium azide which is very sensitive and toxic to boot. I would have thought AN to be an improvement. Somebody really screwed up.
 
Smokeless powder is still exempt. I don't see this having a huge affect.

-Safety is no accident, unless you accidentally leave the safety on when you intend to shoot.
 
hopefully this is correct, the statement from Mr. Hodgdon towards bottom.

https://ar-15.co/threads/158199-ATF-...osive-Material

Although didn't the reasonably prudent man expect some new type of wild squirrely [ridiculous political stunt] to happen at the end of this Admin?
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This feller here certainly has. Which is why as a reasonably prudent reloader he has recently overseen the logistics necessary to establish a reasonably prudent inventory.

Regardless, it is nice to hear Mr. Hodgdon's view on the matter. Cooler, reasonably prudent heads will prevail.

:)
 
Well, nibble, nibble, nibble.

But cheer up. They can't ban flint, bat guano, and half-burnt wood. :rolleyes:

[STRIKE]But say, I thought airbags were "powered" by sodium* azide, which is also used and shipped around as a fertilizer in aqueous solutions. Could there be a mental mixup between AN fertilizer and the azide fertilizers?

Chemists: Help me out here.[/STRIKE]

ETA; Struck because I just noticed Jim Watson had commented on the azides in airbags in Post 17. But I still wonder if ammonium nitrate (AN) "fertilizer" didn't get mentally mixed up with sodium azide (NaAz) "fertilizer" in the comments. After all, "fertilizer" is a common catchword for AN.

As I understood it, NaAZ is almost a nuisance byproduct of many industrial processes, and is trucked around in a 2%(?) water solution to farmers as an easily-applied fertilizer. Just stick it in your regular pesticide application equipment.

Terry

[strike]* Or other, heavier-metal azides.[/STRIKE]
 
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Ammonia and fertilizer creates a high explosive, are they going to ban that too? That stuff took down a building in OK city 20 years ago.

I'm sure the farmers would love that move.
 
As I understood it, NaAZ is almost a nuisance byproduct of many industrial processes, and is trucked around in a 2%(?) water solution to farmers as an easily-applied fertilizer. Just stick it in your regular pesticide application equipment.
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Sodium Azide (NaN[sub]3[/sub]) has been used as a propellant in some automotive airbags, but it has fallen out of favor because of concerns that when ignited, it produced elemental sodium. The 30-some-odd million airbags produced by the Takeda corporation that are currently being recalled used Ammonium Nitrate as the propellant (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/20/business/takata-airbag-recall.html?_r=0)

I was not aware of sodium azide being used as a fertilizer. I am aware of it being used to control nematodes, but it must be handled very carefully since it is highly toxic (less than 1 gram is a lethal dose and irreversible organ damage can occur at much lower exposures).
 
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OK, thanks.



There seems to be a lot of confusion on the NaN[sub]3[/sub] matter, which, at this point, seems to be immaterial to the direct subject of this thread.

However:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2681/is-there-poison-in-auto-air-bags

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_azide

(One thing I notice over the years is that wiki articles are too easily edited. I got my information about its use as a fertilizer years ago and how it is trucked around in aqueous solutions. However, that information from wiki may have been incorrect in the first place.)

Terry
 
Info on Takata says they are using AN.

Sodium azide NaN3 has some use on soil nematode pests.
Toxic, 0.7 gram lethal to a human, as well as explosive.
 
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