Bad AD today..not me. kinda explicit.

Status
Not open for further replies.
On the whole fieldstripping thing.......

I've heard people complain about Ruger P-series guns forcing you to lock the slide back and flip the ejector down. I like that feature for the very reason this thread was started. That step alone guarantees you'll open the chamber before fieldstripping.

And nowhere in the process do you pull the trigger.
 
With the XD it's pretty hard to screw it up. Yes, you have to pull the trigger to do it, but if memory serves (and if it doesn't I'm sure someone here will correct me) the sequence is:

Drop the magazine
Lock back the slide
Turn the takedown lever
Press the slide release and ease the slide into battery
Pull the trigger to release the striker
Ease the slide off the frame.

Pretty hard to have an AD doing that. I'm not sure how the Glock differs from that as I've never field stripped a Glock.
 
The Springfield XD is the same way - makes me nervous everytime I strip it...even after checking the chamber 3847394872 times first.
I'll 2nd that! I decided against buying an XD when I discovered this. I just don't want any firearm that gets me into the habbit of pulling the trigger and not expecting a boom.

Before anyone :fire:flames:fire: me... I do check the chamber at least 12 times. I just dislike the design because I think it creates a situation where an accident is more likely to happen. YMMV. I guess I'm conditioned to expect the pulling of a trigger to be followed by a loud pop.

If you remember ALL the rules, violating one out of necessity will not result in injury.
I prefer guns that do not cause the user to violate any of the rules.

BUT... its not the gun's fault. Its the user's responsibility to train themselves to handle their choice in firearms safely. However, if he's conditioned himself to pull the trigger and have nothing happen...........
 
1911's...

I just did it. In fact, a 1911 HAS to be cocked in order to field strip it. When you move the slide back to allow the slide stop to be removed, it cocks the hammer, so you can just leave it cocked. If you don't want to, you don't have to pull the trigger after the slide is removed either. You can simply clean with the hammer cocked and then replace the slide.

Not only that.... But you can begin field striping the 1911 with the safety on.

Also, not that it advisable, but you can field strip a HK USP with a live round in the chamber. I have not tried this personally, but I have done it with a snap cap, and it is possible. Clearly this guy violated the rules, and there is no substitute for safety, but this is the thing that I don't like about striker fired pistols.
 
Unless we want to say "gun's don't kill people, people kill people, unless you are cleaning your Glock, then it's the gun's fault."

Whoa up! I never meant to imply that the gun was at fault. My point was that...since the gun was pretty much intended to be the sidearm of LEO and military...as well as the common man, which neither category is guaranteed to be gun-handling experts...it seems that it could have been a little more user-friendly.

I understand that striker-fired pistols are popular. I know that the Glock has a huge following. I've also noticed that there are a disproportionally high number of AD/ND events with these designs.

You can't design around stupid. You can, however design around a factor that multiplies stupid and make it a little less apt to result in a tragedy.
 
Robert Hairless said:
Tell us how to field strip a cocked and locked Model 1911 without ever pulling the trigger, Charles?
I think the real question should be... who the heck pulls the trigger to field strip a 1911?
 
Tell us how to field strip a cocked and locked Model 1911 without ever pulling the trigger, Charles?

Lemme flip that, WHY WOULD I activate the trigger when stripping a 1911?

----------------

I'm not going to be pedantic and carry on at length about the striker fired trigger pull.

What I am going to say is that as a designer of both hard and soft human interface operating systems, you run into *problems* whenever the meaning of activating a certain control changes, or becomes context sensitive.

One would think that when the primary meaning of activating the control is "destroy whatever the device is pointing at", one would think a couple more times before assigning it a secondary function.
 
You can field strip a 1911 without pulling the trigger. The scarier part for me is, you can't have the safety on either when removing the slide.... and the 1911s have hair triggers :p

Also, the only thing I'd like to know about this story: Where did the idiot get Rangers. I can't find them anywhere cept for shady online dealers. (Don't answer this question in this thread, no need to derail... :p)
 
Tell us how to field strip a cocked and locked Model 1911 without ever pulling the trigger, Charles?


1. Drop magazine
2. Disengage the safety.
3. Rack the slide, thereby ejecting the live round and locking back the slide.
4. Proceed to field strip your 1911.

Next question?
 
You can field strip a 1911 without pulling the trigger. The scarier part for me is, you can't have the safety on either when removing the slide.... and the 1911s have hair triggers :p

That's one of the things I like about the M&P45 w/ the safety. You can rack the slide with it engaged. And as mentioned earlier, you don't need to pull the trigger to remove the slide.
 
Beatnik said:
Why does this happen so often? It's not rocket science. You just have to not stick your hand in front of the pistol when you pull the trigger. Not to sound like I don't care that the guy blew his hand off - but what's so bloody hard about that?
i agree with that sentiment. Instead of going on and on about the "4 rules", how about just having a smidgen of common sense...?

When I pull the trigger of a gun in the house... I have made sure it was empty... and then even though I know it's empty, I STILL point the barrel somewhere safe...
 
I think people just get lazy or complacent and don't follow the rules.

Normally in an IPSC run, after you are done shooting a stage there is a sequence you go through to show the gun is unloaded. It involves pulling the trigger to get the hammer down. I saw a shooter once go into unload mode after he loaded it and sent a round into the backstop.

If you are shooting DA, you have to start with the hammer down. I also saw a guy pull the trigger on a P85 instead of using the hammer drop once during an IPSC match. Not sure if he had been using the trigger to drop the hammer or just hit the wrong control for some reason.

I am always nervous using the hammer drop on a chamber with a live round. It just bugs me that you are dropping the hammer on a live round, even though I know it is not going off. Plus it is somewhat of an awkward move on most guns that have them that I have fired.

I also think people are way too easily distracted when working around firearms. I get real nervous around people who go to field strip a gun around me and are paying more attention to me than the gun.
 
Wow

I understand that striker-fired pistols are popular. I know that the Glock has a huge following. I've also noticed that there are a disproportionally high number of AD/ND events with these designs.
Is there? Give me some numbers. How many Glocks are in the hands of LE compared to other pistols? How many NDs?
 
A lot of people that say that any pistol that requires the trigger to be pulled to field strip is a dangerous design also recommend that people practice by dry firing. So if you can drop the mag, rack and check the chamber for dryfire practice, why can't you drop the mag, rack and check the chamber for cleaning too? If one is "unsafe" isn't the other just as "unsafe"? If you never point the gun at yourself while pulling the trigger, it's very easy to not shoot yourself.:rolleyes:
 
I never understand...

all the fuss about the pulling the trigger to disassemble a Glock. I guess all the folks that get so worked up about this NEVER dry fire their handguns.

If he hadn't ND'd into his hand while attempting to dissassemble a Glock for cleaning he would have just as likely ND'd into something (or someone) else while dry firing his 1911.

If one follows the correct protocols, pulling the trigger to dissassemble a Glock is no big deal. If one is not willing to follow the correct protocols when handling firearms then it doesn't matter what firearm one has the long term prognosis is not healthy.

It's not the object... it's the human brain manipulating the object that causes the problem.

as always...one man's opinion.

migoi
 
This was not an accidental discharge. This was a
negligent discharge.

Just because I feel like adding something...

It's popular around here to push the idea of AD's being mechanical failures and Nds being rules violations.

Negligence has a very specific meaning. Negligence is a deriliction of reasonable standards of conduct which results in harm to others.

As such, a mechanical failure induced discharge can be a negligent discharge if, as an example, the manufacturer didn't design or QA the components in conformance to industry standards. Likewise a human-induced discharge -- including one that causes bodily harm -- can be an accidental discharge if, again as an example, the human was attempting to follow standard conduct but failed in ways that any reasonable person might fail.

It doesn't do us ANY favors to accept an expanded definition of negligence. The only thing it does is give civil attorneys ammunition to attack gun owners.

The primary division is reasonable conduct. If in general your conduct was based on reasonable caution you were not negligent. In this case the guy was cleaning a firearm, thought he had cleared it, and did the necessary step of relieving the striker by pulling the trigger. The gun was aimed in a way that was unlikely to harm others. Not negligence. The second issue is consequence to others. In this case nobody else was harmed so it was not negligence.

Falling off a bicycle isn't negligence. If you make a gun that a reasonable person would know is going to be unsafe to fire and hurt yourself, that's not negligence. If you sell the gun to someone and they hurt themselves (or someone else) it becomes negligence.

If you handle a gun in a way that a reasonable person would know is unsafe, but you do it in a private area where others are very unlikely to be hurt, that is not negligence. If you do the same thing in a crowd and hurt someone else it becomes negligence.

If you handle a gun in a way that all reasonable people would consider to be safe (e.g. you are carrying a drop-tested pistol in a holster and trip) and it discharges it may not be negligence even if someone else is killed.

AD means "nobody else was harmed (in body or property) OR the harm was not preventable by standard conduct of reasonable people."
ND means "gun discharged and BECAUSE of a recognized violation of standard conduct of reasonable people someone OTHER THAN the violator of standard conduct came to harm."

This was an accidental discharge. The person made a mistake, hurt himself, and the bullet stopped short of harming anyone else. The only way it could be called negligent is if you are arguing that Glock was negligent in designing a firearm that needed a trigger actuation to disassemble, or maybe that didn't have a loaded chamber indicator.
 
Beatnik said:
To anyone who has not heard this before:
This was not an accidental discharge. This was a negligent discharge.
I can't believe it took 25 posts before someone pointed this out.
 
Who cleans a gun in his bedroom?

The kitchen table I could understand.
The living room coffee table I could understand.

That is, if you don't have a garage or work room.

But the bedroom? Seriously?

Were there cleaning supplies set out in the room?
 
Beatnik said:
1. All guns are always loaded.

Sorta. If all guns are always loaded, then all guns would be dirty because you don't clean a loaded gun (especially Glocks).

Treat all firearms as if they were loaded until you have personally verified otherwise.

Anyway, I owned a Glock 17 from 1987 through 2005 and I was always aware of this issue. Why? Because they made it very clear in the manual. This tragedy wasn’t the result of a design flaw, it was likely due to complacency.
 
Ed Ames said:
This was an accidental discharge. The person made a mistake, hurt himself, and the bullet stopped short of harming anyone else. The only way it could be called negligent is if you are arguing that Glock was negligent in designing a firearm that needed a trigger actuation to disassemble, or maybe that didn't have a loaded chamber indicator.
Sorry, I have to disagree. Even by your own definitions above, cleaning a loaded firearm is not something a reasonable person would do, and it IS easily prevented. The guy was negligent in not verifying that the pistol was empty, ergo the incident was a negligent discharge, not an accidental discharge.
 
As a result of previous posts about the S&W M&P and the Springfield XD I downloaded and read the manuals for both.

The M&P's sear deactivation lever is a clever idea and is effective if you bother to use it. Unfortunately it is not necessary to use it. After rotating the disassembly lever, while easing the slide off, you can pull the trigger as the slide closes on the barrel and that will enable you to get the gun apart.

The XD requires you to pull the trigger while removing the slide.

One advantage the M&P and XD do have is that you must lock back the slide before you can operate the takedown lever. This at least gives you an opportunity to check the chamber.

The Glock only requires you to pull the slide back about 3mm before you pull the slide lock, so you can blithely field-strip the gun without ever opening the slide far enough to see if the gun is clear.

The fact that a striker fired pistol must be decocked for field-stripping is a nasty problem for idiots who don't bother clearing their guns before messing around with them. As has been mentioned previously, the P7 gets around this problem rather nicely.
 
cleaning a loaded firearm is not
something a reasonable person would do, and it IS
easily prevented.

But is it a mistake a reasonable person could make? Yes. If it wasn't we wouldn't need all the elaborate clearing rituals. We wouldn't see videos of DEA agents -- people trained to handle firearms -- shooting themselves in the foot either.

The guy was negligent in not
verifying that the pistol was empty, ergo the
incident was a negligent discharge, not an accidental
discharge.

For it to be negligence someone (other than the person who made the mistake) had to have been harmed. Who was harmed? The mattress owner? The Home owner? The carpet owner? I assume the guy was in his own house. The insurance company? Do you really want to give health insurance companies grounds to refuse to pay for treatment for accidentally self-inflicted gunshot wounds?

Sorry, nobody but the person who made the mistake was harmed... it was not negligence. It was an accident.
 
Except in the event of a mechanical failure that causes a weapon to discharge, there's no such thing as an "accidental" discharge.

The owner fired the weapon in violation of basic safety procedures arising from either ignorance or complacency. In other words, he was negligent in his duty to abide by safe handling procedures.

negligence

Main Entry:
neg·li·gence Listen to the pronunciation of negligence
Pronunciation:
\ˈne-gli-jən(t)s\
Function:
noun
Date:
14th century

1 a: the quality or state of being negligent
b: failure to exercise the care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in like circumstances
2: an act or instance of being negligent
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top