Bad experience at a gun shop

[CNYCacher]

Well well well.
A gun store owner pretending he's not interested in buying something you have to sell. . .

If that don't beat all!

 

[zoom6zoom]

Hey, you've got a gun show in your neck of the woods in Upper Marlboro this weekend - maybe you can do some trading.

 

[cbsbyte]

I hate to say it but there are some very ignorant bigoted people in the gun community. Guns seem to attract people from all walks of life, and 95% are good up standing people but some seem to have just crawled out of stone age. There is a lot of hostility towards Jews in certain circles of society, which you probably have dealt with before. Just don't do business with them.

 

[Bilt4Comfort]

cbsbyte, your estimation of 95% of "gun people" being "good upstanding" folks is in my estimation...quite high.

 

[magsnubby]

Every time i read on of these threads i remember:

About a year ago i stopped by my favorite gun shop to see if they had a particular handgun i had been kicking around buying. The door was locked. There was a sign on the front door that said "RING BUZZER". ***? In all the years i had done business with John, they had never had a deal like that. The counter guy recognized me and hit the remote to unlock the door. I walk on in. Counter Guy is packin' a Sig .40. Okay he always carries. Sharron (John's daughter) has a Taurus 605 sob. Still not unusual. John's packin'. Now that's unusual. I ask John "What's up with the buzzer?" Seems earlier that day someone called the store and wanted to know what time they opened, what time they closed, so John gives him his business hours. Then the guy asks how many employees work at the store. John refuses to tell him. Then the guy demands to know how many people are in the store. So John hangs up on the guy. But it spooked them all pretty good.

So we're standing around talking about the phone call, commenting about how crazy things and people have gotten in this town when Sharron looks up and says "Like these guys?" I look up at the front door. Two Hispanic guys are walking towards the front door. One looks to be in his early teens. The other, maybe early twenties. The younger one has on baggie pants, and very short (not shaved, kind of a buzz cut) hair and a red sweat shirt. Typical gangbanger attire for this area. The older is clean cut, sporting a buzz cut, blue jeans and a light jacket. Not gangbanger attire at all.

Counter Guy hits the remote and they walk in. The older one wants to see a shotgun and points to a Mossburg 12 gauge pump. Sharron hands him the shotgun. Then he asks to see a diferent shotgun. Just watching how he handles the shotgun i can tell the guy knows something about weapons.

The younger one turns to me, smiles and says "That's my brother. He just got back from Iraq."

Every time i find myself starting to judge someone by their appearance, and we're all guilty of it at one time or another, i remember those two brothers. And i feel ashamed.

 

[obxned]

I guess they don't need your business. All the gun shops I know are only interested in whether you are an Orthodox 1911 man, and won't even discriminate if your are involved with some strange cult of hi-cap 9mm's.

 

[PILMAN]

I've never experienced anti-semitism except for a gunshow and I was told "Jews are welcome to buy their guns in Jew Jersey, your type aren't into so called assault weapons", I guess I was a little too near the national alliance vendors.

That's really about it, never had any other issues but I just shrug it off normally. I guess it's possible for some gun owners to dislike Jews or label them but that's normal everywhere, just take your business elsewhere. Their loss right?

I know some gun owners associate Jews as being anti-gun or gun grabbers in particular so maybe thats where the comment came from =/

 

[hoji]

The point isn't that they were gun owners at all. His point is that the only difference was his choice of headgear caused a change in behavior of the staff. This behavior is a textbook definition of antisemitism which is: Prejudice, discrimination or persecution against Jews.

First let me point out that if you are biased against Muslims, you are also anti Semitic. Jews dont hold the copyright on Semitism.

Second, you are absolutely right not to ever go back into that store again.

 

[rdaines]

Every time i find myself starting to judge someone by their appearance, and we're all guilty of it at one time or another, i remember those two brothers. And i feel ashamed.

I believe we all do this and it's a natural behavior, what's important is how we respond to those feels and then recognizing that we were either right or wrong about those prejudgements.

 

[GEM]

Have had rare but similar experiences. One was close to being life threatening.

However, there are plenty of regular idiots in some gun stores also.

One sad fact is that many Jews see the gun culture as correlated with prejudice. Without exposure to gun usage, being an urban group, of course, they don't value it. There is enough of it expressed to reinforce that belief. We've seen it on lists like this but quickly damped down by our moderators.

I've explained my experiences in my sig URLs.

 

[REPOMAN]

Craziness

Chaim,,,
Don't Let This Guy Get To You. He's Just Jealous That You Can Afford A Sunroof And He Can't!!!!! Go To The Next Shop You Come To And Explain What Happened And I'll Bet They Will Be Elated To Gain Your Business!!!!!!!!

 

[Big Daddy K]

I dont think I know any Jews. There is that one Jewish guy on Youtube that has a pretty good commentary on gun control that makes a lot of sense.

There is one gun shop I no longer trade with because I think they are azz holz. Maybey they just dont like me. Who knows.

Back to Jews. I guess I dont have anything against them as a people, religion or any individual. Now Muslims, thats a different story.

On the gang banger deal. I do not trust people who look to me like they may be up to no good. You can call it semetic, racist, or whatever. I call it situational awareness. If I'm wrong thats ok.

 

[jdm1986]

I think you have a right to rant and no one can really say for sure either way, whether it was bigots or just people in a bad mood.

I know that my favorite gun shop has a very intelligent guy working there; he knows his stuff. One day he's real nice to me and talks a lot, the next time I'm in there he's stand-offish and somewhat rude (then again, I have been known to take attitudes the wrong way). It's kind of awkward, and not the best way to act on his part, but maybe I come off the same way. People feel different one day to the next, at least I do. I'm not saying their attitudes weren't because of antisemitism, all I'm saying is - haven't there been days when you're annoyed by everyone and don't act rationally?? I have them quite often..

 

[Werewolf]

On the gang banger deal. I do not trust people who look to me like they may be up to no good. You can call it semetic, racist, or whatever. I call it situational awareness. If I'm wrong thats ok.

Well - there is something to be said for that attitude.

If you treat everyone who dresses and acts like a gangbanger like you would a law abiding citizen eventually the odds will catch up with you and you'll be dead or otherwise will suffer some criminal act.

If you treat everyone who dresses and acts like a gangbanger like you would a potential threat then you've just decreased your odds of being a victim of gangbanger crime.

You can be right 9,999 times out of 10,000. It's that 10,000th time that will kill ya. The point is that it just takes being wrong ONCE!

Don't wanna be treated like a scum bag? Don't dress and act like a scumbag! That's not prejudice - that's just smart. That may not be the politically correct attitude but since Darwin always wins - eventually - it is the attitude that will keep you alive.

 

[quatin]

Don't mingle with anyone at all. That way you have 0% chance of being snuffed out by someone.

There's a lot of missing information on this post. Too much of a stretch to call it racism I think. If he hated Jews so much, why did he even allow you to enter the store?

 

[chaim]

OK, several people have asked for the name of the shop. It usually isn't my style to post negative info of this magnitude about a shop or person publicly so I'd prefer not to give the name on a public forum (especially one this wide read). I'll be more than happy to give you the name individually if you PM me, but in the slim chance I misread the situation and it was just garden variety rudeness I don't want to nationally publicize someone as prejudiced.

Several people have asked me to list the guns on THR (or use the upcoming MD gunshow). Well, I strongly prefer local sales and listing on THR will mostly generate responses from other parts of the country. Selling locally is just easier (no FFLs and no shipping and insurance). I've sold guns privately in the past (handguns and rifles) and to shops (this is my first experience with consignment). Privately, they sell best a little below market value and you have to deal with recordkeeping and for handguns in MD you have to go through the local state police barracks (a major pain in the rear). Selling direct to a dealer means less money, but you get it immediately and you have little administrative work to do (just put the receipt with the original sales receipt). Selling on consignment is the best of both worlds. You have professional help pricing the guns, people often are willing to pay a shop a bit more than they would an individual (less bargain shopping may just about pay for the 20% consignment fee), and like a sale to the dealer there is less administrative hassle to deal with (no FFL licenses or shipping, no visits to the state police barracks).

I’ve found gun shop owners to be some of the most rude and moody retailers I’ve dealt with. Some times I think I appear to be a valued customer in their eyes and the next visit I’m treated to as a threat.

i agree with jdkelly's statement :" I’ve found gun shop owners to be some of the most rude and moody retailers I’ve dealt with. Some times I think I appear to be a valued customer in their eyes and the next visit I’m treated to as a threat."
i never see the atitude and arrogance in a dive shop or a bike store that i seem to often encounter from gun store owners

I generally agree, at least compared to general retailers (or at rather, at a general retailer you may have rudeness inspired by laziness or disinterest, at gunshops it does often seem to be more snobbery). However, I'm not so sure it is just gunshops. I think it may be fairly common to specialty and hobby oriented shops in general. Anyway, for those who refuse to consider this antisemitism, how about commenting on the poor service and dangerous gunhandling (since as much as the antisemitism that is what my rant was about) instead of arguing over my ability to recognize antisemitism when I see it?

I hate to say it but there are some very ignorant bigoted people in the gun community

Not just in the gun community. It is more widespread than we'd like to admit I think. As for antisemitism specifically, I find it exists on the right and in the gun community, but it is far more prevalent among those on the left than those on the right.

In the future, come on down to Montgomery county, where they won't blink an eye. The only problem I have with this discussion is that you could replace the word "jewish" with black, redneck, hispanic and a dozen other descriptors and expect the same reaction from _some_ business.

That is indeed one of the (few) positives about Montgomery County MD. Actually though, I've only had a problem at two gunshops anywhere in MD, most have been generally positive experiences (and other than those two, the only rudeness I've experienced has been general rudeness and not antisemitism).

Anyway, I agree that while I see antisemitism (because it is directed against me) that is only part of it. Generally, most people who are prejudiced against one group (or at least strongly enough that it actually effects their interactions with people) are prejudiced or racist against others as well.

 

[chaim]

Too many people are questioning my ability to accurately recognize antisemitism to respond to each individually. Let me start by directing you to Werewolf's terrific analysis of how hard it can be to recognize prejudice if you never experienced it yourself (post #27 in this thread).

I'll start by saying, I do understand your reluctance to view this as antisemitism. Before I became religious and wore religious clothing, I never saw much racism or prejudice out there either. I wanted to believe it was something we had beaten and that was part of our past, not our present. All of my black friends and other minority friends reported fairly regular exposure to racism and prejudice. I just figured they were being paranoid, that it couldn't be that widespread. Even though these were people who were otherwise well grounded and quite intelligent, I just figured that they must be misreading situations and other people's intentions. It never occurred to me that they may be seeing what they said they were seeing. It never occurred to me to consider that maybe they were correct and I was the one who was mistaken. There was just no way prejudice could still be that bad.

Before I became religious and recognizably Jewish I didn't even think antisemitism could be that bad because I rarely saw it first hand. There was one guy on a plane who was telling me how I had to pretend to befriend the Jews because "they control the money". In college in Vermont I regularly was exposed to several people who would tell others to stop "Jewing" ____ (fill in the blank) if they were taking too much of something or not sharing and who told people they were acting like a Jew when they were acting selfishly. Online, now and then I ran into someone who thought we ran the government, or business, or... Over the course of years, that was it. Some were more annoying than others, but (except for the acquainances at college) not too big a deal because it was easy enough to chalk up to one or two idiots and get away from it and they were people I didn't care about.

I do know how to differentiate between antisemitic behavior and general rudeness. One shop/range I often frequent has a manager (possibly a co-owner) who is often extremely rude. At times it is so bad I've stopped going there for a period of time. However: 1) he is rude with everyone, 2) it is pretty obvious he is just rude and snobby and it isn't due to my religion. There are usually non-verbal cues. Some are pretty discreet and hard to quantify but you still see them. Others (like some given by the store owner and his employee in this event) are pretty obvious- a normal face when talking to someone else replaced by a hostile glare when he notices you, frequent and hostile looks towards the yarmulke (or when worn out instead of tucked, the tzitzit). It usually isn't hard for human beings to be able to tell the difference between rudeness and hostility (recognizing hostility is pretty instinctual actually). Over time I've learned to be able to (usually) differentiate between hostile looks versus curious glances at my yarmulke when out in society. You can usually tell the difference in someone's face and expression if they are curious about something, looking at something they like, or if they are feeling hostility. And yes, I have at times had people throw antisemitic comments at me. However, a comment isn't needed to be able to read someone's intent most of the time, especially in face to face encounters. It is especially obvious when one person gets one type of treatment and a minority member gets different treatment, or even more obvious when one person gets one kind of treatment on one visit while wearing a baseball cap and the same person gets another type of treatment when returning with a yarmulke.

 

[Radjxf]

Unfortunately as one earlier poster mentioned, gun shop owners tend to be some of the biggest you-know-whats you'll ever meet. And not the smartest ones either. I'd be willing to bet they had no idea what religious affiliation you had, just that your yarmulke was something they hadn't seen in person before.
I'd also politely inform bubba that he was dangerously close to a revolver enema after pointing the muzzle at me with finger on the trigger

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

i deal with idiots on a regular basis and i'm not even wearing a yamulke. seriously though, don't let people get you mad....it's their problem, not yours.

 

[mec]

biggest you-know-whats you'll ever meet. And not the smartest ones either

Right. They might have been watching CNN and thought your yarmulke was a Liberal Democrat Hat.

I read an article by a Jewish guy who felt that he had been left out of the International Zionist Conspiracy. He kept hearing about how the Elders of Zion were trying to take over the world and keep all the stuff for themselves. He was all for it. He wanted his share. He looked and looked but could find no trail that would lead him to the movement.

 

[Brother in Arms]

Chaim

The treatment you recieved from the business owner was BS! I don't blame you in anyway for not patronizing that shop. Antisemtism aside the owner pointing your own firearm at you is absolutely unconcionable.

Given the story of the baseball cap vs. Yarmulke is a reasonable indicator of religious prejudice, though it is possible they didn't know you where Jewish. Many people are remarkably stupid about everything and unfortunatley ignorance doesn't keep them from being suspicious of people who are "different" from them. Of course there is no one who hasn't been predjudices of someone at sometime. I feel many of us RKBA supporters are often predjudice of "liberals" and or those we see as "ant's" because we think they are out to get our guns and eventually us. Where as many of them simply have had no contact with firearms so they inturn fear them.


Recently I have been getting some wierd looks from people, and I think its because as I have grown a full beard. I am of Irish and English decent, but I have very dark hair and a dark complecion. Since I have grown the beard I have gotten comments from people that I look like an Arab or a Muslim and "maybe I should think about shaving it off." When I was in college (beofore I had the beard)I had a Russian freind who was pretty sure I was a Chechen, or at the least a Muslim because I had dark hair and skin, and especially because I did not drink.

People will always haveprejudice and little can be done about aother than not let there stupidity get you down. However when it come to dangerous gun handling I can't let it go without comment. If saying "point that muzzle in a safe direction" in a serious tone got me thrown out or cursed at then so be it. Its always good to be polite but don't take S**T from anyone.

Have a good day
Brother in Arms

 

[Sonora Rebel]

Chaim: Whats a nice Jewish boy from Columbia (of all places) doin' playin' with guns? OY! You could get hurt! (sound familiar?) 'Call Tom Marr... the talk radio guy there... Tell 'em about it... and mention the store. You should'a gone to that gunshop up York Rd... toward Hampstead. 'Forgot the name of it... it's off to the right in the middle of nowhere. Glen Burnie is still fulla schmucks. Buy (or sell) your guns someplace else.

 

[Joe Sacco]

Sorry for your trouble, but it was a cheap lesson. A chazzer bleibt a chazzer. He would have stuck it to you eventually, yarmulke or no yarmulke. Warn your friends. Best, Joe

 

[whited]

.

I just popped by to say that it was anti-Jewish behavior that you
experienced, not necessarily anti-Semitic behavior.

kthxbye.

 

[TimboKhan]

McCall911, you're right, they probably were afraid of the yarmulke. A lot of people are afraid of what they don't know, and there aren't a lot of Orthodox Jews walking around in Glen Burnie MD

Well, there aren't a lot of orthodox jews walking around in Greeley, Colorado either, but I sure am not afraid of a yarmulke. This seems like a goofy statement to me, although the situation itself seems to indicate a degree of anti-semitism and is not goofy at all.

I just popped by to say that it was anti-Jewish behavior that you
experienced, not necessarily anti-Semitic behavior

Color me uninformed, but whats the difference?