Bad Gun Store Experience

Status
Not open for further replies.
No, but in some states the FFL is billed $10 for each background check they run

New Jersey State NICS charges $15 per. And they have limited hours compared to the Federal NICS. They are only open from 9 AM to 8 PM Monday through Friday and only 10 AM to 5 PM on Saturday.

They are CLOSED Sundays and State and Federal Holidays...and whenever the state government shuts down due to weather issues like snow.

The $15 does NOT include the FFL fee

"$59 FFL Transfer fees??? ($40 fee + $15 NICS + 7%tax)"

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/38258-59-ffl-transfer-fees-40-fee-15-nics-7tax/
.
 
or he planned on pocketing the extra $25.

That was my first thought when he first asked what you were expecting to pay (if it was $50 all along he wouldn't have asked you first, just asked for your $50) and then didn't want the manager to know. I'd still call and mention it to the manager. He might want to know if his clerk is extorting an extra $25 on each transfer and/or you might want to know to look for a different FFL if this really is his policy.

still stand on what I said - after weeks of waiting for delivery, more could have been done to nail down the details and prevent it. A third party arranged this deal with only one perfunctory conversation on the part of the OP. Is that the way you would do it?

Frankly, not every customer is worth all the hand holding and high maintenance they demand - and those of us who actually work retail can give you about 100 pages of our anecdotes justifying what the clerk may have been doing.

Well, make up your mind. If I ask once and you tell me it's $25, should I call back 4-5 times and make sure it's really $25, then make sure it's still $25 and them make sure that it's $25 even if I'm left handed? I guess if you expect to have a full time employee on my speed dial you might need to charge a little more. My guy expects me to show up a day or so after the gun shows up and pick the gun up. He normally leaves a cryptic "Hi this is XXX at YYY, I've got a package for Henry" type of phone call on either my work or home phone, but if I don't show up for awhile neither of us gets too stressed about it.
 
(heavy sigh) ... if only that were true ... and my time was worth nothing


Yep, for the next 20 YEARS, and you're expected to be able to produce that paperwork on a moments notice during those 20 years.

So, allow me to ask...how much time are we talking to do a transfer to an individual? It doesn't seem to me (a consumer) that it would take a large amount of time? You hand them the form, they fill it out, you call it in. The firearm arrives, you log it in, the customer comes in, you log it out. Maybe, if you suggest and/or they grab a few things, you make a sale on some accessories or ammo.

As for storage for 20 years, that's an entry in your log book that you're required to store anyways, right? If you have 200 empty rows in that log book you're storing, wouldn't you rather fill those up and make $5000 at the same time? I was referring more to just keeping the firearm stored on the premises until the person picks it up.

If it's such a hassle and expense, why does anyone do transfers then.
 
The storage for 20 years is referring to the form 4473. If the FFL goes out of business or otherwise declines to renew his license then the 4473s are sent in to the ATF to be kept for the remainder of the 20 years.

I wish they took gun shop out of Bud's it seems to be place like Amazon.com not a true gun shop at all.

Ummm, you do realize that much of what's sold through Amazon.com is coming from a mom & pop store? Just this weekend I ordered a used book on WWI from a small used book store in MI. Amazon makes it easy for the customer to find the exact book they're looking for and allows a small store to sell nationwide.

Sadly the 68 GCA throws up artificial trade barriers when it comes to selling used guns.
 
Last edited:
Most Americans never see it both ways
There's only ONE way.

They committed to a price and tried to renege, PERIOD.

Don't say $25 if you don't mean it.

They're LIARS.

Other than the government, I don't do business with liars, and I wouldn't deal with them given the choice.
 
I paid $100 once about 5 years ago, I had no choice. My cousin was doing me a favor and taking a gun from NY to LI to send it to me, and I only had 3 hrs to get an FFL, before he came back to Chicago. The only guy I could find, being new in town wanted $100.00, so I paid it.
It was either pay it or lose the Rifle.
Since I have found 2 guys who get 25 and 30 dollars.
 
stonecutter2

So, allow me to ask...how much time are we talking to do a transfer to an individual?
5-10 minutes, depending on whether the buyer has a CHL or if I have to call FBI NICS.




It doesn't seem to me (a consumer) that it would take a large amount of time? You hand them the form, they fill it out, you call it in. The firearm arrives, you log it in, the customer comes in, you log it out.
What the customer sees of the transfer is the tip of the iceberg.
Opening boxes, logging in firearms, notifying customers that their shipment has arrived........is 45-60 minutes every day (if I'm not disturbed).

The actual transfer (4473/NICS) is about five to ten minutes......each.






As for storage for 20 years, that's an entry in your log book that you're required to store anyways, right?
Ha ha! That's the easy part. I have to keep each 4473 on file for twenty years. Storage of 4473's isn't cheap, they take up a lot of room. I cannot store them off site, they must be stored at my premises.




I was referring more to just keeping the firearm stored on the premises until the person picks it up.
Safes, alarms and inventory insurance ain't free.



If it's such a hassle and expense, why does anyone do transfers then.
It's not a hassle to me, because that's the majority of my business.





.
 
My LGS charges $50 per transfer. I'm happy to pay it. I want the guy to stay in business. I haven't bought many guns from him, but have done a number of transfers.

The $50 transfers also makes me immune to his attempts to send me on a guilt trip for not buying more from him or not letting him find a gun I want. If he has what I want on the shelf for a decent price, I'll buy it. But all the real duds I've bought were guns that a LGS 'found' for me...so I don't like to go that route.
 
What the customer sees of the transfer is the tip of the iceberg.
Opening boxes, logging in firearms, notifying customers that their shipment has arrived........is 45-60 minutes every day (if I'm not disturbed).

The actual transfer (4473/NICS) is about five to ten minutes......each.

45-60 minutes per gun? Or is that 45-60 minutes for all inventory that has come in that day (transfers, new store stock, etc...)? How long would you say is the actual time per gun for a transfer?
From my limited experience (I'm not an FFL but I have helped a friend with a couple):
Open box and take gun out of box: 1 minute
Log the gun: 5 minutes
Store the gun: 1 minute
Notify the customer: 2 minutes
Retrieve gun from storage: 1 minute
Verify the 4473 and call in the check: 10 minutes (most of that time is waiting for the response)
Collect fee: 1 minute
File paperwork: 1 minute
Log out the gun: 1 minute

That's 23 minutes total and those are generous times for these actions. Not to mention that with bulk, these times will be less (e.g. if you have 5 guns come in at the same time, storing and logging them in will take less time per gun as the overhead for each activity will be shared across 5 guns). At $25 a transfer, that's a little less that $75 an hour. I'd be very curious to know if these numbers are close for other FFLs.

Ha ha! That's the easy part. I have to keep each 4473 on file for twenty years. Storage of 4473's isn't cheap, they take up a lot of room. I cannot store them off site, they must be stored at my premises.

This is a business overhead cost. If a person sells guns (and if you do transfers, you have an FFL and by law, must sell guns) they're doing all this anyway.

Safes, alarms and inventory insurance ain't free.

Again, if a person is in the business of selling guns (requirement for FFL), they should have/need this regardless if they do transfers or not.
 
All businesses have paperwork, plus you have to keep all written records of financial transactions for most businesses, so you can't make that an issue.
Every business I had involved crates of paperwork contracts, employee insurance files etc. etc that required space to keep them in. That's the cost of doing business. If you don't want to offer transfers just price yourself out of the market. Personally I would do them all day.
It took 5 minutes to buy a gun on Saturday, I could learn to love doing that every 5 minutes for 25 to 50 bucks a smack.
Either that or price match.
 
NoVA Shooter Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
What the customer sees of the transfer is the tip of the iceberg.
Opening boxes, logging in firearms, notifying customers that their shipment has arrived........is 45-60 minutes every day (if I'm not disturbed).

The actual transfer (4473/NICS) is about five to ten minutes......each.
45-60 minutes per gun?
No, "logging in firearms" implies more than one. ;)




How long would you say is the actual time per gun for a transfer?
I've never put a stopwatch and calculator to it but it's pretty much what I wrote above..........45-60 minutes for unpacking and logging in firearms, 5-10 minutes for the 4473/NICS....each.




...... At $25 a transfer, that's a little less that $75 an hour. I'd be very curious to know if these numbers are close for other FFLs.
Sometimes I do ten transfers an hour @ $20 each......that doesn't mean I make $200 an hour. You state a common misconception......that the hourly earnings can be calculated based on the number of transfers. What your calculations do not show are the hours NOT spent directly with the customer.
Answering the phone, answering emails, chasing down other dealers for missing information.




Quote:
Ha ha! That's the easy part. I have to keep each 4473 on file for twenty years. Storage of 4473's isn't cheap, they take up a lot of room. I cannot store them off site, they must be stored at my premises.
This is a business overhead cost.....
No kidding?:rolleyes:
The point you missed is that storage of 4473's and other records isn't free, it's another business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of doing transfers.




If a person sells guns (and if you do transfers, you have an FFL and by law, must sell guns) they're doing all this anyway.
Please show me tht Federal law (or ATF regulation) that requires me to sell guns.:scrutiny:





Quote:
Safes, alarms and inventory insurance ain't free.
Again, if a person is in the business of selling guns (requirement for FFL), they should have/need this regardless if they do transfers or not.
And again, I was pointing out business expenses that occur whether yo are a home based dealer or a brick and mortar. Quite a few people think a home based or kitchen table dealer has no overhead, and that transfers "are gravy" for all dealers. that simply isn't true.

And again, please let me know more about that federal law requiring me to sell guns.:D



.
 
No, "logging in firearms" implies more than one. ;)

:eek: Fair enough. The point being is that the rest of the iceberg that is a transfer, isn't 45-60 minutes :)



I've never put a stopwatch and calculator to it but it's pretty much what I wrote above..........45-60 minutes for unpacking and logging in firearms, 5-10 minutes for the 4473/NICS....each.

"...actual time per gun for a transfer" implies the time it takes to do a transfer for a single gun (and as you so clearly pointed out, the 45-60 minutes were for firearms"). ;)


Sometimes I do ten transfers an hour @ $20 each......that doesn't mean I make $200 an hour. You state a common misconception......that the hourly earnings can be calculated based on the number of transfers.

Well, technically, you do make $200 an hour, just gross profit, not net profit. I never said you make a profit of $75 and hour. Just that you bring in $75 an hour. If that is more than what you pay an employee (at their full burdened rate plus pro-rated overhead), then you're making a profit. As with any other business, if a person bringing in $75 an hour doing activity ABC can be bring in more than that doing activity XYZ, then of course the business plan needs to be re-evaluated.

What your calculations do not show are the hours NOT spent directly with the customer.
Answering the phone, answering emails, chasing down other dealers for missing information.

In relation to a specific transfer? If so, how often do these things happen? I genuinely want to know because that kind of information makes a difference in the perceived impression of what is involved in a transfer. For my part, I'm only talking about the cost to do a specific transfer, not run other aspects of the business.

No kidding?:rolleyes:
The point you missed is that storage of 4473's and other records isn't free, it's another business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of doing transfers.

Nope, didn't miss that. My point is that it's a business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of having an FFL.



Please show me tht Federal law (or ATF regulation) that requires me to sell guns.:scrutiny:
Yep, got me there. In my rush to post, I didn't review what I had written. My brain was off on another tangent I came off like a idiot. Damn brain.... :banghead:

And again, I was pointing out business expenses that occur whether yo are a home based dealer or a brick and mortar. Quite a few people think a home based or kitchen table dealer has no overhead, and that transfers "are gravy" for all dealers. that simply isn't true.

And, again, I was pointing out that that cost is a part of having an FFL (and all other licensing that goes with owning/running a business) and is spread across all sales/transfers. I agree that it is not correct or fair to assume that a transfer is pure gravy. However, for brick and mortar dealers, most of the overhead associated to a transfer is already accounted for in the fact they are running a business (their employees are being paid regardless if they're standing around doing nothing or doing a transfer. The rent has to be paid whether or not any transfers are done. Guns have to be securely stored regardless if the gun is store stock or a transfer. Etc, etc...) For kitchen table dealers, yes more of the overhead has to be taken into account from the business of doing transfers but let's be realistic, if done correctly, it's not that much and very little is a re-occurring expense (e.g. a safe is a one time purchase that will be paid of eventually).

Listen, we both know that you far and away more knowledgeable than I on FFLs and transfers. That’s the reason I find it very useful to get insights from you and other FFLs; I've done a lot of research and some observation but nothing beats information form the horse's mouth. My overall argument is with the FFLs that say “$25 is not worth doing transfers”, or “it takes a lot more the 20 minutes to do a transfer”. I just don’t see it and would like to know actual facts that support these statements.
 
Last edited:
NoVA Shooter
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
No, "logging in firearms" implies more than one.
Fair enough. The point being is that the rest of the iceberg that is a transfer, isn't 45-60 minutes
Are you saying that I'm wrong?:scrutiny:
Seriously, for someone that isn't a dealer and has never done a firearm transfer you have some nerve to dispute what I wrote. You most certainly don't know jack squat about MY transfer business.

Monday-Saturday I spend at least 45 minutes each day opening boxes and logging in firearms............that's plural, meaning more than one and on average eight a day.




Quote:
I've never put a stopwatch and calculator to it but it's pretty much what I wrote above..........45-60 minutes for unpacking and logging in firearms, 5-10 minutes for the 4473/NICS....each.

"...actual time per gun for a transfer" implies the time it takes to do a transfer for a single gun (and as you so clearly pointed out, the 45-60 minutes were for firearms").
I don't know who you are quoting, I didn't make that statement in red. :rolleyes:



Quote:
Sometimes I do ten transfers an hour @ $20 each......that doesn't mean I make $200 an hour. You state a common misconception......that the hourly earnings can be calculated based on the number of transfers.
Well, technically, you do make $200 an hour, just gross profit, not net profit.
No, If I made $200 an hour I would quit my teaching job. Simply collecting $200 in fees in sixty minutes doesn't mean someone earns $200 an hour.....that's just ridiculous.





I never said you make a profit of $75 and hour.
Neither did I.;)
But you did write "At $25 a transfer, that's a little less that $75 an hour..."




If that is more than what you pay an employee (at their full burdened rate plus pro-rated overhead), then you're making a profit. As with any other business, if a person bringing in $75 an hour doing activity ABC can be bring in more than that doing activity XYZ, then of course the business plan needs to be re-evaluated.
Since I have no employees, this is irrelevant to my business.





Quote:
What your calculations do not show are the hours NOT spent directly with the customer.
Answering the phone, answering emails, chasing down other dealers for missing information.

In relation to a specific transfer?
Well, yeah, pretty nearly every transfer involves my customer asking me (via phone or email) to send my FFL to the seller.

Occasionally I get a mystery gun.....no shipper ID, no buyer ID. Then I get to play internet detective.




If so, how often do these things happen?
I get 15-20 phone calls and 30-40 emails a day that are firearms business related.



I genuinely want to know because that kind of information makes a difference in the perceived impression of what is involved in a transfer. For my part, I'm only talking about the cost to do a specific transfer, not run other aspects of the business.
Transferring a gun bought on Gunbroker is exactly the same process as selling a gun the dealer has in inventory. The paperwork is identical.







Quote:
No kidding?
The point you missed is that storage of 4473's and other records isn't free, it's another business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of doing transfers.

Nope, didn't miss that. My point is that it's a business expense that eats into the financial goldmine of having an FFL.
That's funny.





Quote:
And again, I was pointing out business expenses that occur whether yo are a home based dealer or a brick and mortar. Quite a few people think a home based or kitchen table dealer has no overhead, and that transfers "are gravy" for all dealers. that simply isn't true.



My overall argument is with the FFLs that say “$25 is not worth doing transfers”, or “it takes a lot more the 20 minutes to do a transfer”. I just don’t see it and would like to know actual facts that support these statements.
Customer buys Glock 19 at LGS for $499 (the minimum advertised price that Glock /inc allows) PLUS sales tax. The dealer makes about $60 gross profit on the sale.
vs
Doing a transfer for $25

Which would you prefer?;)


Edited to add:
I just ended the FOURTH phone call of the day from the SAME person. Unbelievably, the same guy sent me FOUR emails today as well!
The first call was to ask "is it there yet?" )It wasn't.
The second was to ask if it was "okay to pick it up at 830pm" when he was told I was only available 5-8pm today.
The third was to call and ask "how about 430pm" again I told him "5-8PM".
The fourth call was to confirm his email where he said he would be here at 6pm.:banghead:

Despite being given detailed, easy to understand instructions on how to pick up his firearm, including a Google map to my home.....he didn't read anything beyond "Your firearm has arrived..."

I fully understand why some gun stores refuse to do transfers. This guy may be a really nice guy, but I don't need $10 that bad.:(
 
Last edited:
Are you saying that I'm wrong?:scrutiny:
Seriously, for someone that isn't a dealer and has never done a firearm transfer you have some nerve to dispute what I wrote. You most certainly don't know jack squat about MY transfer business.

Monday-Saturday I spend at least 45 minutes each day opening boxes and logging in firearms............that's plural, meaning more than one and on average eight a day.

Sigh...We obviously are not communicating correctly on this point. I'm not disputing the fact that you spend 45-60 minutes opening and logging in firearms. I'm, simply asking how long does it take to open and log (on average) a firearm. So, if your 45-60 minutes involves 10 guns, that would mean, per firearm, you spend 4.5 to 6 minutes opening and logging a firearm. What I am missing from your data (which again, I'm very appreciative that you're sharing this info), is how many firearms are involved. From my observations, to open a box with one gun and to log that gun takes about 5 minutes. If I had 10 boxes, I would estimate that it would take 50 minutes to open and log all 10 guns. When I get my metrics for doing transfers, part of the data is the amount of time it takes to open a log a gun. I need to use the time per gun (5 minutes), not the time I spend each day opening and logging all guns (50 minutes).

I don't know who you are quoting, I didn't make that statement in red. :rolleyes:

I was quoting myself (in the same manner you did to point out that I had misread what you said ;)). That was the question I asked and the answer I got was 45-60 minutes for firearms.

No, If I made $200 an hour I would quit my teaching job. Simply collecting $200 in fees in sixty minutes doesn't mean someone earns $200 an hour.....that's just ridiculous.

My whole point in bringing up a monetary example was to show a rate of return (based on an extrapolated rate). Based on business process analysis (as an example), if a transfer (from start to end) takes 6 minutes, and a business gets $20 per transfer, then the value of doing transfers is $200 an hour. That doesn't mean the business will realized that full rate all the time (i.e. there may not be 40 hours a week per employee full of transfers). But it does mean the business makes a gross profit of $200 for every hour that transfers are done. If the overall net profit is higher than the net profit for doing other sales, the business should work to maximize the number of transfers they are doing so they CAN realize the full rate.

My business process analysis suggests that the most transfers I could do in a standard 40 hour work week would be 90 (initially). In my market analysis, the data suggests that I could maintain 10 transfers a week at $25 per transfer. That's $250 a week. $2250 a week if I can max out. However, maxing out is too difficult to do to worth me quitting my day job. Don't get me wrong, I would love the extra $250 a week and those 10 transfers a week could be done outside of my normal job hours, but there are many other factors right now that make it difficult for me to start that business. :(

Since I have no employees, this is irrelevant to my business.
I was using employee loosely to mean someone doing work for a business. Regardless of semantics, I'm trying to be broad in the discussion and not limit it to just kitchen table or brick and mortar. :)

Well, yeah, pretty nearly every transfer involves my customer asking me (via phone or email) to send my FFL to the seller.
See, that's one thing I didn't take into account that is related to an actual transfer. Thanks.

Occasionally I get a mystery gun.....no shipper ID, no buyer ID. Then I get to play internet detective.

I get 15-20 phone calls and 30-40 emails a day that are firearms business related.

That's good to know and something that adds to the cost of doing business for sure.

Customer buys Glock 19 at LGS for $499 (the minimum advertised price that Glock /inc allows) PLUS sales tax. The dealer makes about $60 gross profit on the sale.
vs
Doing a transfer for $25

Which would you prefer?;)

Well, the answer isn't that simple. How much time was put into selling the Glock? How long did you have money tied up in the Glock waiting for it to sell? Would you have lost a sale because you did a transfer instead? What are the net profits?

I'm not saying it's better to do a transfer than to make other sales. If I can make a NET profit by selling a Glock that is higher than the NET profit of doing a transfer and if there is a conflict between the two (I can do only one or the other due to some constraint), then by all means, I'll sell Glock and turn away the transfer (I would prefer to do both). But how many gun shops have 100% conflict where doing transfers would interrupt higher profit (net) gun sales all the time (this does not mean every minute is spent selling guns. I do realize that even 2 hours of down time spread across an 8 hour day may not allow for doing transfers)? If it doesn't happen all the time, a good business owner should be able to mitigate them, allowing the business to do both. If in fact, the business is so busy that guns are being sold so much that there's not time for transfers, maybe it's time to expand.

Despite being given detailed, easy to understand instructions on how to pick up his firearm, including a Google map to my home.....he didn't read anything beyond "Your firearm has arrived..."

I fully understand why some gun stores refuse to do transfers. This guy may be a really nice guy, but I don't need $10 that bad.:(

Fair enough. But I would assume that you wouldn't stop doing transfers just because of the few people who are like that?
 
Last edited:
I just ended the FOURTH phone call of the day from the SAME person. Unbelievably, the same guy sent me FOUR emails today as well!
The first call was to ask "is it there yet?" )It wasn't.
The second was to ask if it was "okay to pick it up at 830pm" when he was told I was only available 5-8pm today.
The third was to call and ask "how about 430pm" again I told him "5-8PM".
The fourth call was to confirm his email where he said he would be here at 6pm.

This is a great example of what some suggested I meant by having coordinated a sale with an FFL. Nope, of course not. But if the OP had done more than wait for "weeks" to finalize the sale, then, again, there would have been less miscommunication and more understanding.

Second, this is EXACTLY the kind of customer that many in retail have to put up with. His kind if business isn't worth the effort. I've been in retail off and on over 40 years, and the above is the kind of thing that has been growing exponentially for a decade. It's entirely a "I WANT IT NOW!" immature shopping experience.

It's also the kind of stuff that clogs the email system, which backs up response time even more, and why so many in business are now bailing out of that communication method because it's extremely labor intensive. "YOU HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THE LAST THREE EMAILS I SENT TODAY!" is blatantly overdoing it. Pure harassment on the senders part.

Let's not so easily overlook the numbers of FFL's that now remain in the circuit - it was all too readily glossed over. We lost about 200,000 of them, it's now down to less than 65,000. And while some might find ads on one internet brokerage site, the reality is that ads aren't posted in mass media. Very few in the classified, no window posters in 12" letters, etc. It shouldn't be necessary to mention it, most social websites and similar media prohibit the mention of a firearms transfer.

If someone insists I have to boot up my computer or have the instant access to a smart phone (and the $500 a year it costs) then I can only conclude you don't mind seeing sales restricted to only those who can afford it. If your sales and transfers are limited to word of mouth, great, but there is no way someone outside that network of mutual backscratchers gets the word out to new buyers. It's limited, again, by having zero notice to the public. And the public in this case shouldn't have to jump thru hoops if the FFL is really wanting to do transfers, right? His store would be the first one recommended up front. And that only happens if he advertises thru mass media.

A quick drive by of the major LGS in my area - NO notification of whether they take on any FFL internet transfers. In fact, the one guy locally who does for me doesn't even advertise he IS an FFL. His inventory and visible business would seem to be C&R based. There are no modern firearms whatsoever in the store.

On the other hand, walk into the other LGS locally and it's been my experience that the store clerk mentioned by the OP works there - they brusquely avoid the conversation and steer it toward generating an immediate cash sale. If you buy, sell, and trade guns all day it's no wonder an FFL will be happy to handle your business, but the public walking in unannounced aren't getting those privileges extended to them. With the loss of 200,000 kitchen table FFL's, the average guy no longer has a friend who knows someone. He has to deal with a storefront dealer and that operation want's a bigger piece of the pie in an intensively competitive shopping environment.

For all he knows you would email him and call half a dozen times daily until it arrives, only to show up and hour early and hound him. Which is exactly what happens in the retail environment I work: "The part will be here at 3PM." At 11:30, the customer arrives, leaves disappointed, and demands you call him when it arrives, all the while not paying attention to the long line of customers who will take up so much of your time that a return call isn't going to happen.

What I'm reading are a large number of consumers demanding they be handled with Nordstrum class service from a business that can't deliver chauffered pick up and delivery at an appointed hour. It's entitlement elitism, and it's what is making the retail industry more difficult daily for those with some experience still left in it - because we somehow dodged the ACA getting us fired to be replaced by two part timers with little to no training or motivation.

If you want to suggest that your specific situation is the norm, it's not, and the industry isn't reaching out to the internet buyer who's unknown to them. It's a restricted access system now, just what the BATF wanted, and suggesting there's no problem means that some of you are getting used to the pot getting warmer.

200,000 less FFL's is now affecting the market, and there very much is a industry wide reluctance to handle internet transfers.
 
I think part of the problem with these transfer fee discussions is that most of us believe it is an injustice that we have to go through someone with an FFL in the first place in order to purchase a firearm. We’re not happy that the government is forcing this on us, which makes us very sensitive when we feel we’re also being charged too much (true or not). Since it is the law I’m happy I have some good people to do the transfers for me, but I’m still not happy about the unnecessary cost of being forced to involve you in the first place.

As the consumer, we should be careful to direct our ire at the lawmakers (and voters who put them there), not the gun shop owners, who are mostly really good people.

As the gun shop owner, please keep in mind that we consumers are already angry that we can’t have the gun shipped to our door. Most other businesses don’t have the opportunity to charge a fee to transfer a competitor’s product to the local consumer. Try to avoid the sense that you are penalizing us for not buying the gun from you when we need a transfer. (I don't think most do this, but I've seen/heard that attitude from a few) Then hopefully we can keep our anger directed at the right people.
 
Very well said Gregaw.

It's a bad system that we're all forced into. I completely agree that a LGS should be fairly compensated for their time and effort, but they do need to remember that if not for this bad law, a lot of people who are just coming in for a transfer wouldn't even set foot in the store otherwise. What other business has (to some extent) government mandated foot traffic? My advise would be that LGSs take this as an opportunity to turn a transfer into a customer.
 
This is exactly my experience as well. As long as I will coordinate schedule, all is well. He is a nice guy and enjoyable to talk to
 
Tirod
Quote:
I just ended the FOURTH phone call of the day from the SAME person. Unbelievably, the same guy sent me FOUR emails today as well!
The first call was to ask "is it there yet?" )It wasn't.
The second was to ask if it was "okay to pick it up at 830pm" when he was told I was only available 5-8pm today.
The third was to call and ask "how about 430pm" again I told him "5-8PM".
The fourth call was to confirm his email where he said he would be here at 6pm.

This is a great example of what some suggested I meant by having coordinated a sale with an FFL.
It WAS coordinated.......but there are some people that just refuse to follow simple instructions.:D



Second, this is EXACTLY the kind of customer that many in retail have to put up with. His kind if business isn't worth the effort. I've been in retail off and on over 40 years, and the above is the kind of thing that has been growing exponentially for a decade. It's entirely a "I WANT IT NOW!" immature shopping experience.
Exactly. I have a soccer game tonight so I'm not available this afternoon/evening to do transfers. But did that stop one guy from coming over anyway? Of course not. I didn't get to the door fast enough so he called me...."Hey Tom, I know your email said you weren't available anytime Wednesday, but since I'm going out of town tomorrow I just wanted to make sure you weren't available this afternoon". :banghead: It's difficult to not just say "Are you an idiot?"





It's also the kind of stuff that clogs the email system, which backs up response time even more, and why so many in business are now bailing out of that communication method because it's extremely labor intensive. "YOU HAVEN'T RESPONDED TO THE LAST THREE EMAILS I SENT TODAY!" is blatantly overdoing it. Pure harassment on the senders part.
How true. I don't need tracking info on packages, I don't need daily updates on your packages progress through the UPS/FedEx/USPS system,. I don't need a heads up that your gun will arrive today nor is "FYI FedEx shows it in Paducah"............I'll know your gun has arrived when I pick up the box.

Add those incessant "Obama's Secret Plan to Ban Guns", "Obama Secret Presidential Order Banning Ammunition" and the like......it's caused me to add one customer to my spam list.

Let's not so easily overlook the numbers of FFL's that now remain in the circuit - it was all too readily glossed over. We lost about 200,000 of them, it's now down to less than 65,000.
We didn't lose any gun dealers.....what was lost was 100,000 guys who LIED on their FFL application. Either they couldn't legally conduct business at their premises, weren't in possession of business permits or sales tax certificates or they were using their FFL for personal use instead of operating as a business.

It's a bit of a stretch to say those guys were "lost". They were cheats who got caught.




And while some might find ads on one internet brokerage site, the reality is that ads aren't posted in mass media. Very few in the classified, no window posters in 12" letters, etc. It shouldn't be necessary to mention it, most social websites and similar media prohibit the mention of a firearms transfer.
Seriously, who finds it impossible to find a dealer to do a transfer?
There are umpteen websites that will show you everyone in your own zipcode.


If someone insists I have to boot up my computer or have the instant access to a smart phone (and the $500 a year it costs) then I can only conclude you don't mind seeing sales restricted to only those who can afford it.
Sorry, but I have never heard anyone use that as an excuse. It's pretty funny.:rolleyes:



If your sales and transfers are limited to word of mouth, great, but there is no way someone outside that network of mutual backscratchers gets the word out to new buyers. It's limited, again, by having zero notice to the public. And the public in this case shouldn't have to jump thru hoops if the FFL is really wanting to do transfers, right? His store would be the first one recommended up front. And that only happens if he advertises thru mass media.
Are you serious? :scrutiny: I suppose you think a newspaper ad or a Yellow Pages ad is effective?



With the loss of 200,000 kitchen table FFL's, the average guy no longer has a friend who knows someone. He has to deal with a storefront dealer and that operation want's a bigger piece of the pie in an intensively competitive shopping environment.
Horsehockey.
"Kitchen table" dealers outnumber brick & mortar dealers by a wide margin.







200,000 less FFL's is now affecting the market, and there very much is a industry wide reluctance to handle internet transfers.
Absolute malarkey.
Let us know how you think 99.9999999% of Gunbroker transactions are handled. :rolleyes:
 
NoVA Shooter .... What other business has (to some extent) government mandated foot traffic?
Well off the top of my head:
Alcoholic Beverages-"State Stores" where liquor sales are controlled directly by the state. In other states only those stores with a beer, wine or liquor permit can sell those items.
Cigarettes- some states regulate those sales
Car "Safety" Inspections- can only be done in authorized locations.

There's more..........
 
I think part of the problem with these transfer fee discussions is that most of us believe it is an injustice that we have to go through someone with an FFL in the first place in order to purchase a firearm. We’re not happy that the government is forcing this on us, which makes us very sensitive when we feel we’re also being charged too much (true or not). Since it is the law I’m happy I have some good people to do the transfers for me, but I’m still not happy about the unnecessary cost of being forced to involve you in the first place.

As the consumer, we should be careful to direct our ire at the lawmakers (and voters who put them there), not the gun shop owners, who are mostly really good people.

+100

Well off the top of my head:
Alcoholic Beverages-"State Stores" where liquor sales are controlled directly by the state. In other states only those stores with a beer, wine or liquor permit can sell those items.

Those are states though, not Federal. WA used to do that, we just recently voted that system out. Now the tax is too high and people buy it from OR (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444772804577621673117805522). People drive down to Portland to buy smokes and go on shopping trips too.

That's all tax stuff though.

Contrary to what Bloomberg would have you believe though, you can't legally go buy a handgun in OR as a WA resident, even if you pass the background check. Even if you actually report the purchase to WA and pay the usage tax. I'm not sure how that makes any sense.
 
Last edited:
Well off the top of my head:
Alcoholic Beverages-"State Stores" where liquor sales are controlled directly by the state. In other states only those stores with a beer, wine or liquor permit can sell those items.
Cigarettes- some states regulate those sales
Car "Safety" Inspections- can only be done in authorized locations.

There's more..........

Why so confrontational? I never said it was the only one. The question was rhetorical in order to demonstrate the rarity of the situation.

Also, none of those examples require you to go to a 3rd party store to finish the purchase you've made with another vendor. Yes, if I want to buy alcohol or cigarettes, I have to go to a store (for the most part). But as there is a need to involve a vendor (regardless if that vendor is online or a brick and mortar store), the functional process of buying the product remains the same. I don't buy cigarettes from Walmart then have to go to Costco to finish the transaction. With guns, we are force to go to a third party that has nothing to do with the actual sale.

As for car safety inspections, that's a physical service that has to be done in person, regardless if there was authorized locations or not (plus, I don't get an inspection from one vendor and then have to go to a second vendor to complete it). Apples and oranges...

Even if you can think up a dozen legitimate examples, it's still insignificant compared to how many business DON'T. Quite honestly, I'm not going to waste my time thinking of one as it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Regardless of how many other example you may come up with, the original point stands; LGSs get government mandated foot traffic, some of which would have never stepped inside the store if not for the law. LGSs should view that as an opportunity, not a burden.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top