Bad Guys are heavily armed in Houston

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The last sentence of your original post was WAY out of line, especially for a moderator. How dare you suggest that this man should be torturing himself over the death of his daughter and assigning himself blame?!!!!
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That's not exactly what I said. I didn't say he should be torturing himself. I said I wonder if he does.

I know that I would be retracing my decisions far, far back down the path that lead me and my family to that moment and analyzing what I could have done differently.

I believe it is a very legitimate and serious question to face as we work to reduce our chances of facing death at the hands of violent people.

The question is not "what did he do to deserve this?"

The question is, "what could he have done to avoid this?"

I do believe there is an object lesson for us in this. I am not casting blame nor passing judgment.

The man who gets killed for the Rolex he wore did not deserve to die. The man whose daughter was killed for his expensive rims did not earn her death. But in both cases choices the victims made influenced the outcome of their lives.

You cannot blame the victim, but you can learn from them.
 
Treat the criminals here like they're treated in some other countries and maybe it would be ok to work hard and buy nice things for yourself and your family without having to worry about some bad boy taking them from you. I'm telling you, there would be a lot fewer criminals if the punishment was a little more severe.
 
I think there is misinterpretation of what Sam meant.

Look: Do you recall the murder of Michael Jordan's father? The murderers were quoted--approximately--as saying, "He shouldn't have been driving that fancy car and wearing that gold jewelry. He asked for it."

And this was on an Interstate highway in Florida, and not in any area where one would commonly expect an assault. But, that's what this world is coming to.

And anybody who has such a loss of a loved one as was described earlier in this thread will inevitably do the "What if...?" thing. Inevitably. "Maybe..." "If only..." That will go on for years...
 
First, my prayers are with this man and his family.

I have had to deal with the situation of shepherding kids into the van for several years now and I am always open to new ideas. Let's keep this thread going with positive input.

When we go out, my children and I put our shoes on at the front door which has a storm door on the outside of it. With the main door open and storm door locked, I can get a good view of the front yard, driveway, vehicles and a good bit of our street. We have had some recent armed robberies in our neighborhood lately, so I am taking more time on this initial observation/awareness issue. If things look good, we go on. And my children know that I keep a weapon on me and to be alert for strangers and exercise some caution on their part. (God, please let them have learned those lessons!!!!)

For myself, I'm fortunate that three of my four children can walk to the van and get themselves buckled in their carseats. This frees my mind and hands up tremendously. The baby is carried in my left (non-dominant) hand and my right hand is always free. If I absolutely have to carry anymore things like diaper bags, coats, etc, the non-essentials (aka non-children!) are carried in the right hand so they can be dropped aside quickly and without second thought. I have trained myself to get the baby strapped in mostly by feel now, so I can look around and be aware of the other kids and our surroundings. Our routine for getting into the van is pretty rigid around here, too: everybody goes to the van and gets in their seats; nobody runs around or jumps in the front seat or anything like that. This allows me to pretty well know where my children are and the most likely "open areas" for good shooting, should that happen.

Children loading/unloading is more difficult out and about, but we still try to work things the same way. The one constant is having my dominant hand free for the most part. For you guys that do the same, doesn't your left arm get tired! :)

In general around here, we aren't very flashy people. I leave my nice lawn equipment locked up when not in use, we put our big boxes (tv, dvd players, etc.) in the trash can and not out in plain sight. Our vehicles are plain jane - beat up work truck, average mini van. I also tend to be somewhat of an abrasive and stand-off-ish person concerning strangers coming onto my property - salesman especially! I try to make eye contact and take notice of suspicious people and definitely do not let anybody near my children or vehicle or inside my home unless I know them.

As far as toolset goes, I have changed firearms a few times, but I always keep as my primary defensive arm a full-sized pistol, carried either IWB or OWB strong side hip and a back-up in the ManBag (Maxpedition Fatboy) for consistency. The draw and presentation of the firearm is something that has been practiced many, many times and will continue to be practiced.

These are just some things that we do around here to make life a little safer. I have been carrying a firearm and corralling kids for six years now (which in no way makes me anything of an expert!) and my methods have changed and been modified as needed. I hope this helps somebody out there on THR. Most of the advice I have given has been learned here in the past.
 
I agree with the OP in his thinking. You don't know what threat you are going to face. If threats were predictable, we would avoid them entirely. Since you don't know what you will face, you cannot make assumptions that your training and gear will be adequate.

And yes, this is why I tell people to use the biggest handgun you can handle, because they are all too small, and in telling yourself that very small handguns are 'better than nothing', you are rationalizing making an inferior solution worse.

I do keep a rifle in my vehicle whenever I can, but in my case it's not really often, since I frequently go onto military posts. If I think I MIGHT need to go onto a post on any given day, I can't take any guns. I agree that something like am M-1 carbine is probably the ideal car carbine, (Just like I think it's the ideal HD gun,) but mine is a family heirloom Inland, and I don't want to lose it after an argument with a local cop who doesn't know the law. What I use instead is my Tapcoed SKS with the Tech-Sight, it is rugged and reliable, if I NEEDED to fire into another vehicle it will do plenty of damage, and if it did get 'held' either as evidence or in resolution of a decision with a cop over a point of law, I wouldn't feel too bad and it is replaced pretty easily.

A car rifle/carbine will not solve every situation. MOST armed encounters will end before you could feasibly employ a rifle. But if it is true that you don't know WHAT will happen or HOW it will happen, it is not good sense to rule out needing ANY given tool. If a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place, then you should have a rifle to fight back to.

There is a guy in my unit so enamoured of the FN 5-7, he won't be dissuaded. I remind him that he thinks a pistol can do a rifle's job. The 5-7 might penetrate better than MOST pistols, but he doesn't have access to the ammo to make it do the most good, and if he were to use the carbine version, it isn't nearly as effective as an AR anyway.

And don't assume that the bad guy won't kill you if you comply. Ever.
 
Buddy System

"what could he have done to avoid this?"
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Buddy system. The area this happened is in or very close to Greenspoint AKA Gunspoint so it seems like violent crime might be higher there than in other neighborhoods.

Should you find yourself in a bad neighborhood and cannot maintain effective situational awareness because you are watching or herding the kids then a buddy system seems like a good idea. Using a buddy system one of you maintains situational awareness while the other does the same but also watches and herds the kids as required.
 
Rifles, pistols... it wouldn't have helped very much.

Situational awareness and an armored vehicle is what they really needed to pull away from such situation.
 
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I'm with Ranger, maybe others, you need to back this all up to before the encounter & review situation awareness issues. Not to armchair QB but one's radar needs to be properly tuned & running.
 
I think even with a handgun survival in this case is not too likely.
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Why? At some point the rifle was pointed at the family rather than the dad. I would have blown that murderer's brains out so fast it would make his head spin.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... Winning requires confidence in yourself. You can't walk around exuding a defeatist attitude and expect to win. You become less likely to win by planning for defeat. The only defeat I plan for is that of the bad guy.
 
Why? At some point the rifle was pointed at the family rather than the dad
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From what I could make from the article, the rifle was not the only weapon in the robbery.

Two gunmen, one armed with an AK-47, approached Charissa's family members as they were getting into their car and demanded the car keys.
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The third suspect is described as in his mid-20s
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So apparently there were three BGs (the article isn't very clear), the article mentions two "gunmen" and a third suspect so three bad people with at least two firearms vs one man who was blindsided. So maybe drawing and firing at the guy with the rifle would have got him a .32 in the ear from the second BG. And maybe the guy with the rifle, mortally wounded, would have still managed to shoot into the vehicle.

By the time the threat was in his face, he was in a losing situation, no matter what he could have been armed with. Even if he was an IPSC gun-fu champion and putting bullets in all of them in .5 sec was feasible, what guarantees immediate incapacitation? I am not saying that fighting back would be wrong, but expecting to come out unscathed under any circumstance is kind of wishful thinking. Sometimes the good guys lose miserably and there is nothing to do about it.
 
There was a third man and he has gone on record that he will not be taken alive.
Capital murder in Texas means death row with a practical certainty that Texas will carry out the sentence or life without a prayer of a chance for parole.
But to get back on the subject.
That area is very dense with apartment complexes with a dense human population and people walking around all over the place.
Sure one can be aware of their surroundings and all that jazz but you cant be 100 per cent all the time and I would not be surprised if these dudes came on that family so fast there was little or no time to react.
One thing is for sure though and that is the father did not move fast enough for these pukes so they took it upon themselves to open fire.
It's just a small matter of time before the third member is killed or captured.
Car jackings and home invasions are getting very common in Houston.
May that little child rest in peace and her murderers face swift justice.
A lot of people here have been very angered by this senseless killing.
 
Low profile is a good tactic. Cheap watch, modest clothes, modest wheels, absence of inflammatory/polarizing/revealing bumper stickers, all help keep you below the radar. Which is right where I like to be. As with SA, carrying a concealed defensive handgun, and advanced training, this man did not see the need, as many (most?) in our society do not see the need. They are maybe more trusting and less likely to recognize dangers of every day living today than many of us who frequent this forum. They think we are paranoid, we think they are naive. Many of us came to feel this way because of an event that scared or alarmed us. In this poor man's case, it was just REALLY bad the first time. I feel for him, and his actions and level of awareness put him in what I think may be the middle of the bell curve for Americas citizens. I doubt he still resides there. But he sounds like a normal caring father in Houston Texas to me who was a victim of some unusually well armed/vicious criminals.

Steve
 
Heavily armed criminals in Houston, apparently.

Now confirmed by one of my friends.

We were talking about this tragic incident near Gunspoint (Greenspoint) in Houston. He then related something that happened to him and his wife at the Marquee Entertainment Complex ( I10 near I610 in Houston) earlier after an evening movie. I go to this place quite a lot, unlike Gunspoint Mall where I have stayed away since the female armed deputy sheriff was abducted and murdered about 15 years ago.

He and his wife were leaving the movie with everyone else from the movie and were heading into the parking garage, when everyone just froze. Two men were robbing an unoccupied car in the garage. One man doing the robbing the other guarding the robbery with a very visible sawed off shotgun.

Everyone just started backing up and away from the BMV.

The perps left on there own and nothing else happened other than the guard showing up after it was over to take statements.

So we have a AK47 and now a sawed off shotgun (I assume a 12 gage) multiple BG's and now one acting as pure protection.

Here everybody acted properly, backed away and no one was hurt.

In the other situation with the AK 47, I think somebody was going to get hurt regardless, sometimes bad things happen. Maybe if the father had been armed, they would have killed him and not his kid, and he might have gotten one or two of them in the shootout.

But D. I just was never figuring the BG, were so heavily armed and in numbers. My shooting is going to need to improve.
 
Bad guys use situational awareness too.
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Like all predators, they are masters of it.

They know when the last police car passed the block, and probably about how long until it will pass again.
They know how to blend into their surroundings until the trap is sprung.
They know how to set up someone to willingly enter their target zone.
They are keyed into who is a worthwhile target and who isn't.
They are presciently attuned to who will probably submit instantly and who might give them trouble.

They saw that car with its flashy, expensive, easily resold rims the day before, or the week before, (you don't bring a RIFLE to a "crime of opportunity"), and had decided that they were going to take it, when they were going to take it, and probably even had an idea of just how much resistance they'd put up with before shooting.

How "situationally aware" do you have to be to remain a step ahead of such predators? It isn't unrealistic to surmise that if they REALLY want you, chances are they'll get you -- regardless of how often you check your "six." So at least part of the object is to avoid becoming someone of interest in the first place.

What things can we do to decrease our chances of having to draw to a drawn gun (props to the "go down shooting" crowd)?

I had a buddy back in Baltimore who had a little sign he kept on his dash that read, "NO RADIO -- DOOR IS UNLOCKED." He was just tired of replacing the driver's window every time some fine upstanding person felt the need to check and see if maybe there was a nice stereo in there that could be quickly converted into something smokable, snortable, or injectable.

Surely there must be balances -- few of us live without a radio in their car, or live in a place where that kind of extreme reactionary precaution would be beneficial -- but there might be a kind of "zen" wisdom in it after all.

I don't really have any answers to these questions. I'm just trying to get something out of this story besides, "sometimes things suck and you (or your kids) die." :(
 
and my main carry piece is a Glock 22 with 3 15 round mags of winchester ranger 180gr BJHP
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Nick,

The Glock 22 is a good one. Very capable.

But can you keep an unloaded rifle in your car? And do they consider a loaded magazine, even if not in the gun, to be defacto loaded?

A short SKS rifle in say a lawn chair bag with a few stripper clips might do. Or even just a ghost ring sighted pump 12 with a youth stock in such a bag. Might have to have the ammo kept separate though.

If not any long gun, then I'd do a fair amount of long range practice from the prone position with your Glock 22.
 
Deaf Smith said:
A short SKS rifle in say a lawn chair bag with a few stripper clips might do.
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This is an interesting suggestion.
How do you see deploying that rifle or shotgun?
Under what circumstances would having a rifle in your car be of value?
How will you get to it if you need it?
Do you plan to retreive, load, shoulder, and fire it from inside the car?
Would it be something you'd only use if you had time and reason to exit the vehicle and set up a firing position somewhere else?
What kind of threat and scenario would give you that opportunity?
Would having an SKS and some ammo in a lawnchair bag in the trunk or back seat (if legal) have helped the gentleman in the original story?
 
This is an interesting suggestion.
How do you see deploying that rifle or shotgun?
Under what circumstances would having a rifle in your car be of value?
How will you get to it if you need it?
Do you plan to retreive, load, shoulder, and fire it from inside the car?
Would it be something you'd only use if you had time and reason to exit the vehicle and set up a firing position somewhere else?
What kind of threat and scenario would give you that opportunity?
Would having an SKS and some ammo in a lawnchair bag in the trunk or back seat (if legal) have helped the gentleman in the original story?
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imho opinion unless you absoultly have no other option the time spent deploying a rifle from the trunk or back seat of your car could just as easily have been used to escape the scene. inside a car imho a rifle is far to cumberome a weapon to be used effectively. on the other hand if the car was being used as cover and the rifle used to keep the bad guys at a distance.

personally for a car gun i'd prefer a glock 17L and a few 33 rd mags loaded with +p rds. any shortcomings it would have as far as accuracy and power compared to the rifle it would make up for it with speed of deployment, and quick follow up shots and ease of mobility should you need to relocate to areas of cover that may be to tight to effectivley use a rifle.
 
I'm not going to outright claim that the father had no right to own the rims, or that somehow the crime is his fault for doing so, but the purchase of an expensive, flashy, useless item, especially in lieu of basic necessities like protection and skill, is indicative of a poor mindset.

I'll even go so far as to relate it so firearms. The owner of a functional but ugly Glock, vs. a nickle-plated Jennings. The frame on my Kimber is currently worn to bare metal everywhere my hand touches.

If you're going to display wealth but not have the know-how to protect it then you bear some of the blame. I forgot who said it but "There are no victims, only volunteers."

The argument about the short skirt and the rape is fine but here is an alternative.

Every now and then some fool climbs into a bear cage and gets eaten. No one point and blames the bear because it is nothing more than a "dumb animal", it's a predator. Well, guess what? Some people out there may be Homo Sapien but they sure aren't human. Some of them are simply "dumb animals".

I'll not be the idiot climbing into the bear cage, and I'll not be the idiot who is incapable of protecting myself. It's about priorities, and his were clearly in the wrong place.
 
Situational awareness is only part of the equation. Proper training is the other part. Criminals prey on unaware people. If you have expensive/nice things you should always think that someone might want them. I said ak pistol because it has fear factor built in. They are short and easy to manuver in a vehicle( maybe not a VW beatle). A cut down double barrel has that fear factor built in, but lacks firepower(# of shots). Armed people tend to exude an aire about themselves and are less likly to be picked as targets. Come out shot the rifle toter and the others will probably flee, if not shot the other gun weilder and if the unarmed one stays around I guess he's out of luck.
 
NSP64 said:
Situational awareness is only part of the equation. Proper training is the other part. Criminals prey on unaware people...

...Armed people tend to exude an aire about themselves and are less likly to be picked as targets...
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Exactly!

Not behaving like prey or a victim is incredibly important. If you act like a sheep don't be surprised if the wolf wants to eat you. Wolves don't like sheep they can't figure out or that they think will put up a fight. Just acting a little different with for example your head on a swivel (situational awareness), one hand in a pocket that has a bulge (bad guy doesn't know what it is), confidence, etc. can go a long way to keeping some of the wolves away.
 
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