I was cleaning it and it went off!
- Thread starter Father Knows Best
- Start date
- Status
Well, no humans on this site do, apparently.
Saaaay, I seem to recall some AD/ND stories around here, and no one was calling for the poster to shoot himself. I guess as long as we don't kill someone, we're allowed to be human. Otherwise, we can stone someone to death.
It's a statistical inevitability that a mistake each and everyone of you have made COULD HAVE cost someone (or you) your life. It's something to always remember when a tragedy like this occurs. It could have been you, even if you're too arrogant to admit it.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Won't Happen To Me
While I cannot promise that I'll never have an AD or ND, I can guarantee you that this senario won't happen to me.
I don't load my guns and play with them.
I don't pick up my rifle and point it in random directions, pretending to pick off bad guys. Or trophy deer.
I don't pull a sidearm from the safe and sweep the room, playing Dirty Harry.
Zero_DgZ and Father Knows Best pretty much nailed it.
Reckless endangerment. Manslaughter.
"I was cleaning it?"
I'm gonna bet that if the forensic dudes took their little laser pointer (they all have them -- haven't you watched CSI?) and traced the line through the two walls (piece of cake, there are at least two holes, The bullet traveled through at least two walls, remember) the re-created trajectory would clearly show the shot was fired from a shouldered standing position, not sitting. Child's play.
At which point, the "guns are dangerous" becomes "idiots playing with guns are dangerous."
Would anyone like to bet whether they'll actually try to re-create the trajectory?
While I cannot promise that I'll never have an AD or ND, I can guarantee you that this senario won't happen to me.
I don't load my guns and play with them.
I don't pick up my rifle and point it in random directions, pretending to pick off bad guys. Or trophy deer.
I don't pull a sidearm from the safe and sweep the room, playing Dirty Harry.
Zero_DgZ and Father Knows Best pretty much nailed it.
Reckless endangerment. Manslaughter.
"I was cleaning it?"
I'm gonna bet that if the forensic dudes took their little laser pointer (they all have them -- haven't you watched CSI?) and traced the line through the two walls (piece of cake, there are at least two holes, The bullet traveled through at least two walls, remember) the re-created trajectory would clearly show the shot was fired from a shouldered standing position, not sitting. Child's play.
At which point, the "guns are dangerous" becomes "idiots playing with guns are dangerous."
Would anyone like to bet whether they'll actually try to re-create the trajectory?
AStone
Member
I'm with FKB on this one in agreeing with Zero_DgZ. It's almost inconceivable to me how to even begin cleaning a loaded gun (at least one of mine). Cleaning one of mine loaded is just a physical impossibility. (Of course, it could have simply been that he was beginning to clean it, clicked the trigger without checking first ... but that's still just a violation of the four rules...)
It would be instructive to find out what kind of gun was involved here.
___________
Oh, and about Darwin. Read this.
As it turns out, his ideas weren't "wrong", just incomplete, and unable to fully explain biological evolution (says one with advanced degrees in evolutionary biology). His ideas on natural selection were (to borrow a phrase from mathematics), "necessary but insufficient." Biology is now improving on Darwin's seminal, pioneering (genius) views with new models of evolution that add volumes to what we know about evolution.
But that's fodder for another thread, some other day...
ilcylic
Member
Manedwolf++: I usually look, but I admit there have been times I've counted on "knowing" the extractor would empty the chamber.
Gbro: Those pictures are scary. So that blown out piece of brass was basically blast formed to expand the neck? Yeesh.
Telperion: That's not neccesarily accurate. I know a lot of night oriented people. If you're up until dawn every day, a lot of stuff happens "at night". Including cleaning firearms.
Gbro: Those pictures are scary. So that blown out piece of brass was basically blast formed to expand the neck? Yeesh.
Telperion: That's not neccesarily accurate. I know a lot of night oriented people. If you're up until dawn every day, a lot of stuff happens "at night". Including cleaning firearms.
RNB65
Member
I do. I typically clean guns between 2AM and 4AM. Put on a little good music (RUSH's 2112 is my fav gun cleaning CD) and go to it.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Unfortunately that won't make the papers. They will leave the story as-is just to push the anti agenda.
carpettbaggerr
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,676
Sure could. Sit up in bed, then next thing, you're talkin' to St. Pete. Anybody whose neighbor has a gun could wake up dead.
I think he meant the odds the bullet hit her at all, not that it had the energy to kill her. Two walls, not aimed, still hits her in a vital area.
Unlucky lottery, indeed.
Manedwolf
member
Glad to help with the sandbucket idea!
And yeah, you can get all you need at Lowes or Home Depot. 5 gal paint/driveway finishing bucket with lid in the paint aisle, and a bag of enough fine-grade sand in the garden department to fill it. I doubt many rounds would make it through what would be almost two feet of dense sand.
For any rifle that might need to be cleared of an unsafe situation, or for any handgun that requires pulling the trigger for dis-assembly, I'd just thought it'd be the best place to point it. The worst that could happen, then, would be ringing ears and "eau de gunsmoke", but nobody hurt and no property damage.
And yeah, you can get all you need at Lowes or Home Depot. 5 gal paint/driveway finishing bucket with lid in the paint aisle, and a bag of enough fine-grade sand in the garden department to fill it. I doubt many rounds would make it through what would be almost two feet of dense sand.
For any rifle that might need to be cleared of an unsafe situation, or for any handgun that requires pulling the trigger for dis-assembly, I'd just thought it'd be the best place to point it. The worst that could happen, then, would be ringing ears and "eau de gunsmoke", but nobody hurt and no property damage.
tanksoldier
Member
Generally speaking, in order to injure someone you have to break at least 2 rules at the same time.
The reason we have the 4 rules is because humans make mistakes. Breaking 1 rule may or may not be a mistake... breaking 2 at once is negligence.
Firearms are deadly tools, and those who own and use them need to be held accountable. Otherwise, as others have said, the antis win. If this truely could happen to any firearms owner, even a conciencious one, then firearms truely are too dangerous for the average citizen to posess.
It very well could be me someday, if I ever get that lazy or complacent. If it does happen to me I hope I have the cajones to take what I deserve like a man for my stupidity. The reason that nobody is calling on anyone here to shoot themselves is because even when they DID have a ND, they obeyed Rule #2:
Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you are not willing to destroy.
And thus no one was harmed. As I mentioned above, you usually have to violate 2 rules before you can actually hurt someone.
The reason we have the 4 rules is because humans make mistakes. Breaking 1 rule may or may not be a mistake... breaking 2 at once is negligence.
Firearms are deadly tools, and those who own and use them need to be held accountable. Otherwise, as others have said, the antis win. If this truely could happen to any firearms owner, even a conciencious one, then firearms truely are too dangerous for the average citizen to posess.
It very well could be me someday, if I ever get that lazy or complacent. If it does happen to me I hope I have the cajones to take what I deserve like a man for my stupidity. The reason that nobody is calling on anyone here to shoot themselves is because even when they DID have a ND, they obeyed Rule #2:
Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you are not willing to destroy.
And thus no one was harmed. As I mentioned above, you usually have to violate 2 rules before you can actually hurt someone.
Can I honestly say that I've never broken any of the 4 rules? No, I cannot.
Can I say that it is a VERY ingrained habit that whenever I pick up a gun, the first thing I do is point it in a safe direction and check the magazine and action to ensure the gun is in the condition (clear or loaded) that I think it is in? Yes, without question.
The whole "I was cleaning it and it went off" or "I was looking at it and I didn't know it was loaded" excuses are PURE BULLSHIP! There is NO excuse for an AD or ND. If everyone would just take the few seconds to verify the condition of every gun they pick up, ADs/NDs would be a thing of the past.
One persons stupidity got an innocent killed and gave a big black eye to us all.
He deserves what he gets.
Can I say that it is a VERY ingrained habit that whenever I pick up a gun, the first thing I do is point it in a safe direction and check the magazine and action to ensure the gun is in the condition (clear or loaded) that I think it is in? Yes, without question.
The whole "I was cleaning it and it went off" or "I was looking at it and I didn't know it was loaded" excuses are PURE BULLSHIP! There is NO excuse for an AD or ND. If everyone would just take the few seconds to verify the condition of every gun they pick up, ADs/NDs would be a thing of the past.
One persons stupidity got an innocent killed and gave a big black eye to us all.
He deserves what he gets.
Father Knows Best
Member
I have never had a ND. I know people who have. No one was injured, however, because they were observing other safety rules. For instance, I participate in cowboy action shooting. I've seen a couple of ND's there, including my own father who let one go at the loading table. His thumb slipped while trying to lower the hammer, and unfortunately he had indexed the cylinder wrong and a live round was under it. He put a .45 caliber hole in the loading table, and scared the bejeezus out of the loading table officer. No one was hurt, however, because he was observing rules 1 and 2, i.e., treating all guns as if they were loaded (he thought there was no live round under the hammer, but was careful, anyway) and keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Thus, no one was hurt.
ND's can indeed happen. There's no excuse for killing someone with an ND, however, because safe gun handling means not exposing anyone else to the risk of getting shot by your own carelessness.
ND's can indeed happen. There's no excuse for killing someone with an ND, however, because safe gun handling means not exposing anyone else to the risk of getting shot by your own carelessness.
javacodeman
Member
I was cleaning my handguns one night after going to the range. My mother-in-law was in town. She's not an anti, but I wouldn't call her a "pro" either. She just thinks they are dangerous (ah, which they are) and that as a Christian, we can trust our fate to God (to expound more on that is another thread). Anyways, apparently one of my wife's distant cousins shot himself (not fatally) about 15 years ago.
So while I'm cleaning my guns, my wife asks her mom, "How did cousin [so-and-so] shot himself?" My mother-in-law replies (you guessed it), "While cleaning his guns."
I don't say anything and keep going about my business. But I'm thinking the whole time that "cleaning the gun" must be the most often used excuse for reckless, foolish behavior that results in a gun discharge.
BTW, I was somehow able to keep myself from an ND while cleaning my gun that night.
On another note: So, a 5 gal bucket of sand will stop a bullet with only noise, smoke, and splattered sand as consequences?
java
So while I'm cleaning my guns, my wife asks her mom, "How did cousin [so-and-so] shot himself?" My mother-in-law replies (you guessed it), "While cleaning his guns."
I don't say anything and keep going about my business. But I'm thinking the whole time that "cleaning the gun" must be the most often used excuse for reckless, foolish behavior that results in a gun discharge.
BTW, I was somehow able to keep myself from an ND while cleaning my gun that night.
On another note: So, a 5 gal bucket of sand will stop a bullet with only noise, smoke, and splattered sand as consequences?
java
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Bucket Of Sand
You know, I think that's worth a range test.
Let's see, take a bucket to the range, fill with sand, fire a round, use a kitty litter scoop to locate the expended round, measure depth. Repeat with assorted calibres.
Notes: safety glasses, safety glasses, safety glasses. Oh, and ear protection.
Careful lifting that bucket when filled with sand. A large bucket of kitty litter is in the 25-30 lb range, this will be denser, so expect 50 lbs depending on bucket size.
You know, I think that's worth a range test.
Let's see, take a bucket to the range, fill with sand, fire a round, use a kitty litter scoop to locate the expended round, measure depth. Repeat with assorted calibres.
Notes: safety glasses, safety glasses, safety glasses. Oh, and ear protection.
Careful lifting that bucket when filled with sand. A large bucket of kitty litter is in the 25-30 lb range, this will be denser, so expect 50 lbs depending on bucket size.
I don't understand how a gun can "go off" when you are cleaning it. What?? Are people not opening the bolt/chamber? Are they not stripping out the gun?
Seriously, in order for the gun to discharge, the cleanee had to pull the trigger. And the ONLY WAY that it can happenly "on accident" is if you drop the hammer on an un-inspected chamber; which should never be done. I mean he broke every rule of firearm safety...
The point is that there are carless/neglegent people in the world and had he not done this, he would have done something else of similar stripe causing some other indicies to go up. :banghead:
Edit - ARFIN
I fired a .25 ACP in a bucket of sand about 1 month ago... The bullet penetrated about 4-6" in and made a hole about .75 - 1" diameter... I wouldn't recommend doing it with any other kind of caliber. If the .25 did that much, I can only imagine what a .30-06 or similar would do... I wouldn't consider that safe, unless you were in a pretty well controlled environment.
Seriously, in order for the gun to discharge, the cleanee had to pull the trigger. And the ONLY WAY that it can happenly "on accident" is if you drop the hammer on an un-inspected chamber; which should never be done. I mean he broke every rule of firearm safety...
The point is that there are carless/neglegent people in the world and had he not done this, he would have done something else of similar stripe causing some other indicies to go up. :banghead:
Edit - ARFIN
I fired a .25 ACP in a bucket of sand about 1 month ago... The bullet penetrated about 4-6" in and made a hole about .75 - 1" diameter... I wouldn't recommend doing it with any other kind of caliber. If the .25 did that much, I can only imagine what a .30-06 or similar would do... I wouldn't consider that safe, unless you were in a pretty well controlled environment.
The bucket of sand (5 gal. size) has been mentioned many times before.
Also, if you prefer a little more ambience you can get a 5 gallon or larger planter (plastic or whatever) and fill it with sand and a plastic plant.
Not only is it safe but your cats will love it too!
I agree that "cleaning guns" is used in place of "fooling around".
Also, if you prefer a little more ambience you can get a 5 gallon or larger planter (plastic or whatever) and fill it with sand and a plastic plant.
Not only is it safe but your cats will love it too!
I agree that "cleaning guns" is used in place of "fooling around".
Sistema1927
Member
Cleaning? Sure.
And I bet that puddle at his feet wasn't Hoppe's #9.
Sure.And I bet that puddle at his feet wasn't Hoppe's #9.
The planter with a plastic plant is a great idea also. It might also be wider. In a 5 gallon bucket, you need to make sure you are not holding the gun at too sharp of an angle. I would make sure you have at least 12" of deep of sand.
Another consideration might be a put a piece of brick or cinder block in the bottom of the bucket or planter. If a bullet goes through, that ought to stock it without damaging the floor. Just make sure you have enough sand.
Another consideration might be a put a piece of brick or cinder block in the bottom of the bucket or planter. If a bullet goes through, that ought to stock it without damaging the floor. Just make sure you have enough sand.
History Prof
Member
How many here have done something this stupid?
Since I asked, I'll go first. I've had two NDs in my life, both when I was young and stupid. BOTH were entirely preventable, if I had been following the rules. The second was far more stupid than the first, simply because I didn't learn from the first. I can tell you that it won't happen to me again. I do a chamber check, visual and PHYSICAL every time I pick up a gun. IT IS AVOIDABLE! "Cleaning" my arse. He was playing with it.
marksman13
Member
I've only had one ND in my life. I was twelve years old and sitting in a deer stand by myslef for the first time. I told my dad that the thirty-thirty in my hands just went off. I got my a$$ whooped!!! He knew it was an idiot mistake on my part and he was pissed that i lied. Lessons learned the hard way seem to stick.
I don't think the guy should get off scott-free, but I think criminal negligance will stick easier than something harsher like manslaughter. Just depends on how good of a lawyer he can afford. Just hope that he, and anyone in contact with him get the message that guns are tools designed to kill, and treating them like toys can get innocent people killed.
I don't think the guy should get off scott-free, but I think criminal negligance will stick easier than something harsher like manslaughter. Just depends on how good of a lawyer he can afford. Just hope that he, and anyone in contact with him get the message that guns are tools designed to kill, and treating them like toys can get innocent people killed.
- Status