Banned ammo early 1990's

[hotpig]

I sale pallets of Ranger T-Series ammo. It sales very well.

 

[44AMP]

Just some FYI

The KTW ammo was never for sale to the public. It was as described by other posters, and did have the dreaded "teflon" coating. Both the anti gun press and the media (including a totally B.S. feature in one of the Lethal Weapon films) was used to justify the ban of some "armor piercing" handgun ammo, after all, it was called "cop killers"!

Winchester Black Talon was more hype than substance, and the remark about the doctors pushing against it because of the sharp edges of jacket is true. Winchester pulled a smart marketing move, pulling the ammo from civilian sales, then renaming it and putting it back on the dealers shelves.

 

[Gordon]

The conical full metal jacket bullet pictured is an older (late 30s to early 70s) "Hiwaymaster" or other Remington or Winchester armor piercing load. They weren't that effective, really on much of anything , but were loaded to top velocity and better than round nosed lead.
The KTW was the "original Cop Killer" bullet and was a smooth profile blunt round nosed bullet and was lathe turned bronze with a Teflon coating. They were loaded to the highest possible velocity and did penetrate "2a" ballistic vests pretty well, but not anything spectacular.
Black Talon ammo is no where near as good as the latest Ranger Talon in actual terminal effect. They were pretty soft and short on penetration and tended to fragment.

 

[Moonclip]

Wasn't the KTW ammo coated with like a green teflon? The earlier pictured ammo looks like some Norma .357mag I have 125gr. It penetrates extremely well. And when did Ranger ammo stop having the black coating, I think I have some somewhere that has the black coating but is not labeled Black Talon.

I'm surprised the antis never jumped on handguns like the .30carbine Blackhawk or especially the Tokarev and CZ52 as these chamberings can penetrate quite well and the latter guns are inexpensive.

 

[brigadier]

The Ranger is an upgrade of the Black Talon. The Black Talon was never banned in the US. I could be wrong but I don't think there was ever any evidence that Winchester discontinued the round for it's reputation or fear of banning. Still to this day you can get Winchester rifle ammo with the teflon coating at Wal Mart. My understanding has always been that the Black Talon was simply replaced with a Better round and therefor rendered obsolete.

Black Talons are still with us in the form of Ranger "Law Enforcement Only" ammunition. They're not black any more, and they're much improved, performance-wise. You can occasionally hook up with a box or two at gun shows.

Law Enforcement Only? You can get it all day every day across the road from where I live (it's on sale at the moment even) and I live in the notorious Peoples Republic of California.

 

[Moonclip]

Winchester doesn't want it sold to "civilians" but it is not illegal to do so. There was a lot of media spin on BT ammo around 1993 when Win voluntarily pulled it due to bad pr and fear of legislation banning it and possibly other types of hp ammo. IIRC the big deal at the time was that a guy that shot up a San Francisco legal office with a pair of tec 9s and a Norinco 1911a1 had some bt ammo in his guns.

 

[32winspl]

Just my $.02... I think the staying power of the "desirability" of Win's Black Talon is largely in the name itself. Just look in nearly any gun mag and count how many times you see the name "Tactical" in the advertisements. That word has sold more handguns, rifles, and ammo than you can immagine. "Tactical", it seems, has come to mean something like "Almost Nuclear"!

 

[32winspl]

Carrying on with what has already been said (see posts 15, and 20), some activist medical group made claims that the black talon hollowpoint ammo opened up into 5 razor sharp petals that blazed through human flesh like a buzzsaw at 30,000 rpm's. I imagine that the bullets expanded as they were designed to, but the rest of the claims were technically true, but completely erroneous as presented. I'll explain.
Take a 230gr. 45acp with a muzzle velocity of 850 fps. Ignore the fact that it begins to lose velocity the instant it leaves the barrel, if it could actually stay in the air for a whole minute, yes, it could travel 51000 feet (612,000 inches). The rifling (1:16) would make the bullet spin, on this immaginary path, an astounding 38,250 rpm's. Lets just say that the average human torso is 12" front-to-back, and the bullet travels completely through it. The bullet, (again, disregarding any resistance) would make 3/4 of ONE revolution.
Another example of how numbers and statistics can be bent to support one's pilitical agenda.

 

[hotpig]

when did Ranger ammo stop having the black coating, I think I have some somewhere that has the black coating but is not labeled Black Talon.

Winchester stopped using the lubalux coating in 1998 when they stopped production of the Ranger SXT. It was replaced by the Ranger T-Series bullet.

 

[buzz_knox]

Carrying on with what has already been said (see posts 15, and 20), some activist medical group made claims that the black talon hollowpoint ammo opened up into 5 razor sharp petals that blazed through human flesh like a buzzsaw at 30,000 rpm's.

That group also claimed that the sharp edges of the round when expanded posed a danger to treating doctors, as they might cut the doctors. Of course, said group totally ignored the fact that many rounds shed jackets, which have sharp edges themselves, and bone fragments are a common puncture/cutting hazard, regardless of whatever causes the fragmentation.

 

[Darthbauer]

My cousin has over 50 boxes of Black Talons. Its hard to get now so he wont use what he has.

 

[tbreed725]

wasnt theyr another round that the maker actually reported as being like the endall of ammo or something rhino ammo or something like that?

 

[Cosmoline]

Good memory. I remember the brewhaha but I've never actually seen one and I suspect they're a media myth.

Here's what I found, from the early 90's and our "friends" at the cop union:

A new super bullet soon to go on sale nationally has but one purpose, ``and that's to kill someone,'' says Garth Wheeler, president of the Virginia Fraternal Order of Police.

And what he and other police officers fear is that they will be the principal targets of ``Rhino-Ammo.''

A version of the handgun bullet can pierce Kevlar, the bullet-stopping material used in police vests. Once inside the body, the bullet explodes with deadly results.

``I can see only two types of individuals wanting it,'' said Wheeler, whose organization represents 8,000 officers in Virginia, ``and that's law enforcement or criminals on the street wanting to do in law enforcement.''

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1994/vp941228/12280434.htm

Here's the inside story. Very interesting example of how the press, anti-gun advocates and law enforcement can come together to push a political agenda as news:

http://www.tpgfaq.org/sec3/gfrhno.htm

 

[Black_Talon]

Here's some 38 & 357 KTWs: