As long as you are respecting the lives and property of me and those I care about, I have no problem with how you lead your life. I seem to approach things differently than you, though. At one time, I held the view espoused by John Wayne’s character in the Shootist: "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." Now, though it is unpleasant to do so, I will let most stuff slide and just kick my ego in the nuts. I make concessions in the places I go and the things I do to avoid sticky situations with characters of ill repute. We have all heard the quote by Edmund Burke: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I agree, but I also believe it unnecessary, and possibly unwise, to pursue absolutely idealistic goals in a most decidedly non-idealistic world.abaddon said:
Bar fight I saw on video - lessons learned
- Thread starter abaddon
- Start date
- Status
abaddon
Member
bsf
I didn't mean to say that one should stand up to such people when there's the option of backing down. I just meant that there are risks in life no matter what you do. If there was something in life that I really enjoyed I wouldn't stop doing it just because it might be dangerous.
I guess my main point was to ask... given that people will go to bars and other public places where such things happen, what could a person have done in such a situation?
I didn't mean to say that one should stand up to such people when there's the option of backing down. I just meant that there are risks in life no matter what you do. If there was something in life that I really enjoyed I wouldn't stop doing it just because it might be dangerous.
I guess my main point was to ask... given that people will go to bars and other public places where such things happen, what could a person have done in such a situation?
Last edited:
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
But we do, especially those of us who have achieved old age or are committed to pursuing that goal. There are a couple of rules that John Farnham did not mention.
First, choose your own fights and choose them carefully. Part of the problem with bars is that they are places where other people can--and do--make the decision or have input into it. If you're interested in pursuing a random walk principle with respect to fights, bars are among the best places to do it. Reread the message with which you began this thread and you might see what I mean.
Second, don't get into fights unless you know for sure you can win them. Winning for old people and smart people does not mean defeating your opponent. It means emerging from the fight with your initial number of body parts, no holes that leak precious bodily fluids, nothing broken or bruised, no more opponents at the end than at the beginning, and no law enforcement officer standing on your back, hitting you over the head, or pointing anything with a hole at you. And it also means that your opponent is not maimed or dead.
Avoiding a fight means never having to say you're sorry. I heard that in a movie once.
Those rules obviously do not apply when there is no way to avoid the fight, as when the thugs enter your home while you and/or family are in it, or when they try to drag you out of your car, or in other such circumstances. Bars, saloons, watering holes, and honky tonks are not such circumstances unless you are John Wayne in front of the cameras.
Last edited:
There is a big difference between "not going to bars" and "not going to bar where fights occur." I don't go to bars that often (almost never now), but have probably been over 100 times in my life...never saw a fight.
If you do go, leave at the first sign of trouble and keep your ego in check (don't insult back, be a smart a$$). If you do get into a fight despite all that, don't ever go back to that bar again...it is now off limits (unless you want to deal with the revenge seekers from your previous fight, might be lethal this time).
If you do go, leave at the first sign of trouble and keep your ego in check (don't insult back, be a smart a$$). If you do get into a fight despite all that, don't ever go back to that bar again...it is now off limits (unless you want to deal with the revenge seekers from your previous fight, might be lethal this time).
It's not black and white either way. I don't let thugs keep me trapped in my fortress-like home for fear of going outside, but I stay away from bad parts of town, seedy bars and don't vacation in Bogata Columbia. Where on the spectrum of "thug-avoidance" you fall is individual. There are plenty of places to drink and dance (bars) where fighting doesn't happen (or very, very infrequently). You can both, go to bars and avoid thugs...just not at your friend's bar it seems.
If you can "choose" a fight, you can choose not to. Choosing a fight can end up with you being charged with murder like on page one, or dead yourself (intentional or accidental).Anyone who thinks they are "good enough" to know A. they can win/prevail against a certain opponent and B. can control the outcome of a chaotic, potentially violent situation (as described in #2 above) is deceiving themselves.
doc540
Member
Don't forget this essential, fundamental rule:
Avoid involvement (even peripheral) in any domestic-related confrontation in public.
Take note of the post above containing the words, "paralysed" and "90 poundl girlfriend".
For nearly a decade I was in the nightclub/bar/dancehall/beerjoint business.
The worst one of my security guards was ever injured was during a domestic disturbance. A big 'ol cowboy had his little wife outside in the parking lot, and was open-hand slapping her while giving her a stern lecture.
"Ben", my security guard, stepped between them, shoved the cowboy against his truck and said, "Take this outta here now! We will NOT lose our license over YOUR problems". The cowboy heard and understood him and began to apologize.
When Ben turned toward the little wife she hit him with a straight, right jab right between his eyes, breaking the frames of his safety glasses and raising a big knot between his eyebrows.
That's a funny illustration of what is often a very serious and sometimes deadly situation.
Just thought it was worth mentioning, friends and neighbors.
Avoid involvement (even peripheral) in any domestic-related confrontation in public.
Take note of the post above containing the words, "paralysed" and "90 poundl girlfriend".
For nearly a decade I was in the nightclub/bar/dancehall/beerjoint business.
The worst one of my security guards was ever injured was during a domestic disturbance. A big 'ol cowboy had his little wife outside in the parking lot, and was open-hand slapping her while giving her a stern lecture.
"Ben", my security guard, stepped between them, shoved the cowboy against his truck and said, "Take this outta here now! We will NOT lose our license over YOUR problems". The cowboy heard and understood him and began to apologize.
When Ben turned toward the little wife she hit him with a straight, right jab right between his eyes, breaking the frames of his safety glasses and raising a big knot between his eyebrows.
That's a funny illustration of what is often a very serious and sometimes deadly situation.
Just thought it was worth mentioning, friends and neighbors.
I'll second Robert Hairless and say that one needs to rethink the idea of what it means to win a fight. I'm reminded of the Shel Silverstein work "The winner" http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiWINNR.html
It ends with:
It ends with:
Last edited:
as someone that has worked in bars off and on for years, i am really glad that no one ever pulled a weapon during an altercation... places like that can get way out of hand way quickly... ive watched people get hospitalized in an attack before anyone, even people at the same table, could even react... ive also watched the best of friends come to blows over nothing at all...
me, i dont mind going to bars, ive been in enough to know how to be safe... but i do tend to make sure that i sit in a place where i can watch the room and get out of the way of potential trouble...
note, i never sit in a corner or with my back to a wall... doing so would give me no exit in an emergency situation...
me, i dont mind going to bars, ive been in enough to know how to be safe... but i do tend to make sure that i sit in a place where i can watch the room and get out of the way of potential trouble...
note, i never sit in a corner or with my back to a wall... doing so would give me no exit in an emergency situation...
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
You read the words but misunderstood the meaning. Yes: if you can choose a fight, you can choose not to fight. That's why choose is such a good word, and why all the other words were in that message cuddling up close to the word choose.
rantingredneck
Member
I did a bit of bouncing when I was in college. Rough little poolhall/bar. Glad I never got any serious injuries out of it, just some bumps and bruises. Also very glad I don't do that anymore and didn't do it any longer than I did. I learned quickly that pool cues hurt, but most people who try to use them to fight don't know how. Drunk people tend to not fight very well, but they also are difficult to deter from the fight. They get the idea in their head that a fight needs to happen and it's hard to get them off that particular train of thought. Situational awareness in bars is difficult. Everything about the situation works against you. Dark, loud, crowded, alcohol dulling the senses. It's easy not to see something coming in that situation. Best to just avoid them.
Junior1942
Member
Here's the worst bar fight I've ever witnessed. My wife and I were sitting at the bar in a crowded honkytonk. Behind us, a couple in their 70s were sitting at a table. Every time the elderly couple returned from the dance floor they had to retrieve their chairs from the 20ish kids at an adjacent table. Harsh words were spoken each time.
After a while from behind me, I hear the unforgettable sound of chairs hitting the floor in anger. I turn. The elderly man is standing while a 20ish man is behind him with his arms wrapped around the elderly man and effectively preventing the elderly man from raising his fists in defense. Another 20ish man is standing in front of the elderly man and is giving him a sound beating.
The elderly man's arms were locked at his side by the kid behind him. But the elderly man could move his hands. His right hand slipped into his pants pocket and came out with an open pocket knife, which was razor sharp considering what happened next. He raised the knife to the arms around his waist and started slashing. When the grip on his arms lessened, he raised the knife up and back and sliced down the kids face--from forehead to chin.
The kid fell back, and now the elderly man's arms were free. As the kid in front of the elderly man continued to pummel him, out thrust the hand with the knife, and it hit the kid in the belly with a sound like a knife thrust into a watermellon.
Screaming and clutching his belly, the kid ran out the door of the honky tonk. Bleeding like a stuck pig, his slashed friend followed him out the door.
All the above happened in maybe fifteen seconds. I don't know what happened to the two kids, but nothing happened to the elderly man. The bar owner mopped up the blood, straightened the chairs, and the music and the dancing started again.
After a while from behind me, I hear the unforgettable sound of chairs hitting the floor in anger. I turn. The elderly man is standing while a 20ish man is behind him with his arms wrapped around the elderly man and effectively preventing the elderly man from raising his fists in defense. Another 20ish man is standing in front of the elderly man and is giving him a sound beating.
The elderly man's arms were locked at his side by the kid behind him. But the elderly man could move his hands. His right hand slipped into his pants pocket and came out with an open pocket knife, which was razor sharp considering what happened next. He raised the knife to the arms around his waist and started slashing. When the grip on his arms lessened, he raised the knife up and back and sliced down the kids face--from forehead to chin.
The kid fell back, and now the elderly man's arms were free. As the kid in front of the elderly man continued to pummel him, out thrust the hand with the knife, and it hit the kid in the belly with a sound like a knife thrust into a watermellon.
Screaming and clutching his belly, the kid ran out the door of the honky tonk. Bleeding like a stuck pig, his slashed friend followed him out the door.
All the above happened in maybe fifteen seconds. I don't know what happened to the two kids, but nothing happened to the elderly man. The bar owner mopped up the blood, straightened the chairs, and the music and the dancing started again.
BozemanMT
Member
Good for the old man.
I used to drink in college and afterwards. I was never a "mean" drunk, but I knew those who were, and sometimes hung out with them. After a while I realized that
a. I don't really like hanging out with these people when I'm sober.
b. I don't like what the alcohol is doing to me.
c. bars don't smell good.
I stopped going to bars, I stopped hanging out with people who weren't my friends (but it took me a while to realize that) and after a while I just stopped drinking.
I'm ok with that. I end up doing some stupid things (just ask my wife., she'll tell you) and sometimes I go to some stupid places. But I'm sure that my time in stupid places is way way way way way down since I stopped going to bars and hanging out with stupid people.
I think (and I just had this realization while I was writing this) that some of these people who always get into fights do it because they haven't gotten their a$$ kicked yet. They have always won, or someone has saved them (c'mon, buddy let's get out of here) or nothing bad has happened. I'm sure that's the case with the old man above. But that unfortunately at some point (just by the law of averages) is going to lead to a HUGE escalation of force somewhere, and you just might be hanging out with them (or nearby, or whatever)
I used to drink in college and afterwards. I was never a "mean" drunk, but I knew those who were, and sometimes hung out with them. After a while I realized that
a. I don't really like hanging out with these people when I'm sober.
b. I don't like what the alcohol is doing to me.
c. bars don't smell good.
I stopped going to bars, I stopped hanging out with people who weren't my friends (but it took me a while to realize that) and after a while I just stopped drinking.
I'm ok with that. I end up doing some stupid things (just ask my wife.
, she'll tell you) and sometimes I go to some stupid places. But I'm sure that my time in stupid places is way way way way way down since I stopped going to bars and hanging out with stupid people.I think (and I just had this realization while I was writing this) that some of these people who always get into fights do it because they haven't gotten their a$$ kicked yet. They have always won, or someone has saved them (c'mon, buddy let's get out of here) or nothing bad has happened. I'm sure that's the case with the old man above. But that unfortunately at some point (just by the law of averages) is going to lead to a HUGE escalation of force somewhere, and you just might be hanging out with them (or nearby, or whatever)
I have to agree. Bar fights and situational awareness in a bar is a totally different animal than CCW, home defense, etc. There are many other factors involved.
I hate hearing people talk about bars and drama, and relating it to the type of self-defense normally discussed on THR. Speculating "well if I had my pistol, when is it ok to draw?" Its not. You don't draw a pistol in a drunken bar fight. Shooting a guy who is attacking you in a bar is not only illegal but cowardly. You may say "well what if they have a gun...."- ok, if you're in a bar where people carry guns- re-read the above statement.... don't go to these bars in the first place.
If you've been in enough bar fights you'll understand what I mean.
It's things like this that make me happy I'm a large intimidating looking guy that's also very easy going. I don't start trouble with anyone and I'm big enough that people tend not to start anything with me.
On the off chance someone takes offense to something I've done, there's nothing like a quick apology, even if it's not warranted, to diffuse a situation. My pride is not going to stop me from using a very simple method of avoiding a situation that could lead to serious bodily harm to any number of people.
On the off chance someone takes offense to something I've done, there's nothing like a quick apology, even if it's not warranted, to diffuse a situation. My pride is not going to stop me from using a very simple method of avoiding a situation that could lead to serious bodily harm to any number of people.
I'm proud of the fact that I always, ALWAYS tried to use my mouth to de-escalate a problem in the venues I worked in before resorting to other means.
You wouldn't usually expect that from a 6' 2", 400 pound bald guy, and that always gave me a bit of an edge. I would much prefer to get home the next morning with no bruises or split knuckles, than with them.
Now that I don't do that work anymore I am even mellower and easygoing, I think it was because of how many times I saw stupid fights start over the smallest thing for something like 16 or 17 years.
Now, I am centered enough that if you tailgate me when I'm in my car I will pull over to get out of your way, and if you flip me off I will let it go without doing a thing. I might WANT to stomp a hole in you and walk it dry, but at this stage in my life I prefer to let that kinda silly crap go right on by without acting on it.
Of course, if you are stupid enough to actually try to hurt me or my loved ones, then I become Godzilla and you are now Tokyo
!
You wouldn't usually expect that from a 6' 2", 400 pound bald guy, and that always gave me a bit of an edge. I would much prefer to get home the next morning with no bruises or split knuckles, than with them.
Now that I don't do that work anymore I am even mellower and easygoing, I think it was because of how many times I saw stupid fights start over the smallest thing for something like 16 or 17 years.
Now, I am centered enough that if you tailgate me when I'm in my car I will pull over to get out of your way, and if you flip me off I will let it go without doing a thing. I might WANT to stomp a hole in you and walk it dry, but at this stage in my life I prefer to let that kinda silly crap go right on by without acting on it.
Of course, if you are stupid enough to actually try to hurt me or my loved ones, then I become Godzilla and you are now Tokyo
!theken206
Member
old irish proverb "many a mans nose and teeth were broke by his mouth"
or "many a mans nose has been broken by his tounge"
or "many a mans nose has been broken by his tounge"
bloodedsky
member
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2007
- Messages
- 166
It's your prerogative to keep going to bars. Know that BS can and does happen in bars.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 4,206
amen for back doors and knowing when its time to leave. when i drank i loved to fight lucky no one killed me.i ran bars when i was young and did learn how to defuse a situation. quit drinking and going to bars but went out to one one nite to dance and drink sodas . young guy in bands girlfriend decided the way to get his attention was to flirt and dance with one of three young marines. she was hot he was sure he was gonna get lucky when rock star got suicidal and jumped off stage. my g/f demanded i keep him from getting killed. i was trying to figure out how not to get stomped myself. i got in the middle and invited the three marines for a beer on me. they were angry asked if i was on rockstars side. i told em the truth nope i was on their side. that puzzled em a lil and they decided to drink my beer. i told em they were right. but that if they went and stomped rock star it wouldn't get em laid and they looked to smart to kill a career over one skirt in a town with a college with 3000 girls and 800 guys. marines understand disparity of force. they looked at me eyes wide "3000 girl? 800 guys?" and started grinning were laughing when i told em that at least 200 of the guys were gay. hell rock star even came over and apologized and bought next round. too many bar killings are over testosterone and a girl i do have to admit it woulda been fun watching those 3 kick those college boys butts but i would hate to see em get in trouble. and in that situation the marines were gonna get in trouble just for being marines
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
