Big fist fight on my corner

[Devonai]

From what I gathered, one group of people had left the Pickled Onion, a local bar about two blocks away, and another group followed them down the street, trying to start something. They got as far as the intersection of my street. I was outside getting some (carcinogenic) air and the whole thing went down right in front of me. I did not intervene. 1 vs 1 is one thing, 4 vs 4 is quite another, and I wasn't about to wade into a melee while armed. I had my Sig 239 .40 in a IWB holster at the time.

The cops must have caught wind of it, or they had ESP, 'cause six cruisers showed up within 90 seconds. The guys that started it screwed the pooch by running, so the cops were a bit more sympathetic to the story that the remaining party put forth.

I found it very interesting that of the girls that were present, three who were with the victims (a term I use sparingly) tried valiantly to physically break it up, while all of those who were with the aggressors stood by, screaming at them to stop.

As always my only concern is that things don't get out of hand and that nobody gets more of a beating than they give. I do not feel ashamed for drawing near and watching, for I am watching for the introduction of a weapon, or for the person who falls to the ground and is still pummeled, or however that fight might turn into a potentially deadly confrontation. I am not a cop and I no longer want the job, but attempted murder doesn't fly in my presence.

Once the cops were on the scene, I decided I'd better wait until they'd determined who was involved before leaving. As the only uninvolved witness I didn't feel like answering a bunch of questions even if my ID proves I live 20 yards away. Leaving at the same time that the aggressors were fleeing wouldn't have looked too good, IMO.

 

[Jim March]

Ya, you did fine.

I have this rule of thumb: never get between any two or more people that "want a piece of each other". If both sides are still swingin' away, fine, grab the popcorn and enjoy the show . (OK, not really, at least in my case, but you get the idea.)

This is true no matter how many people are involved, 'cept the danger goes up with the numbers.

Now, in a four on four where one side is losing bad, is down to one remaining active player trying to get away and one or more losers are just getting *creamed* with excessive and/or deadly force, in THAT situation I'm the type that might draw down to prevent murder. What you saw never got anywhere near that point. I've seen it get there, and possibly saved a guy's life. With one-on-four in that case, and the one guy clearly dire to escape (and knew it) it was a different thing entirely and I have no regrets about jumping into that one. I managed to avoid personal use of deadly force only by "inches".

 

[Tim Burke]

I wouldn't have even hung around to watch the show. Not my fight, not my problem. If you are in a position to see someone produce a gun, you are in a position to get shot.
I'd recomend that one go inside, & call the police, as soon as one realizes that there is an altercation brewing. That's probably what happened at the Pickled Onion, and it seems to have worked out nicely for them.

 

[moxie]

I think Tim's approach is pretty sound. By the way, if you're not a cop, what's the status of your being armed in Mass.? Even in a righteous situation, wouldn't you be behind the 8 ball?

 

[Devonai]

I might remind you that I live 20 yards away and I was already outside when this happened.

Moxie, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean at a detriment to the overriding policital atmosphere, then yes. I have a MA LTC which is the only explanation for being armed I think I need.

 

[krept]

You did good. Imagine you having to draw and two guys at opposite ends of the fracas see you draw, have been drinking, have guns and think "I can shoot faster than him..."

Things could get bad for everyone. And also the fact that you live 20 yards away makes a big difference because anonymous retribution is an easy possibility.

About three weeks ago @ midnight my neighbors were having a vato party. I heard yelling and shut of the lights, peeked outside in time to see a small guy stab a bigger guy in the arm. He ran away and the big guy threw a fit, trashing a grill, a car and everything. Cops were on scene literally within two minutes (our local LEOs have a great response time, even responded with a K9 unit) and got the small guy. For some reason both people were arrested. You can bet your last dollar that I stayed inside that night.

cheers

 

[CWL]

It ain't your fight.

By your description it was a fistfight and not some sort of armed assault anyway.

Let the LEOs do their job.

 

[moxie]

Devonai, I was simply curious since I used to live in Mass. and I know it's difficult to get a handgun there, much less carry concealed. I'm not asking for an explanation, just trying to understand the circumstances of the situation which you brought forward to us. What is an LTC? Thanks.

 

[Devonai]

The difficulty of getting a handgun in Massachusetts varies greatly depending on where you live. The chief of police of each town has all the power in deciding whether to accept or reject an application for a permit, as well as what steps may be necessary to apply. This is called "may-issue."

Most chiefs work with the system and will grant an FID (Firearms ID, necessary simply to own firearms in one's home), a LTC (License to Carry) class B or class A, based solely on whether you've completed the Commonwealth's requirements. Other chiefs are notoriously anti-gun and will only grant restricted class A, or only class B, or even only an FID unless you can show a really decisive need, such as being a jeweler or an armed security guard, et cetera. They'll even add their own additional requirements, such as the one four northern towns recently did: a note from a doctor attesting to your mental health!

Fortunately most towns will issue you an unrestricted class A as long as you've had a safety course and no criminal record.

Here's how the licenses break down:

FID: Allows "low" capacity rifles and shotguns to be stored in the home and transported to and from the range (locked and unloaded of course).

LTC class B: Adds "low" capacity pistols to the above. Low capacity pistols means any handgun that was never meant to take a magazine of over 10 rounds, NOT any pistol simply used with a post-ban 10 round magazine.

LTC class A: Adds high capacity pistols and rifles, AND the ability to carry concealed, unless you've copped to some sort of restriction, which would limit the circumstances under which you could carry. Restrictions include "target/sport" and "self protection." Good towns will issue for "all lawful purposes," i.e. unrestricted, all you have to do is ask.

I'm sure I've made a small mistake, but that's 99% correct in my mind.

To answer your other question, Moxie, I have an LTC class A and I always carry outside my home, even when smoking a cigarette.

 

[moxie]

Devonai, Thanks for the explanation. I left Leominster many years ago (1960s) and it was actually a little tougher to carry concealed then there than it appears to be now in Beverly. The rules were a bit different too. Mass. has always been a fiefdom run by the Chiefs when it comes to guns. Back then in Leominster, at least, there were no concealed carry permits other than the jewelers you mentioned, a guy who ran a deli open at odd hours and a couple of private dicks.

 

[Devonai]

Ah, yes, Leominster, the "furniture capitol of New England." I've spend many an hour out at Leominster State Park with the State Guard, usually during the coldest months of the year

 

[moxie]

Actually Gardner was the "chair city." Leominster was the home of plastics. Foster Grant and Dupont had big plants there. Leominster State Park is a nice spot but is, as you've learned, very cold in the winter. Cheers.

 

[M1911]

Moxie: You might be surprised how many of us in MA are licensed to carry concealed.

I agree with Tim, however, don't stand around to watch the show. On more than a couple occasions, bad guys have staged shows in order to distract from more dastardly dealings. If bad things are going on, beat feet -- when the shtf, you might get hit be the flying fecal matter, even if you were only a bystander to begin with.

 

[Devonai]

Last I heard, during an idiotic "expose" on LTCs on Channel 7, 1 in 30 MA residents have one.

I'd still consider the situation worthy of a judgement call. If drunk guys want to stomp on each other, fine, but I'm going to at least assess the situation and make sure a real crime isn't occuring.

 

[moxie]

I am surprised, and happily, that so many Mass. residents are being issued permits. Wasn't always so. I left in '69 when I joined the AF and haven't been back except to visit. Wish I could say the same about my current residence, the Peoples Republic of Maryland. Even with a newly elected Republican governor (finally), things are grim here. He's wasting all his time and political capital on getting more slot machines of all things. Stay safe!