Barnes TSX. Bad down range accuracy performance?

[GJgo]

So I worked up a great load for my Weatherby Sub-MOA rifle chambered in 300 WSM using 168 grain TSX bullets and H4350. Batch after batch, if I do my job I can put 1/2" groups on paper at 100yds- all 3 holes touching. (3175 fps) At 200 yds the results are darn near as good. At 300 yds however, it will barely hold 4" groups. At 400 yds, it's all over the place- I'm lucky to get it on paper! Just for background, I load for numerous rifles that I shoot at distances from 100 out to 600-700 yds, and it's fair to say that the issue is not with the shooter. Also, this is the only rifle I load Barnes in.

We all know that the TSX doesn't have a very good BC compared to its competition. What I'm wondering is if the rings in the shank may cause instability in long range flight. Also, I have read similar reviews online of others with the same in close vs. down range experience. Since this is my Elk rifle, and here in the Rockies a 300-400 yd shot is quite possible, what I'm seeing here doesn't sit well. I'm considering trying a load using Nosler's new E-tip 180 grain. It has a great BC, and the 180 grain Nosler Accubond in my Savage 10FP .308 on top of Varget will hit soda cans out to 600 yds without too much trouble. (I just don't like the way it expands as far as hunting big game.)

Today I shot some loads in the 300WSM with the 180 grain TSX, but what I worked up today didn't shoot any better than 1.25" at 100 yds. (H4350 at loads between 3010 and 3050 fps) I might try another batch just to see what they do down range..

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

No direct experience, but, all copper or nearly all (+tin?) just does not sound like it's up for long-range. As you said, lower BC.

Lower SD too.

Can you safely drive it any faster? Or go down in TSX weight and then maybe go faster?

 

[GJgo]

I'm driving the 168 as fast as I can, safely. The 180s seemed to be about right there too as far as sticky bolt lift. If I dropped it down to a 150, not only would the BC go down, but I wouldn't be comfortable aiming it into an Elk at any type of range.

 

[skinewmexico]

Sounds like a hunting bullet to me, but 4" @ 300 is still minute of deer by a long shot. I'd try some Bergers, or Swift A-frames or Siccorros.

 

[Moose458]

I use the Barnes X BT 180 gr 72 grs of IMR4831 in my .300 Winchester Mag with great results. Took my Bison at 350 yards, all the accuracy I need. I don't get too hung up on tight groups on paper. I've never had a bench rest to use when I'm out hunting. For some reason I just can't get an Elk to stand out on the rifle range.LOL I don't mean to sound like a smart a$$, but it looks to me like you have all the hunting accuracy you need. The Barnes bullets weren't made for long range bench shooting, and how many 400 plus yard shots will you make in your life time? Personally I don't like to shoot at anything over 250 yards. The Bison was a once in a life time hunt and that was the only shot I was going to get.

 

[RevolverMan567]

dont know if it would matter

but it would seem to me that being all copper vs lead core the metal density would require the two bullets of equal weight to be different lengths. copper being less dense would require more material to make up the 150 than it would with lead, this would cause more bearing surface and if your shooting up to the maximum bullet weight that your twist rate is designed for then it may not stabilize as well and cause poor accuracy. I have seen what the TSX would do to soft tissue first hand and trust me, there isnt an elk god ever created that would hold a snowballs chance in hell against a well placed 150 TSX. out to somewhere near 300-400 yards.

just my .2Cents may be wavy of with the ballistics report.

 

[Richard.Howe]

We all know that the TSX doesn't have a very good BC compared to its competition.

What's this? I use the TSX, among other reasons, precisely because it has a improved BC relative to traditional lead-core bullets. It even holds its own against poly-tip bullets, while retaining the advantage of monolithic construction and reduced failures IMO.

For example, the .308 TSX 150 gr has a BC of 0.369, while the Hornady Interlock SP 150 gr. has a BC of 0.338. Heck, even the uber-plastic tipped Interbond SST-type bullet (in 150 gr) has a BC of 0.415.

Move up to the 165 gr IB poly tip, and you reach a BC of 0.447. The 168 gr TSX has a BC of 0.404.

So you pay a ~10% penalty on BC for having a very tough bullet construction...and let's be serious, precious few of us need every last little bit of BC. Plus, you got to ask yourself how you bullet's going to perform when your quarry steps out at 30 yards, and not the 500 you're planning your reload around.

If the TSX bands had anything to do with it, then the poly-tipped 165gr Barnes MRX would have a lower BC than 0.439!

 

[GJgo]

What concerns me is not the group size at extended range, or whether or not it is "good enough"- it's that the 300 and 400 yd group size (big and inconsistent) is not at all in line with the group sizes I'm getting at 100 and 200 yds (small and consistent). That inconsistency means if I don't know where the bullet is going I won't feel comfortable pulling the trigger, since hunting shots aren't on a bench and the "groups" won't ever be as tight. I'm just looking to see if anyone else has experienced this with the TSX. I have all spring and summer to develop this rifle, and enjoy ringing out all the accuracy I can with tuning handloads.

 

[GJgo]

So I picked up a box of 180gr Etip bullets. They are long for their weight.. I have never thought the TSX, in comparison, to be long for their weight. We'll see how they compare.

As far as the destructive power of the TSX, RevolverMan567 may have a point. The other day I had a box, more or less 2'x2', with oh say a 20-30lb rock sitting on it to keep the wind from blowing it over. 100 yds. I also had a gallon jug full of water sitting 2' to the left. Once I was done with my group shooting on the box, I put one of my 168gr TSX into the jug. I expected it to destroy the jug and vaporize the water. What I did not expect was that the force was enough to literally blow the box about 25' to the right, and the rock about 3-4' off the back! When I picked it up, it wasn't even all that wet..

 

[Waywatcher]

This is anecdotal evidence, but my Tikka T3 groups better with 'cheap' PSP rounds than it does with TSX.

This is with factory loads. (federal premium vs remington)

Also, the PSP did noticeably more damage to the meat and put the deer down noticeably quicker.

 

[GJgo]

The factory "target" that came with my 300 wsm sub-moa was with 180gr soft points. Didn't say which. I tried Federal blue box to break the rifle in, but it was a hot summer day, seems they use ball powder, and the rounds were quite over pressure. We're talking two hand bolt lift. I finished breaking it in with remington soft points- they were alright. Neither grouped great. I tried handloads with 165gr Partitions next. The groups were horrid at moderate speeds. They became "minute of deer" at top speeds. Still, none of this mystical "sub-moa". Next, I started with the 168 TSX loads and found my "sub-moa" special at 100yds. Further development of it at longer distances lead to the question I started the thread to address.

I'm sure that most 30 cal hunting bullets will do the job if the shooter puts them in the right place. That's why I'm focused on that last part.

 

[Poper]

GJgo,
I, too, have been handloading for the .300WSM.
My best load for accuracy so far has been the Hornady 180g SST.
I have also developed loads for the Sierra PH 180 and PH 65, Speer GS 150 and gs 165, Hornady 165 SP, Nosler 180g Partition and the Barnes 165g TSX. I have found there are very few bullets that I can make shoot 1" or better at 100 yds for three rounds. The Hornady 180 SST is consistently 3/8" to 3/4" if I am having a good day doing my part. (I.E. without coffee!)

I have not tested any of the loads beyond 250 yards, though. I like the SST's performance on game close (shot a button buck at 85 yards (+/-) this year) and far (a large mulie doe at 280 yards (+/-). Both performed perfectly (as far as we could tell) but completely penetrated. Wound channels were quite impressive!

I have found the .300WSM very easy to load for. I think any of the bonded bullets will provide the performance you are looking for without giving up much.

I hope this is helpful.

Poper

 

[GJgo]

I like the SST, especially in terms of value, but I wondered how it would perform on Elk size game. (jacket seperation, etc.) I Googled it and didn't find much..

 

[Horsemany]

This is why I use hunting bullets that have a proven track record. I generally try to stay away from the "specialty type bullets". In my experience every specialty type bullet which excells in some way will be deficient in another way to balance things out. An example would be the Ballistic Tip that has good rapid expansion but is totally worthless if it hits bone (don't ask how I know).The bullets job hasn't changed in the last few decades, so why did the bullet? MONEY. It's more profitable for bullet and ammo makers to make you think you are missing something by not using their newest invention. I think you are already seeing the trade off of the 3 flutes at longer ranges. I'm all for keeping things fresh and interesting but I don't want my hunts to be the guinea pig testing ground for these new bullets. If I need a high performance bullet (which I seldom feel I do) I'll go for the tried and true Nosler Partition which I have lots of faith in.

 

[browningguy]

The TSX's are long for their weight, this may mean they are barely getting stabilized dpending on the twist in your barrel, just one possibility. I shoot them in my fast twist, long throated, 7x57 and they work great.

And the 180gr. SST will kill any elk that ever walked. While it is true they are new, relative to cap and ball, they are well proven. I shoot 150 SST's exclusively in my .308 for hunting, as it is by far the most accurate load in it. I would not hesitate to use it on elk although I have only shot pigs, deer and antelope with it.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

1. The all-copper Barnes bullets (both the tipped and non-tipped) do have the same or BETTER BCs than similarly-heavy lead/copper jacket bullets, not worse, as Mr. Howe explains.

2. It is quite possible that accuracy degrades at long range, for this reason: stability of a bullet in flight is dependent on LENGTH (not weight), and rate of spin. The all-copper bullets are longer than lead/copper bullets, and thus require more spin to stabilize, or if stabilized at the muzzle, will become unstable at a sooner time (and therefore sooner distance) than lead/copper bullets - they will pass the point of instability sooner. The bullet velocity is not the only number decreasing as time/distance is covered - the spin rate is also slowing down - being longer, they may start to wobble in the 300-400 yard range, which can degrade accuracy. Wouldn't surprise me. If this is what is happening, then a faster twist rate barrel would take care of the issue, although that may screw up your PRIMARY accuracy you are experiencing from the sweet spot of barrel/bullet combo which you have apparently hit upon there. With that kind of accuracy I wouldn't touch it. Long shots are pretty rare, so I'd leave that one in it's current config, and if felt the need for a longer range rig, either get a different rifle with perhaps a faster twist rate/same caliber (or for that matter a different caliber), or simply work up an additional load with a different bullet (lead) for long-range use with that same rifle/barrel.

 

[GJgo]

Well, the TSX 168 doesn't really seem "that" long to me, but maybe.. I've got some Sierra 155s I can try in there for contrast in terms of stability.

Speaking of the SST, it looks to me like basically a non-bonded Interbond w/ a cannelure. Anyone know if there is any more to it?

 

[GJgo]

I did some more searching on the SST, and it is said to be one of the more explosive big game bullets. All references I saw said that its brother the interbond should be used for Elk. Might try the interbond, and / or some accubonds, if the E-tip doesn't pan out. I shot accubonds in my 308 though, and I wasn't *real* impressed with how they expanded. They were very accurate, however.

Thinking more about the earlier arguments regarding spin speed and bullet length, and what I've seen with both the 168 TSX & the 165 partition in my rifle, I'm wondering if I'm going to be remanded to 150s for it. I know it will push them fast, so if that turns out to be the case, I'll need to find the one that holds together the best and penetrates the deepest.

Just for fun, here's a pic of the standard group my "magic" 168 TSX load puts on paper.

 

[Sylvan-Forge]

Lower SD too.

Whoops, I meant density (yeh, that's it)

GJgo, 'tis magic!

Good luck on sorting out your load.

 

[GJgo]

So I tried some other stuff at the range today. I made a second showing of the 165gr Partition. Still not all that great. Next I worked some various loads with some 155gr Sierra Palma Match I had on hand. Those weren't all that great either.

What ended up working well was when I re-did some loads with the 180gr TSX, but this time seated the bullet incrementally deeper in the case. Before I had tried 2.880, which is max length for my mag and what the 168 TSX did well at. I re-ran the 2.880, had some 2.867, and some 2.851. While the first and last ones were only OK, that middle length was good. At 100 yds, I had 2 almost on top of each other, and one about .5" higher. (POI on this rifle can float when the barrel heats up.) At 300 yds, I put the two I had left down range and they were about 1.5" apart- that's more than I expected. I'll definitely be working up more of these to test for consistency.

So, it is looking as though I'm not in fact having down range issues with the TSX. It is looking like the gun just isn't fond of rounds which are too short! Not what I expected, but if it works, it works.

I'll report back on the next round, and hopefully will have a chance to put some of those 180 Etip down range as well.

 

[UnTainted]

Barnes makes the MRX bullet you might check out. It's a simmilar no-lead-core bullet with a core made of tungsten. It makes for a shorter bullet with different weight distribution.

I don't reload yet, but I've shot the factory federal with the MRX at elk and had great results.

 

[UnTainted]

Also I heard that the copper used in the bullet is a different kind than usual copper jackets, and will respond differently to copper deposits in your bore (those copper deposits left by regular lead bullets) affecting accuracy. I might recomend a soak to remove copper and everything before a good bore polish and then a mini re-break-in with only the TSX or MRX copper to see if using only one type of copper to deposit in the bore will improve the accuracy.

who knows?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Barnes bullets are longer than lead core bullets of the same weight...meaning they require a faster twist rifling...your bullets are tumbling.

Your rifle probably has a 1 in 10 twist...but I don't know without looking. But I'd bet $5 that this is the problem.

And the Barnes bullets will penetrate better than ANY expanding bullet at all ranges...and the rings in the bullets are there to reduce friction and further increase velocity, and also serve to reduce fouling and barrel wear.

 

[Schleprok62]

Ridgerunner,
according to Barnes their bullet length is virtually the same as everyone elses bullets in the same weight... Check out their free CD... Myth Busters...

Now, I do agree that maybe he doesn't have enough twist, or he's over pushing the bullet... maybe slow it down a bit... velocity isn't everything... even in ballistics...

 

[GooseGestapo]

All the references I've seen regarding the .300WSM show that it has a 1-12" twist as standard. My .300RUM has a 1-12" twist likewise. This is why the 180gr TSX is destablizing at the "longish" ranges you mentioned. BTW, the .308wcf is also typically also made with 1-12" twist barrels. You shouldn't have any problems with the lighter 168gr. or lighter bullets.

The .30/06 retains the 1-10" twist because it was originally the .30/03 and fired a 220gr RN. When the neck was shortened and throat altered for the 150gr Spitzer bullet, the faster twist was retained.

FWIW; My brother uses a .308 to shoot his elk (he lives in NV, and puts in for tags in 4-5 states each year, so he usually gets drawn "somewhere" as he puts it.) He's never recovered a Nosler 150gr Partition from the one's he's shot. The 150 TSX is somewhat longer than the Nosler, so, it should do well.
My best friend shot a 1,200lb 6x6 bull in Colorado in 2006 with my 7mm-08 using 140gr Nosler Partitions, all three he fired into the chest of the elk completely penetrated and exited. Range was 250yds -lased. He shot it 3 times because the guide said "keep shooting" ! till the elk dropped...... It did after the 4th shot, which because of his carelessness in pocketing ammo, were some 140gr Sierra PtSpt's I sent along with him for sighting-in and practice once he got to Colorado. It broke both front legs and was balled up under the hide on the far side........

Further, FWIW; My Weatherby Vanguard in .257wby is also "fickle" about the bullets it will shoot well. Most will run 1.5" for 3-shot groups. However, the Speer 120gr Hot-core's will shoot ~0.5" at about 3,350fps. So, I would't fret over the fact that it's supposed to shoot "MOA", but dosen't with most factory grade ammo. Weatherby ususally specifiy's which ammo they used to test the rifle....... Usually Weatherby ammo (loaded by Norma) in the Wby cartridges..... I'd suspect either Winchester/Nosler Ballistic Silvertips or Nosler Custom with Accutips were used by the factory for your rifle.
Remember- GIGO; garbage in = garbage out, usually........