Barrel Burners?

[ShunZu]

Heating the barrel up too much without cool-down time, not properly cleaning, and loading to the max edge of the envelope of ANY cartridge will do more to erode a barrel. Throwing stones at specific calibers using urban legend and lore isn't really fair to those rounds.

Yes, I used up a 6mm PPC that's no longer useful for matches, but it took LOTS of shooting to do it. And it STILL shoots 1moa.. just not good enough any more for competition -- but still plays havoc on groundhogs. One of my .243's has literally thousands of rounds through it -- and I load it to sensible pressures -- and there has been no sign of group degradation yet.

Jury is still out on my Win 70 .243 WSSM. Haven't shot enough through it yet to see any problems.. but my hunch is that it'll go the same path as my 6mm some day. But I'll have lots of fun with it until that day arrives.

Wish I could drive a car to a million miles on the odometer, too. But that's about as practical a thought as wishing ANY barrel will shoot a million rounds without opening up a bit. Things wear out. So do our rifles. And my body.

 

[eldon519]

A couple questions I've come up with:

If you are looking for .223 ballistics, would you get longer barrel life loading a .223 to its capacity or using a .22-250 with starting loads? The .22-250 would obviously do it at lower pressure, but it also burns a lot more powder to do it. So which is more damaging, pressure or the ratio of powder capacity to bore volume?

Another, I have not heard that it will ruin your barrel to neglect cleaning it? Does anyone know how that works? Is it a matter of having abrasive carbon buildup in the barrel?

I've also read talk off the cartridge shoulder angle being a potential culprit if it guides gases at an angle where they hit the barrel throat instead of inside the case neck. Would a cartridge with a long neck possibly provide longer barrel life because of this?

 

[Funderb]

QUOTE

I just wanted to get in on the little quote-a-thon going on here.

Any magnum caliber, esp. magnums with harder jackets. (I think S&B is known to have a pretty hard jacket, and win. whitebox) Those will be wearing down the bore pretty fast, just due to velocity and the required mintness of bore to keep them accurate. Not that they turn into crap after a few rounds, just that they lose that .5 moa beauty sooner than most.

 

[dagger dog]

It used to be acepted that any round over 4000 fps got the bum rap of BARREL BURNER the .220 Swift with the older powder suffered this name calling in its infancy.

With modern powders and correct shooting procedures (letting the bbl cool between strings) it's not a problem. Rumor has it the latest 4000 fps .204 Ruger, is starting to gain this bum rap.

The 22-250 in recent years has been loaded to acheive 4000 with the newer powders and bullets,and the .223 has been known to be loaded to pressures near the 22-250 range and getting close to the magical number, but why do that when you have the originals and so many of the IMPROVED versions so easily available.

 

[Zak Smith]

It makes no sense to attempt to "define away" the term because some people don't shoot enough, or you can reduce the effects by downloading, or it's better than it used to be.

There are cartridge and load characteristics that absolutely affect accurate barrel life.

 

[Shawnee]

"There are cartridge and load characteristics that absolutely affect accurate barrel life."

With all due respect... Since the characteristics of ALL cartridges/loads affect barrel life, that statement is meaningless.

Fact is; it makes no sense to "define away" the shooter's mistreatment of the rifle by trying to blame the rapid "burn-out" of a barrel on this or that caliber.

 

[Auburn1992]

Jury is still out on my Win 70 .243 WSSM.

Just wondering how much faster you can push that than a regular .243? And is it worth the shorter barrel life and more expensive cartridges?

 

[Shawnee]

The WSSM starts out (with 100gr. bullets) about 250fps. faster than the .243 but the difference in velocity diminishes to about 150fps. by 300yds.
With a 200 yd. "zero", the difference in bullet drop at 300yds. is about an inch, and at 400 yds. it's about 3 inches.
Said another way - the difference in drop is less the space your crosshairs cover.

So...

Shot with keyboards in the forums - there is an inch difference at 300 yds.and three inches difference at 400 yds.

Shot with rifles in the hunting fields - there is no significant difference.

 

[Tarvis]

Its not about "bad mouthing." People are trying to help the best they can.

I think bad mouthing and helping are on two different planes of existence .

Just wondering how much faster you can push that than a regular .243?

You'd have to check the load data, but I think it was somewhere around 100 fps faster for most of the WSM cartridges. When it really comes down to it, the WSM was designed as a "new lease on old cartridges" (in my own words). All the WSM's shoot a little bit faster and a little bit flatter than thier counterparts as well as being shorter, but ammo is more expensive with a minimal increase in terminal ballistics. I get the feeling Winchester came out with the design to boost sales. I really don't see why a person would need to upgrade from a .243 to a .243 WSM, other than want and the idea that it's amazingly better. I may be wrong, but it's not like going from .243 to 7mm rem mag; the advantage just isn't that big.

You asked the same sort of question on another thread, let me ask you this: How many rounds do you plan on shooting a year? I don't know the exact numbers on barrel life expectancy, but I think I remember reading in an old Sierra manual that 220 swift was burning barrels in 4000-6000 rounds with outdated powder and outdated metalurgy. Even after the barrel wears out, how bad is accuracy going to get? Like ShunZu said, his rifle wasn't benchrest grade competition sub moa, but it was still good for varmints. I think you're asking the wrong questions if you're trying to decide on what cartridge you want to shoot. ALL barrels wear out. The only way you would notice is if you regularly shot paper and started to see groups get significantly bigger after 6000 rounds, possibly 10,000.

If you are worried about it, get a chrome lined barrel. Problem solved.

 

[Auburn1992]

I'd plan on shooting just around 20-40 rounds a week (max would be 80). So it would be anywhere from 240-480 per year with 95-110 gr .243 bullets. If I got the xr-100 (.223) it would probably be around 75-110 a week... 900-1320/year with 50-60gr

 

[Tarvis]

Hmm, I'd invest in a reloading press if you don't already have one. IMHO, don't worry about trashing the barrel too much. Just don't run a file through it and stay away from stainless steel bore brushes. Get a chrome lined barrel if it really really bothers you. At 500 rounds a year out of one rifle with the proper barrel hygene, my guess is you'd buy another rifle before you wore it out. We're talkin like 6-7 years before the accuracy went down hill (how much accuracy you lost is another discussion), and it's not like you pull the trigger on the last round and the barrel swells/explodes/falls off.

 

[30Cal]

If the most you ever shoot is 3-5rds a year, then who cares?

But if you're going to be shooting 20+ rds a month, then you will eventually shoot it out.

And if you shoot somewhat competitively, 1500rds is a fairly typical season. That means a barrel (possibly two barrels) each year. That's a big deal.

 

[Tarvis]

That means a barrel (possibly two barrels) each year. That's a big deal.

At first I was very sceptical, but after reading the Lilja faq page, You may be right. Check the link:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm

From what I gather, the barrel life stated on thier page is in regards to the accuracy life, not necesarily the "absolute" life, which is more in concern on this thread, from what I gather.

 

[USSR]

It makes no sense to attempt to "define away" the term because some people don't shoot enough, or you can reduce the effects by downloading, or it's better than it used to be.

+1. I suppose if your level of accuracy is loose enough, you could continue shooting a rifle for long after the throat is burned out, but those with higher expectations are quick to recognize when a barrel has gone south in relation to what was it's previous level of performance.

There are cartridge and load characteristics that absolutely affect accurate barrel life.

True. What I believe Zak is referring to is things like: how long is the neck (short neck cartridges tend to suffer more throad erosion); is the cartridge overbore (ratio of powder to bore size); and the constant use of double-base powder (the nitro in them is tougher on throats).

Don

 

[ShunZu]

Shot with rifles in the hunting fields - there is no significant difference.

No argument regarding my .243 WSSM. I love my other .243's -- but I got the WSSM simply because
1) It was an absolutely gorgeous Win Model 70 with furniture to die for
2) The rumor was bouncing around at that time that Winchester was going out of business
3) Lots of .243 cal Sierra Matchkings laying around the reloading bench, and
4) It's something I wanted and didn't have.

In retrospect, and on the range, there is VERY little difference between my WSSM and the other .243's. Have only hunted with it 1 time so far.. and the coyote couldn't tell me the bullet was moving 200fps faster.
Dead is, after all, dead.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Tarvis...

Went to that site and borrowed this quote...

Q. What barrel "Life" in number of rounds fired, can I expect from my new barrel?
A: That is a good question, asked often by our customers. But again there is not a simple answer. In my opinion there are two distinct types of barrel life. Accurate barrel life is probably the type most of us are referencing when we ask the question. But there is also absolute barrel life too. That is the point where a barrel will no longer stabilize a bullet and accuracy is wild. The benchrest shooter and to a lesser extent other target shooters are looking at accurate barrel life only when asking this question. To a benchrest shooter firing in matches where group size is the only measure of precision, accuracy is everything. But to a score shooter firing at a target, or bull, that is larger than the potential group size of the rifle, it is less important. And to the varmint hunter shooting prairie dog size animals, the difference between a .25MOA rifle or one that has dropped in accuracy to .5MOA may not be noticeable in the field.

Since what he refers to as the "accurate" life of the barrel is the competitive target shooter's parameter and NOT the hunter/casual shooter scenario I sure don't see any integrity (or honesty, or helpfulness) in someone coming on here making broadbrush condemnations of this or that caliber for being a "barrel burner".

Hi Don....

"...I suppose if your level of accuracy is loose enough,..."


LOLOL ! Listen to those airs ! LOLOL !

Ok, I admit it, Don. I'm one of those "loose level of accuracy" guys who can live with 1MOA or 2MOA or even what 3 MOA accuracy in the field. That's probably because I'm one of the hundreds of thousands of guys who don't bother to shoot 3 inch deer.

 

[USSR]

Hi Don....

"...I suppose if your level of accuracy is loose enough,..."


LOLOL ! Listen to those airs ! LOLOL !

Ok, I admit it, Don. I'm one of those "loose level of accuracy" guys who can live with 1MOA or 2MOA or even () 3 MOA accuracy in the field. That's probably because I'm one of the hundreds of thousands of guys who don't bother to shoot 3 inch deer.

Hi Shawnee, hater of all things .30 caliber. If you expect me to apologize for having high standards, you are sadly mistaken. My passion is shooting at 1k, and minute of beer can at 50 yards don't cut it with me. When accuracy falls off due to throat erosion, it's time for a new barrel. I shoot cartridges that tend to put that off for a reasonable amount of time (i.e. NOT barrel burners like the 6.5-.284).

Don

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Don...


LOLOL !

Well I'm not "sadly mistaken", Don, because I don't expect you to apologize for having the accuracy standards that your 1000yd. shooting requires.

But about that "hater of all things 30 caliber" stuff. I simply object to all that silly "if it ain't a .30 caliber it ain't enough" horse mustard that gets spread around.

If you promise not to tell anyone, I'll even admit I actually hold the 30/30 in quite high regard.

 

[Art Eatman]

Let's stay with the subject, and stay away from the snark, okay?

 

[Zak Smith]

With all due respect... Since the characteristics of ALL cartridges/loads affect barrel life, that statement is meaningless.

Fact is; it makes no sense to "define away" the shooter's mistreatment of the rifle by trying to blame the rapid "burn-out" of a barrel on this or that caliber.

Draw any meaningful accuracy criteria, and a 308 will always have more life than a 7RM-- no matter how cool you keep the barrel or how slowly you shoot.

Of course, if you load a 7RM to handgun pressure, the comparison is silly. Let's assume you load to the cartridge's max, but not over.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I shoot a 220 Swift.

Handload for it at moderate levels. I do not see the point of pushing the envelope of safety for 50 fps.


Bore still looks new. I have maybe 250 rounds through it. I don't get the bore hot, but I don't baby it.

The price we pay for laser trajectory..... we might.. maybe.. in 20 years. Need a new barrel. If we shoot benchrest.

That coyote will never know the difference.

 

[RobertFBurnett]

A .30/30 is a barrel burner?

Buying my first 30-30 Tues, in all this discussion I was looking at ammo and came across the 55gr 3400ft/sec Remington Accelerator ammo, if anything could burn it sounds like this stuff? I have heard no one mention this stuff one way or another (Just that most any 150 or 170gr is pretty good.) Any reason to shoot or not shoot paper out of a new 336 with it?

RFB

 

[Tarvis]

Shawnee had the right idea. If you are not a benchrest shooter and don't shoot beyond, say 600 yards, you do not need to worry about trashing a barrel. Some people just don't shoot at small targets at that range. If you aren't a benchrest shooter, burning a barrel should be the absolute least of your worries.

Even the Lilja team agrees that there are too many variables to consider. If THR had a dead horse, this would be it.

What the real answer to the original question is: DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.

end of thread

 

[Zak Smith]

Let's draw a comparison:

If the question is, "Is rifle X more accurate than rifle Y?", and you reply "I don't care as long as they both shoot 2 MOA", then you haven't answered the question. One of the rifles will shoot better; that someone does not care about the answer does not make it untrue.

There are legions of shooters who will never wear out a barrel in even the most overbore cartridges simply because they don't shoot more than a half-dozen, 10 or maybe 20 rounds per year. However, that doesn't mean there are no effects on accurate barrel life, it just means they don't shoot enough to get to that point. Kind of like if you only drive 1/2 mile to the grocery store in your car once a week, it's going to take "forever" to wear out a set of tires and it probably almost doesn't matter what tires you have. However, ask the guy who drives 3000 miles per month which tires work best and last longest and he'll more than likely give you his opinion with some experience behind it.

People who shoot centerfire rifles in competition shoot out barrels regularly, using standard pressure ammunition. A barrel that starts sub-half MOA may degrade dramatically to 1-3 MOA when its throat is toast. The relative accurate life of cartridges commonly used in various centerfire rifle competitions is well known within those communities, and it is ignorant to deny that some cartridges wear out barrels faster than others.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

There is a lot of wishful thinking on this thread.

Regardless of your standard for accuracy, overbore cartridges tend to wear the throat/barrel faster than a cartridge of the same caliber burning less powder. The more the wear, the less the accurate life of the barrel. Accuracy will still degrade. How low or high your standards are is a personal decision.

It's pretty much self-evident that a .22LR barrel lasts longer than .220 Swift, .22-243 Middlestead, or a .22-250 AI, no?

Maybe we don't hear the complaints anymore since less folks shoot now than in the past, others don't shoot a given rifle a lot, and those that do compete or shoot a lot have few qualms about replacing a gun or a barrel.

The use of the rifle comes into play as well. A .264 Win Mag used for hunting can last a lifetime. A .220 Swift shot hot on multiple 1000 round dogtown hunts might last a few seasons.

It's the price of entry for the overbore cartridges. Barrels are like tires, wear items than will need to be replaced at some point.

I think many folks place to much concern on this. Given the cost of overbore cartridges if bought new, or a lot of good components if you reload (especially nowadays), the cost of the barrel is probably much less significant than many folks think.

Think of the cheap $100 A&B barrels midway was selling. And a good Shilen barrel is roughly $300. You can swap a Savage barrel in 20 minutes in your garage. An AR-15 barrel is user replaceable too. It'll cost a bit more if you need a lathe to headspace your rifle, for a gunsmith is needed.

A new custom barrel is usually a HUGE improvement over a factory one. I think the best thing that ever happened to my .22-250 was wearing that crappy Remington barrel out.