Auburn1992
Member
I meant 20-40 for a .243 each month... just a typo. So it would come out to 240-480/year
Barrel Burners?
- Thread starter Auburn1992
- Start date
- Status
Zak Smith
Member
Fine, go ask people who shoot enough 243 and have shot enough 308 to know the difference. 243 is enjoying some popularity in practical long-range rifle competition now. I believe those guys are getting typically 1500-3000 rounds before the groups open up (where in that range does depend on load intensity). 308's generally keep going strong 5000-10000 rounds (mine has about 6000 and still shoots 1/4). I know several local shooters who used to shoot a lot of 7RM for long-range, and those barrels would consistently open up in the 1750 - 2250 round count range.
32winspl
Member
Hell, by this time, nobody will prob even be reading this post, but just in case, here is my 2 cents....
Everything is a trade-off. 1500 rounds of 264 Win Mag or 10,000 (or more) rounds of .44 Russian. Throat- wear and resulting loss of accuracy is going to happen. The only way to keep your throat and barrel pristine is not to shoot it. You want high performance? It's gonna cost you. You satisfied with a lower level of performance? Well, that's gonna cost you too... it'll just take longer. The simple fact is, most people shoot their rifles a few shots a year. A box to sight in when they buy it, a few to check point of aim before they hunt with it, and maybe a couple rounds when they hunt with it. Lets say that amounts to 20 rounds a year for a deer hunter with a .243 Win. Lets further say that the useful accuracy-life for a .243 Win barrel is a low 1500 rounds. That's 75 years! 75 years of good, highly accurate hunting. My Grandson probably will be dead in 75 years. I think we worry way too much about stuff.
But again, everything is a tradeoff. If you want the performance of a 'Vette and you don't mind the fuel consumption, you buy a 'Vette; if efficientcy is your thing, you hang onto your (my) 16 year old 1.5 litre Civic. You just can't have both in one vehicle.
Everything is a trade-off. 1500 rounds of 264 Win Mag or 10,000 (or more) rounds of .44 Russian. Throat- wear and resulting loss of accuracy is going to happen. The only way to keep your throat and barrel pristine is not to shoot it. You want high performance? It's gonna cost you. You satisfied with a lower level of performance? Well, that's gonna cost you too... it'll just take longer. The simple fact is, most people shoot their rifles a few shots a year. A box to sight in when they buy it, a few to check point of aim before they hunt with it, and maybe a couple rounds when they hunt with it. Lets say that amounts to 20 rounds a year for a deer hunter with a .243 Win. Lets further say that the useful accuracy-life for a .243 Win barrel is a low 1500 rounds. That's 75 years! 75 years of good, highly accurate hunting. My Grandson probably will be dead in 75 years. I think we worry way too much about stuff.
But again, everything is a tradeoff. If you want the performance of a 'Vette and you don't mind the fuel consumption, you buy a 'Vette; if efficientcy is your thing, you hang onto your (my) 16 year old 1.5 litre Civic. You just can't have both in one vehicle.
Last edited:
Wildfire
Member
Wow again.
Hey all:
Shawnee, hope you did not get the idea I was refering to you on the food slinging. I agree with your views and have no intensions of even coming close to an argument with any one. I stated that I have never had a barrel burn out on me and that my rifles still shoot 1/4" groups and have had many thousands of rounds down their tubes. I think we all know who the cook was here and I beleive that Auburn should by now have all the info he needs.
I am with you on the practical end of things and do not wish to go down little rabbit trails to confuse others. I'll shoot mine they can shoot theirs and replace barrels every week . Auburn is not an F class shooter and did not ask about their inherent gun problems. Nor is he a bench rest shooter that needs a sharp eye and good mic to see the difference in group size...
Art hit the nail on the head about powders and he was right. Many Myths follow these tails for many years after the problems have long gone away.
It is a fact that barrels wear after firing x amount of bullets down their tubes but, The avarage Joe or Auburn that just wanted a rilfe to wack some varmints and do some target shooting need not be concerned with "F" class shooters ways. So for now i have better things to do, happy shooting.
Hey all:
Shawnee, hope you did not get the idea I was refering to you on the food slinging. I agree with your views and have no intensions of even coming close to an argument with any one. I stated that I have never had a barrel burn out on me and that my rifles still shoot 1/4" groups and have had many thousands of rounds down their tubes. I think we all know who the cook was here and I beleive that Auburn should by now have all the info he needs.
I am with you on the practical end of things and do not wish to go down little rabbit trails to confuse others. I'll shoot mine they can shoot theirs and replace barrels every week . Auburn is not an F class shooter and did not ask about their inherent gun problems. Nor is he a bench rest shooter that needs a sharp eye and good mic to see the difference in group size...
Art hit the nail on the head about powders and he was right. Many Myths follow these tails for many years after the problems have long gone away.
It is a fact that barrels wear after firing x amount of bullets down their tubes but, The avarage Joe or Auburn that just wanted a rilfe to wack some varmints and do some target shooting need not be concerned with "F" class shooters ways. So for now i have better things to do, happy shooting.
RugerOldArmy
Member
Food?
Shawnee
member
Hi Wildfire....
LOLOLOL
No problem - I knew we are on the same page. And, like you, I've got at least one sub-MOA rifle that apparently should have been thrown in the dumpster about 15 years ago. LOLOLOL !
LOLOLOL
No problem - I knew we are on the same page. And, like you, I've got at least one sub-MOA rifle that apparently should have been thrown in the dumpster about 15 years ago. LOLOLOL !
RugerOldArmy
Member
So Shawnee, How many rounds are you claiming? And should your claim carry the weight of Zak Smith's experience?
Should we lay credibility in your stating:
Or should 6mmBR.com's discussion, of the very same .243 cartridge in question, be considered be 'zany' and misguided when they state:
How should a reader reconcile the disparity in the two viewpoints?
Should we lay credibility in your stating:
Or should 6mmBR.com's discussion, of the very same .243 cartridge in question, be considered be 'zany' and misguided when they state:
How should a reader reconcile the disparity in the two viewpoints?
Howard Roark
Member
Give it up Zak
The .243 gives up around 1200 rounds just like a 6.5x284. For LR that is.
We built a 6.5x30 RUM for LR. It lasted 800 rounds before it started throwing nines at 1K. I scoped the throat and there was none left.
The .243 gives up around 1200 rounds just like a 6.5x284. For LR that is.
We built a 6.5x30 RUM for LR. It lasted 800 rounds before it started throwing nines at 1K. I scoped the throat and there was none left.
Shawnee
member
Hi ROA...
LOLOLOL !
If you want to use your .243 barrels for tomato stakes after 1200 rounds I sure won't try to stop you.
If you can't believe a .243 barrel can be sub-MOA after 1200 rounds I recognize bedrock when I run into it.
But if you keep pretending everyone in the Republic (or even 1/10th of 1% of them) burns their .243 barrels out in a year or less and that it is all the fault of the caliber, we're certain to be "agreeing to disagree" again.
And with that said, I cordially invite you to enjoy having the last word on the matter.
LOLOLOL !
If you want to use your .243 barrels for tomato stakes after 1200 rounds I sure won't try to stop you.
If you can't believe a .243 barrel can be sub-MOA after 1200 rounds I recognize bedrock when I run into it.
But if you keep pretending everyone in the Republic (or even 1/10th of 1% of them) burns their .243 barrels out in a year or less and that it is all the fault of the caliber, we're certain to be "agreeing to disagree" again.
And with that said, I cordially invite you to enjoy having the last word on the matter.
RugerOldArmy
Member
Hush! They tell me the overbore cartridge is a myth.
Maybe there is a lot to learn, I must have done stuff wrong all these years, and you too are obviously praying to the wrong god!
In all honesty I WAS suprised by the part that said:
Maybe I dismissed that too quickly. What powders are these? Nothing on that list looks new to me, other than Reloader 25. Is significantly enhanced double the barrel lifetime?
RugerOldArmy
Member
Nobody is talking about time. A year or less matters how much you shoot.
Everybody has consistently made the point of round count. If it takes you years to shoot 1500 rounds, it has no bearing on the discussion of a cartridge being a 'barrel burner', shooting less often doesn't change things.
Wildfire
Member
One more try.
Hey:
I am by no means some sort of expert but, I have fired thousands of rounds thru my .223 Rem. 700 PSS and VS. They both still shoot as well as they did years ago. I run slightly down loaded rounds That I moly coat. No wax. Just the moly. My PSS hates to be cleaned the VS won't shoot unless it is cleaned every 15 or so rounds. But both still shoot 1/4" on the ave. at 100 meters. The moly has allowed me more shots between cleaning. Barrel temp is unknown at this point in time. I have done very serious expiriments with the accuracy of these rifles and found that the moly made no difference in accuracy. But accuracy lasted longer.
About a year ago we looked at the throats of both guns and could not see any wear or burn areas. Every thing looked new. These are stock Remington barrels. I do understand your position on the barrel wear. but as a rule that would be running HOT ammo down the tubes on a regular basis. That would cause barrel wear and I would be shocked if it did not. My Ar-15 has had 8,000 rounds or more thru it and still when scoped shoots 1/2 to 3/4" at 100 depends on me and the day. I would have taken the time to look up the different powders that "claim to be easier on the barrel life but , did not have that info handy. I use AA 2230 in the AR and AA2015BR in the bolt guns.
I do not push these calibers , mild loads seem more accurate in them on my guns. Maybe this helps you see my end a little better. I do not shoot F class and don't care to. I do shoot P-Dogs when I can make the 2000 mile trip.
My best shots have been 726 yards with the .223 PSS. Many were taken under that. I do not go to see how many I can kill rather how far I can do it right. Happy shooting.
Hey:
I am by no means some sort of expert but, I have fired thousands of rounds thru my .223 Rem. 700 PSS and VS. They both still shoot as well as they did years ago. I run slightly down loaded rounds That I moly coat. No wax. Just the moly. My PSS hates to be cleaned the VS won't shoot unless it is cleaned every 15 or so rounds. But both still shoot 1/4" on the ave. at 100 meters. The moly has allowed me more shots between cleaning. Barrel temp is unknown at this point in time. I have done very serious expiriments with the accuracy of these rifles and found that the moly made no difference in accuracy. But accuracy lasted longer.
About a year ago we looked at the throats of both guns and could not see any wear or burn areas. Every thing looked new. These are stock Remington barrels. I do understand your position on the barrel wear. but as a rule that would be running HOT ammo down the tubes on a regular basis. That would cause barrel wear and I would be shocked if it did not. My Ar-15 has had 8,000 rounds or more thru it and still when scoped shoots 1/2 to 3/4" at 100 depends on me and the day. I would have taken the time to look up the different powders that "claim to be easier on the barrel life but , did not have that info handy. I use AA 2230 in the AR and AA2015BR in the bolt guns.
I do not push these calibers , mild loads seem more accurate in them on my guns. Maybe this helps you see my end a little better. I do not shoot F class and don't care to. I do shoot P-Dogs when I can make the 2000 mile trip.
My best shots have been 726 yards with the .223 PSS. Many were taken under that. I do not go to see how many I can kill rather how far I can do it right. Happy shooting.
RugerOldArmy
Member
Wildfire:
Nobody has claimed .223 is overbore. AR's often have chrome line barrels. That is pretty much the same experience we all have.
.223 Rem / 5.56 isn't a 'Barrel Burner'. The cartridge isn't 'overbore'.
My position was that there is more wear with overbore cartridges. Some seemed to disagree in spite of overwhelming evidence.
Nobody has claimed .223 is overbore. AR's often have chrome line barrels. That is pretty much the same experience we all have.
.223 Rem / 5.56 isn't a 'Barrel Burner'. The cartridge isn't 'overbore'.
My position was that there is more wear with overbore cartridges. Some seemed to disagree in spite of overwhelming evidence.
Wildfire
Member
No argument there.
Hey:
I have no argument with that. I'm sure there is . All my point was for Auburn is that he was concerned about something that would not be an issue for his deal. As I said before Drag racers spend a lot of money replacing engines and such. that is an expensive game. The "F: class shooters spend more money on barrels in 5 years then a deer hunter or varmint hunter would in 3 life times. You have a unique deal going as far as the rest of the shooting public is concerned. You also know way to well the cost of playing that game. In your case barrel cost and such is a big deal. But not for Auburn.
Hope you do well with your thing and Auburn does with his.
Hey:
I have no argument with that. I'm sure there is . All my point was for Auburn is that he was concerned about something that would not be an issue for his deal. As I said before Drag racers spend a lot of money replacing engines and such. that is an expensive game. The "F: class shooters spend more money on barrels in 5 years then a deer hunter or varmint hunter would in 3 life times. You have a unique deal going as far as the rest of the shooting public is concerned. You also know way to well the cost of playing that game. In your case barrel cost and such is a big deal. But not for Auburn.
Hope you do well with your thing and Auburn does with his.
RugerOldArmy
Member
Kerf
Member
Anybody remember the...
the Powley Computer from some years back? It was a card board slide rule thingy that was used to work up rifle loads with, and would give you some idea or guesstimation as to the chamber pressure. It would also give the bore ratio of a given cartridge; how many times the case volume would expand in a given bore, which is directly related to how long a barrel will shoot accurately. Accuracy means shooting in the 1s or 2s, or MOA, or Minute OF Moose. Totally your personal call what you mean by accurate.
I won't bore everyone with how many barrels I've burnt out or have seen go south, but we all know how many rounds P. O. Ackley got out of his .22/06 chambering experiment.
Auburn - I'll second a previous posters advice on going with the .244 Remington as a excellent varmint round. Not only does the longer neck help with throat erosion, but it also keeps the bullet aligned with the bore better than the short neck cartridges, IMHO. I would also advise the 1-12 inch twist for the barrel to stabilize the lighter bullet weights up to about 85-90 grs. Cryogenically treating the barrel helps also and is pretty cheap to have done. Cryogenics doesn't help accuracy much but it does prolong barrel life/accuracy. Turn your necks slightly, neck size only, and use a straight line seater (like the Wilson) and all groundhogs (at least out to 400 yds) will fear your name.
Good luck, and I hope my .02s worth is of some use to you.
Kerf
the Powley Computer from some years back? It was a card board slide rule thingy that was used to work up rifle loads with, and would give you some idea or guesstimation as to the chamber pressure. It would also give the bore ratio of a given cartridge; how many times the case volume would expand in a given bore, which is directly related to how long a barrel will shoot accurately. Accuracy means shooting in the 1s or 2s, or MOA, or Minute OF Moose. Totally your personal call what you mean by accurate.
I won't bore everyone with how many barrels I've burnt out or have seen go south, but we all know how many rounds P. O. Ackley got out of his .22/06 chambering experiment.
Auburn - I'll second a previous posters advice on going with the .244 Remington as a excellent varmint round. Not only does the longer neck help with throat erosion, but it also keeps the bullet aligned with the bore better than the short neck cartridges, IMHO. I would also advise the 1-12 inch twist for the barrel to stabilize the lighter bullet weights up to about 85-90 grs. Cryogenically treating the barrel helps also and is pretty cheap to have done. Cryogenics doesn't help accuracy much but it does prolong barrel life/accuracy. Turn your necks slightly, neck size only, and use a straight line seater (like the Wilson) and all groundhogs (at least out to 400 yds) will fear your name.
Good luck, and I hope my .02s worth is of some use to you.
Kerf
Wildfire
Member
Barrel Twist ?
Hey there:
The one experiment that I have never done . BUT , I am wondering if faster twist barrels tend to burn faster ? My .223 PSS and VS have 1 in 14 twist. The are extremely accurate with 40 and 55 grain bullets.
It just seems to me that the faster twist would hold the bullet back longer and maybe cause more barrel burn. Also heavier bullets may do the same thing in a given caliber.
A freind shoots bench rest and uses 112 grain bullets that he makes and 1 in 18 twist in the .30 cal. They are very accurate at 200. One hole. He told me that he does not worry about his barrel. They run at 3000 FPS. .30 cal BR.
Anyway just wondering if some one knows for sure.
Hey there:
The one experiment that I have never done . BUT , I am wondering if faster twist barrels tend to burn faster ? My .223 PSS and VS have 1 in 14 twist. The are extremely accurate with 40 and 55 grain bullets.
It just seems to me that the faster twist would hold the bullet back longer and maybe cause more barrel burn. Also heavier bullets may do the same thing in a given caliber.
A freind shoots bench rest and uses 112 grain bullets that he makes and 1 in 18 twist in the .30 cal. They are very accurate at 200. One hole. He told me that he does not worry about his barrel. They run at 3000 FPS. .30 cal BR.
Anyway just wondering if some one knows for sure.
Tarvis
Member
That was for refrence to competition shooting. The thread author is not a comp shooter and doesn't need to worry about barrel life as much as the website and others are claiming. When all the cards are dealt, the author is getting way to much non-useful information for a new shooter.
Wildfire
Member
Yep.
Hey there:
We "kind of" all agreed on that.
Hey there:
We "kind of" all agreed on that.
USSR
Member
Hmmm, the original question posed by the person who started this thread was,
Don
I would say that he has received some good input from some people who have fired or seen others fire enough rounds in various overbore cartridges, that degraded the level of accuracy thru throat erosion in a relatively short number of rounds (aka barrel burners), to come to an informed conclusion.
Don
Howard Roark
Member
Yes they can. The 1 in 6.5 that it takes to shoot the 90gr .223 bullets in an AR eats itself in half the time of regular accross the course shooting.
Tarvis
Member
FINALLY!!!! Some useful information.
USSR
Member
Yes, but it's not the twist itself that is responsible for this, but rather the use of the bullets (and large amount of slow burning powder) that are suitable for the fast twist.
To quote Boots Obermeyer:
To read the full article: http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_handloading.html
Don
Howard Roark
Member
Heavy bullets are only needed for long range, 1K. The faster the bullet (more powder) the flatter it flies. Wouldn't pushing heavy bullets slowly defeat the purpose? Wouldn't using lighter bullets and over spinning them be counter productive?
If I wanted to talk to Jim Owens I would go over to his house in Enterprise or see him at one of my matches a Ft. Benning. Oh yeah, I've met Boots as well. Both are outstanding individuals.
- Status
