Beginers deer rifle

[akodo]

There isn't a whitetail in existence that will fail to drop from a proper weight 243 bullet but would drop from a 30-30 hitting the same spot.

The 243 will do it out further, with slightly less recoil, and with less adjustment to point-of-aim due to distance.

What the 30-30 has going for it, in a lever action you'll get a faster follow-up shot, and some people think they point better/quicker.

Can a Marlin 30-30 do the job? Yea, but so can a 243 bolt gun....and that same bolt gun can then be taken coyote hunting at any distance as well as pronghorn hunting at all but the longest distances.

And if your Grandson moves (which he probably will, multiple times) he may well end up in a place where whitetail hunting is common but thick woods is not. I can't think of any place in North America were a 243 won't drop the local whitetail.

I see no reason to veer from the 243 bolt gun. A 30-30 lever action (or 30-30 single shot or 30-30 bolt gun) isn't a bad choice. In fact it's a good choice. But 243 is a better choice.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

RWDale is right.
The 243 won't be bad.
6.5x55 for history.
Not a 35 Rem. too much gun for a beginner.
OTOH: the 30-30 (contra Dale) has history, power to spare and 'fun'.
YMMV
Greg

 

[R.W.Dale]

So you think a .243 is just as good of a bush gun as a 12 gauge slug?

Yes better in fact because when you hit those odd open spots in the trees you can actually hit something 100 yds away.

A miss is a miss it doesn't really matter wich way the bullet is deflected. Note how far the 45/70 was knocked off target and how short the test ranges were.

There are brush guns, there are no brush cartridges.

I've had one tiny sprig of weed split a load of buckshot on a deer under 10 yards so wide there were pellets in the lungs farther forward and pellets in the Ham and no pellets in between. In the woods you pick your shots carefully, ensure what your target is and what's in behind AND IN FRONT of it and don't try shooting through crap cause some intarweb expert says you can.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about

 

[PoserHoser]

.260 Remington

 

[michael5446]

I know I'm going to get .243 and 30-30. But I was hoping for something different

exactly...
for now the two most cost effective center fire rounds are .223 and 7.62x39... both are fine for deer... any good kill shot requires practice, practice, practice... get a rifle in one of these and a thousand round can of ammo, you are good to go ))

 

[fpjeepy05]

There isn't a whitetail in existence that will fail to drop from a proper weight 243 bullet but would drop from a 30-30 hitting the same spot.

The 243 will do it out further, with slightly less recoil, and with less adjustment to point-of-aim due to distance.

What the 30-30 has going for it, in a lever action you'll get a faster follow-up shot, and some people think they point better/quicker.

Can a Marlin 30-30 do the job? Yea, but so can a 243 bolt gun....and that same bolt gun can then be taken coyote hunting at any distance as well as pronghorn hunting at all but the longest distances.

And if your Grandson moves (which he probably will, multiple times) he may well end up in a place where whitetail hunting is common but thick woods is not. I can't think of any place in North America were a 243 won't drop the local whitetail.

I see no reason to veer from the 243 bolt gun. A 30-30 lever action (or 30-30 single shot or 30-30 bolt gun) isn't a bad choice. In fact it's a good choice. But 243 is a better choice.

I'm not arguing that a .243 can't do a fine job in ideal situations. Its the less than ideal situations that are tough. What happens if the only shot that you can get, because of brush coverage is a facing away shot or a quartering towards you shot. The first is going to require a head/neck shot or a bullet that can provide extra penetration to go from the hindquarter all the way to the lungs, and the second is going to require a bullet that can do damage after penetration through the front shoulder. Will a .243 do this? Probably. Will it do this on a large deer? Will it do this on a large deer through some light brush? Maybe. Would I feel more confident taking the shot with a 30-06? Probably.

 

[fpjeepy05]

Yes better in fact because when you hit those odd open spots in the trees you can actually hit something 100 yds away.

A miss is a miss it doesn't really matter wich way the bullet is deflected. Note how far the 45/70 was knocked off target and how short the test ranges were.

There are brush guns, there are no brush cartridges.

I've had one tiny sprig of weed split a load of buckshot on a deer under 10 yards so wide there were pellets in the lungs farther forward and pellets in the Ham and no pellets in between. In the woods you pick your shots carefully, ensure what your target is and what's in behind AND IN FRONT of it and don't try shooting through crap cause some intarweb expert says you can.

The 45/70 was not deflected at all. You have to look at where the bullet hit the first target and then look at the second target. Not every bullet was going to hid the orange square.

Buck shot would split cause each pellet is rather small. Much different than a slug.

 

[Steel Talon]

I'm not arguing that a .243 can't do a fine job in ideal situations. Its the less than ideal situations that are tough. What happens if the only shot that you can get, because of brush coverage is a facing away shot or a quartering towards you shot. The first is going to require a head/neck shot or a bullet that can provide extra penetration to go from the hindquarter all the way to the lungs, and the second is going to require a bullet that can do damage after penetration through the front shoulder. Will a .243 do this? Probably. Will it do this on a large deer? Will it do this on a large deer through some light brush? Maybe. Would I feel more confident taking the shot with a 30-06? Probably.

Why would anyone try a Texas heart shot? Even with a TSX or Partition It's a foul shot at best.

A .243 shooting a 95 grain partition to the shoulder itself is not that hard to defeat,or "anchor" the animal

 

[sargents1]

I vote for a Belt Fed M60.
- Low recoil,
- great stopping power.
- Slightly heavy to carry.


Seriously, what is wrong with a .243 Bolt gun OR a 30-30? I have seen both used to effect.

I would prefer the .243 Bolt gun because they have a real safety and some 30-30's just have a half-cock (not ideal for a beginner even if I did start out with one).

 

[BoilerUP]

Why would anyone try a Texas heart shot?

EXACTLY.

Doesn't matter if you're shooting a 223 or a 300WM...that's a shot best left untaken IMO.

On the other hand, a bullet into Mr. Buck's neck just to the left of his ear will make him DRT with damn near any bullet of any centerfire caliber...

 

[Arkansas Paul]

3) When it comes time to grow out it requires another purchase.

If the only animal hunted will be whitetail deer, there's no growing out of either .243 or .30-30. They kill as well as any. I shot a deer at 140 yds with my wife's .243 last year and one this season with my .30-06. They ran about the same distance. You're not undergunned with a .243 or .30-30 as you seem to think. Especially if like you said, the range is going to be no longer than 45 yds. That's where the .30-30 shines man, 150 and in.

 

[jrdolall]

There are a lot of calibers that will do the job on whitetails at 45 yards and, at that distance, it probably makes little difference what you shoot. I see some replies about needing a larger bullet to take a deer that gives you a less than desirable shot and I say that you should not EVER take one of those shots. If the deer does not present a decent broadside or slightly quartering shot then just wait. Shooting a deer in the rear quarters will probably kill the deer but anyone who intentionally takes that shot is, IMHO, unethical. I passed on a 3 yr old 8 pointer this weekend because he was quartering to me at a tough angle and then trotted off through the pines without stopping to give me a good broadside shot. He will be back and I feel better than if I had made a poor shot or missed.
.243 and 30-30 are excellent deer calibers. Both are light recoil and ammo is readily available at any store that sells ammo. There are a lot of other light recoiling guns out there but ammo is not quite as readliy available. The 6.5x55 is excellent but Walmart will not have the ammo. Same with 7mm-08, 22-250, 25-06 and others. Walmart MAY have the ammo as may the little LGS but they will nearly always have the more common calibers. This applies to the low recoil ammo as well since it is not always in every store.
This weekend for opening day we had a guy that thought he put his shells in his gun case but he wound up with no ammo when he got to camp. He was shooting a 30-06 and 3 or 4 guys tried to give him ammo. I always carry an extra box of cheap shells in 30-06, 2.43 and 30-30 in case someone drops a gun and we need to re-sight.

 

[akodo]

I'm not arguing that a .243 can't do a fine job in ideal situations. Its the less than ideal situations that are tough. What happens if the only shot that you can get, because of brush coverage is a facing away shot or a quartering towards you shot. The first is going to require a head/neck shot or a bullet that can provide extra penetration to go from the hindquarter all the way to the lungs, and the second is going to require a bullet that can do damage after penetration through the front shoulder. Will a .243 do this? Probably. Will it do this on a large deer? Will it do this on a large deer through some light brush? Maybe. Would I feel more confident taking the shot with a 30-06? Probably.

Remember, we are contrasting the 243 and the 30-30.

The 30-06 is a heck of a lot more gun than the 243 or the 30-30.

So, for this to have any relevance, tell me of a shot where you think the 30-30 would succeed but the 243 will fail.

 

[Kachok]

So, for this to have any relevance, tell me of a shot where you think the 30-30 would succeed but the 243 will fail.

30-30 has a hella lot more penatration (especaly with 170gr partitions!) so it is by its nature better for off angle or rakeing shots, that said the 243 has never let me down before.

 

[BoilerUP]

The difference in sectional density between the 308 170gr Partition and the 243 100gr Partition is a sectional density of 0.010"...roughly 4%.

Looking at Federal's offerings, the 30-30 170gr load is 2200fps while the 243's 100gr load is 2960fps...25% more velocity.

Rarely does paper ballistics totally match with real-world observations...but the above shows the 30-30 170gr Partition to largely be a wash with the 243 100gr Partition in regards to penetration.

 

[Kachok]

But in the real world we observe that larger calibers of similar SD and bullet construction always penatrate deeper then the smaller ones. This is especaly true at lower speeds such as the 30-30 which can reach supprising levels of penatration given it's modest energy figures. Not alot of "shock cavaty" but it plows through like a John Deer tractor.

 

[targetshooter22]

That's really nice of you to help get someone started in deer hunting. Us deer hunters are a bit of a dwindling breed, and new blood is badly needed. You are doing your fellow sportspeople a great service.

That said, I like the 243, and where I come from, many, many deer met their end from a dirty-thirty as we called 'em. You can't go wrong with either. If you don't like them, in my personal experience, the recoil from a 165 gr 308 in my CZ 550 is very similar to the recoil from a 100 gr 243 in my other CZ 550. Both guns are pretty heavy, and may not be suitable for young or small of stature hunters.

Any chance you could get the new hunter to the range to try out a couple of options from friends and family? Maybe he/she likes levers or bolts or pumps or single shots better and therefore could help make the decision easier? No matter what, I think you would be best off with a really common caliber (e.g. 243, 270, 308, 30-06, 30-30) as in the kind of thing you can buy in a gas station.

Otherwise you could just go big with an 88 Flak.

 

[akodo]

But in the real world we observe that larger calibers of similar SD and bullet construction always penatrate deeper then the smaller ones. This is especaly true at lower speeds such as the 30-30 which can reach supprising levels of penatration given it's modest energy figures. Not alot of "shock cavaty" but it plows through like a John Deer tractor.

I note you are throwing velocity/energy out the window, hence this comparison doesn't hold up. Again, a 30-06 will out perform the 243 in spades.

You have to make the comparison equal in all 3 regards....Sectional Density, Energy, Bullet Construction. Then the only 'variable' is caliber and it's related attributes (i.e. bigger caliber same sectional density means higher overall weight, and because of that, lower overall velocity)

 

[Kachok]

^ I omitted the energy figures because the 30-30 and 243 both push about 2000 ft lbs, so energy is a wash. In that case the advantage in penetration (all else being equal) always goes to the slower, larger caliber. I figure max penetration for a bonded/partitioned 100gr 243 is around the 30" range in 10% BG and the 170gr 30-30 is close to 40" Saw a test the other day where a 180gr 30-06 hit 42" with a 180gr TSX! That is some superb penetration!

 

[fpjeepy05]

Remember, we are contrasting the 243 and the 30-30.

The 30-06 is a heck of a lot more gun than the 243 or the 30-30.

So, for this to have any relevance, tell me of a shot where you think the 30-30 would succeed but the 243 will fail.

Actually it wasn't supposed to be an 243 verses 30-30 discussion. It was a 243 verses over light recoiling caliburs. My suggestions were 44 mag, 45LC +P, 357 max... Good penetration, Good energy transfer, reduced deflection, minimal recoil, availability to go up in power (45LC to 454 or 460) The only downside IMHO is ammo/gun availability, and pumpkin toss trajectory, but under 50 yards that doesn't matter.
I shot 300 whisper during rifle and 50 cal during ML and both put down deer fine. My only concern is confidence, because I felt under confident when I started with 243 and everyone else was shooting 30-06

 

[Abel]

My only concern is confidence, because I felt under confident when I started with 243 and everyone else was shooting 30-06

Half the grown men that I hunt deer with use the 243 to no ill effect that I can see.

 

[jrdolall]

If all shots are under 50 yards then archery seems like a good option.
I don't think there is a "Bad" deer gun for this range. You can't make a deer too dead so a large caliber will work. Pretty much any centerfire rifle will be effective at 50 yds. All kids are different but a light recoil gun that is capable of working in the area he hunts opens up a lot of possibilities from a .223 to a 22-250 to a 243 to a 30-30 and on. After the gun is purchased then it becomes, to me, an issue of ammo availability. Does the local hardware store carry 6.5 Swede? They probably carry 243 and 30-30.
For most hunting applications I would choose the 243 only because of the extended range and the fact that a bolt gun is easier for a kid to use. In all likelihood he will be invited to hunt with someone else in a few years and may need to get out over 200 yards. While the 30-30 will certainly do that, it requires more practice to understand the trajectory than does a 243.

 

[ttheel]

The first rifle that I ever deer hunted with was a Marlin 30-30. I always loved carrying it and sometimes wonder why I still don't. I never had any trouble bringing deer down with it. My first two deer were taken with that gun over 20 years ago, a basket racked 8 point at 90 yards and a big mature 8 point at 30 yards standing over a scrape.

 

[bassdogs]

I love to read thru these type threads and then go back to the original question. In this case, as in many, the issue comes out pretty clear. This is not about the best or even something better, but I suggest it's an uncle / dad that wants to put the kid out in the field with the biggest stick so fellow hunters see him as a real man. Its not the kid who doesn't have confidence in the 243, but rather the dad / uncle who want to be proud when the kid fields a 300 win mag.

I was older when I got into centerfire rifles [lived in a state where you couldn't use them] and bought a 243 and an 06. A close friend who grew up in the woods of Ky always hunted with a 243. I moved here and started practicing with both. To be honest [maybe wimpy] the 06 just kicked my A**. I could lay the 243 on target from short range out to well over 250yds [ran out of space] and there was no recoil flinch. Having seen the pictures and mounts on my friend's wall, there was total confidence that I could drop anything that walked these woods with the 243 and I traded the 06 for a nice 20g pump that my wife could shoot.

I wish people could step back from ?? like this thread and just go out and buy what they want instead of looking for justification from others. Pretty clear here that the others are suggesting the obvious because they are the best choices for the purpose defined here. New youth introduced to hunting for deer, short range NOT rambo heading into the jungle looking for rhino.

 

[inclinebench]

I live in southern appalachia, and it is rare for a shot over about 75 yards unless you are hunting someone's agricultural fields, and even then shots are pretty close. My first deer rifle was a used .30-30, and I still break it out from time to time. I am acutally sending it off to get reblued so that my sons can use it for deer hunting when the time comes. Around here, the .30-30 is just about everyone's first deer rifle, and it is amazing how many guys still use it despite now having .30-06 and .243s in the collection. I know everyone is partial to what they use or used, so I am just another voice in the crowd, but I will suggest a .30-30 to anyone who asks me about a first deer rifle.