Believable but still UNBELIEVABLE

[ATLDave]

If you literally can't understand it, please re-read my post and click the link I included. Incidents like that are where the rule is coming from. Again, I'm not saying I agree. Perhaps you are merely saying that you disagree with the rule, but can understand how they got there.

"Carrying a handgun requires a higher duty of care than casually carrying a backpack with books in it. "

Yes, and driving a car requires a higher level of care than walking down the street, yet people crash cars every single day.

You and I both know that carrying a gun safely isn't actually that difficult (much easier than driving a car, for instance), but these administrators don't know that. They also think incidents of successful use of a firearm in self-defense are so rare as to be mythological - also wrong, but that's what they think.

 

[WrongHanded]

I have questions. I admit to not knowing everything about every gun, and I know especially little about revolvers in particular, but I can find no logic whatsoever in (e).

A hammer rests on an empty chamber. Ok, what exactly does that accomplish? What is it intended to accomplish?

Before internal safeties in revolvers, I believe bumping the hammer could result in a strike to the primer, if a cartridge were present in the top chamber behind the barrel. I'm sure many guns built that way are still in good condition today, and may be being actively carried. The Colt Peacemaker (with which I have no personal experience) has the firing pin on the hammer, and must be kept on an empty cylinder, or at half cock. My understanding is that half cock over a live cartridge is a dangerous proposition for general carry. Others will know more about that old SAA design.

And yes, keeping one chamber empty and that chamber in front of the hammer is the idea. It's also pretty easy to accomplish, and does not effect the speed of use for a revolver (because they always go to the next chamber on the cylinder), just the number of shots available.

Pretty silly and arbitrary rules, that seem hard to enforce without a law allowing "stop and frisk" to inspect concealed handguns.

Edited to correct false information regarding 1980s S&W model 15.

 

[entropy]

Thumb break holster and a model 92fs on safe would be acceptable if one is in the chamber.

Violates (d) which was in bold.

 

[ATLDave]

Before internal safeties such as Ruger's transfer bar system, revolvers came with the firing pin attached to the hammer. I remember having a 1980's S&W Model 15 that was designed this way. From what I recall, it had a counter pressure spring to keep the firing pin from contacting the primer of a cartridge whilst at rest. So I believe bumping the hammer could result in a strike to the primer, if a cartridge were present in the top chamber behind the barrel.

That's not correct.

 

[Rule3]

IT'S SIMPLE!
Just carry a revolver in a holster with a thumb break strap.

Before entering campus property, test fire the revolver discharging one round. Now you have a empty chamber

You just have 4 or 5 rounds left depending on the size of the revolver.

 

[WrongHanded]

That's not correct.

Thank you. I stand corrected. I'll edit my post.

 

[ATLDave]

Of course, if even a reasonable, intelligent, generally well-informed individual such as yourself can make a mistake about the drop-safeness of even a very common type of gun, then the academics' lack of understanding gets more predictable. At the end of the day, they don't think guns are actually useful in self-defense (not really true); they think most loaded guns will discharge if dropped (not true, though not completely false); and they think frequency of people dropping pens and notebooks and cell phones is predictive of the frequency of dropped guns (pretty dubious proposition). Once you understand those errors and part-errors, the rationale of requiring an empty chamber seems more sensible than it is.

Throw on top the fact that movies and TV routinely show cops (or even criminals) racking one into the chamber as a precursor to an immediate confrontation/use of force, and the necessary implication that such characters were carrying with an empty chamber, and one can understand how the academics in question came up with these rules. You'd have to unwind a lot of stuff to get them to see that a different approach makes sense.

 

[huntsman]

Violates (d) which was in bold.

I know and "D" is the one you go to war on,sometimes you just pick your battle.

 

[justice06rr]

This month, Kansas enacted no-permit concealed carry, including concealed carry for those 21 or over at state universities, but each university was allowed to set their own rules for said carry. At my institution this includes:

a) The handgun must be secured in the holster with a strap or by other means of retention.
b) The holster must have sufficient tension or grip on the handgun to retain it in the holster even when subjected to unexpected jostling.
c) Handguns with an external safety must be carried with the safety in the "on" position.
d) Semiautomatic handguns must be carried without a chambered round of ammunition.
e) Revolvers must be carried with the hammer resting on an empty chamber.

Pocket carry in the usual holsters (Uncle Mike's, etc) is also verbotten and the holster must completely cover the trigger. Thus, most of my usual carry holsters and methods are not allowed. And I'm not sure how "c" works in guns that won't allow a safety to go on when unchambered.

This is great and a step in the right direction.

The rules could use a bit of tweaking, but allowing CC on campuses is always a pro in my book. It is understandable that each institution might want to employ their own safety rules that may or may not make sense. But at least you'll have your ccw on you and just need to chamber a round.

 

[kscharlie]

As a Kansas resident, I can say that this legislation was hard-fought and a long time coming. Typical of nearly all liberals everywhere, our media and academia bombarded the public with dire warnings and predictions of "blood running in the streets", "Dodge City and the Old West", etc., ad nauseum. Same crap this country has heard for years regarding anything guns. As for the professors who have left or plan to leave, I say "Don't let the door hit you in the a__ on the way out". Good riddance. It is my hope that we never have any type of incident on a college campus that might require the defensive use of a weapon. But at least there is now a chance for a student and/or a professor to survive a horrific incident. That's a heckuva lot more than they had before.

As for the individual campus "rules" regarding the carrying of a concealed weapon, no loaded chamber in a semi-auto or hammer down on an empty cylinder charge hole in a revolver are just plain stupid, stupid, stupid. Ignoring these rules may not follow policy, but it most certainly is not illegal to do so. If one is carrying concealed, how the hell will anybody else even know that person has a gun? And if, by some chance, the gun was discovered, no way on God's green earth should that person ever unholster and withdraw a firearm to prove that he/she is following the rules.

Lastly, it is my understanding of the law that anyone, state resident or not, who is 21 years of age or older, and can legally possess a handgun in their state of residence, may carry concealed within the borders of the State of Kansas.

 

[BSA1]

If you literally can't understand it, please re-read my post and click the link I included. Incidents like that are where the rule is coming from. Again, I'm not saying I agree. Perhaps you are merely saying that you disagree with the rule, but can understand how they got there.

"Carrying a handgun requires a higher duty of care than casually carrying a backpack with books in it. "

Yes, and driving a car requires a higher level of care than walking down the street, yet people crash cars every single day.

You and I both know that carrying a gun safely isn't actually that difficult (much easier than driving a car, for instance), but these administrators don't know that. They also think incidents of successful use of a firearm in self-defense are so rare as to be mythological - also wrong, but that's what they think.

You don't have the same understanding of the Liberals as I do.

I never underestimate my enemies. And Liberals are my enemy. I refuse to concede to Liberals on issues that limit my ability to defend myself. The first rule of being a Liberal is it is always better being a victim and having a handgun no longer makes you a victim.

Many Liberals know how firearms work. They are not ignorant. They are using a backdoor approach to preventing guns on campus by making rules that make using a handgun so difficult that someone will not carry one.

My wife works for a Government Agency. By Kansas Law she is allowed to bring a handgun into the building with her. However they have set rules in place that if the gun is seen by another person even for a few seconds (for example while taking it off and placing it in the desk drawer at her work station) she can and probably will be terminated. So she chooses to be unarmed as leaving the gun in the vehicle is concern if her vehicle is broken into and the risk of her gun being seen even for a couple of seconds is too great.

I also reject your argument that a student being careless with a backpack means the person will be equally careless with a handgun. In fact the link you posted does not mention that the gun owner was a college student. Nor do you make a correlation between some one dropping handgun in a restaurant in Florida has to do with carrying a handgun on campus in Kansas. Using that type of thinking means since I drop my cellphone occasionally I will drop my handgun occasionally also. Yet the last time I dropped a handgun was over 35 years ago.

If you are uncomfortable carrying a handgun with a round in the chamber then don't do it. Just don't hinder my ability to defend myself by telling me I can't do it.

 

[F-111 John]

In a recent Q&A led by the Campus Police Chief, I couldn't resist asking about the inability to carry with the hammer resting on a loaded chamber or to carry a semi "cocked and locked", referencing the post-1970 drop-safe revolver and semi designs.

His response was something along the lines of "I didn't know that revolvers and semis were drop-safe and there were several expert gun guys on the committee who made up these rules and the question never came up."

I'd love to ask the Campus Police Chief how his officers carry.

 

[ATLDave]

You don't have the same understanding of the Liberals as I do.

I suppose that's true, in that our understanding is not the same. I think the claim that you understand liberals better than I do is pretty rich, but we'd have to compare a lot of life experiences in order to get there.

Many Liberals know how firearms work. They are not ignorant.

Yes, many liberals know how firearms work. They tend to be the liberals who aren't anti-gun. The anti-gun folks are generally quite ignorant, and, oddly, wear their ignorance as a badge of pride. They think knowing about firearms is "dirty" knowledge.

They are using a backdoor approach to preventing guns on campus by making rules that make using a handgun so difficult that someone will not carry one.

I'm sure the administrators in question here would be satisfied with that result. But they could have made things a lot more onerous, such as requiring X hours of safety training (or anti-gun indoctrination), all kinds of special permitting/registration requirements, etc. Instead, they appear just to have adopted the rules that someone convinced that guns frequently fall out of holsters and then discharge would adopt. That's not accurate, but it's a common belief and requires the imputation of no great malicious scheme to explain.

I also reject your argument that a student being careless with a backpack means the person will be equally careless with a handgun.

That's not MY argument at all. As I have said repeatedly, these are not the rules I would have written. I have merely said that a few simple factual errors by the administrators would make these rules look very reasonable.

If you are uncomfortable carrying a handgun with a round in the chamber then don't do it. Just don't hinder my ability to defend myself by telling me I can't do it.

Again, I'm not telling you anything of the sort. These aren't my rules, and I wouldn't have made them. I'm just trying to explain what the fairly obvious reasoning behind them is so that the OP and others can understand what pieces of information they will need to supply/points they will need to argue in order to have these rules revised. I'm quite sure that just shouting at the administrators that they are "evil liberals" and that you know your rights won't produce the desired result.

 

[Kendahl]

I read Kansas State's rules because I was a physics graduate student there. It's obvious that the administrators are much more afraid of unintentional discharges than of compromised self defense. In their defense, I would point out that they have to take into account the lowest common denominator. Years ago, at the old Denver airport, a baggage handler was killed by a loaded single action revolver inside a duffel bag. A police officer in my city was shot in the butt by a .25 ACP pistol in his back pocket. The rules about safeties are illogical and, if the handgun is a 1911, physically impossible (hammer down, safety on). Overall, the rules have the least detrimental effect on double action revolvers. I think a handgun with an internal hammer, carried in a pocket holster with retention (e.g. Recluse), would satisfy the rules.

Even if you comply with their safety procedures for carry and storage, there still are restrictions which could make routine carry impractical.

• No weapons of any kind may be carried at off-campus university activities.
• Carry may be prohibited temporarily in areas as long as legally required security measures are instituted. (The burden of security measures should discourage frivolous use.)
• Carry may be prohibited in areas where access is limited to authorized personnel by keys, key cards, entry codes, etc. (There are many such areas to which faculty, staff and graduate students need access to do their jobs.)
• Handguns may not be stored in offices, labs, classrooms or facilities. The only authorized places are your locked personal vehicle and, if you live on campus, your personal living space.

As a graduate student, I shared an office with other students and did my research in a lab whose door was kept locked. If carry was prohibited inside my lab, I would have had to go out to my car to store my gun every time I needed to enter the lab.

 

[RPZ]

The idiotic part I see - item E doesn't enhance safety at all, and doesn't slow down the first shot at all. Item D, while sounding like the same rule, incumbers the first shot significantly, putting students at risk, and also doesn't increase safety at all.

I don't go over to WSU often, but I have taken a few seminar courses for continuing ed credits. Guess I'll have to remember to carry my 327 Sp101, still have 5 shots with one left empty.

I open carried a bit while I was at kstate, even over a decade ago open carry wasn't prohibited by law, and was only precluded by the campus conduct code for specific buildings. I had a list of which buildings actually included the restriction in their policies, and which didn't. Once we passed CC in Kansas, they posted no beretta signs, which by default became public notice of building policy. It's obviously a bright new world when legal CC is brought into the mix.

Reminding here - Kansas concealed carry is only open to those over age 21. However, universities are filled with traditional students, ages 17-18 in their first year and only 21 for one year as seniors, and non-trads and grad students make up only a small portion of the population. I saw the stats for some of the universities when the bill was before the house, the proportion of seniors, non-trads, and grads over 21 are smaller in total than the freshman classes. We're talking about a very small subset of the population who can legally carry on campus...

Take note also, these rules like those listed by the OP are university regulations, not state law. Getting expelled is a legitamate punishment in itself, but it's a lot less weighty than a felony firearms charge for breaking state carry laws.

But the continual exposure of 17-18 year olds to people carrying will be a good thing in the long run. Many of them might get curious, and look forward to later exercising their right too.

 

[Varminterror]

But the continual exposure of 17-18 year olds to people carrying will be a good thing in the long run. Many of them might get curious, and look forward to later exercising their right too.

It shouldn't be any more contact than they get anywhere else in their lives, and no more apparent - it's concealed carry, after all, not "tell the kid sitting in class next to you that you're carrying."

What I really want to be clear on, these policies are University policies, not Kansas's State policies (not to be confused with "Kansas State's" as in Kansas State University), so when you see these policies which are OBVIOUSLY ignorant to firearms operation and safety - that is NOT the State of Kansas, it's some liberal policy maker at the Universities. Kansas law makers have been doing a nice job in the last decade of improving and clarifying the Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act, as well as simplifying much of our state hunting laws - overall, we've always been a firearms friendly state, but our state is making great efforts to prevent counties and municipalities from being unfriendly, and making great efforts to be even MORE firearms friendly overall. We had been a concealed carry prohibited state (I have heard) since Kansas became a state in 1861, then after passing in 2005, we have enhanced to a "no permit required" concealed carry state within a decade. Two short years later, the state forced the rest of the hold-out institutions to schitt or get off of the pot, sunsetting their exemptions, like those for the Universities.

These policies were written by the Universities in a last minute scramble. The majority of these folks assumed the State would always extend their exemption, and when the State pointed out their exemptions were ending, they didn't spend time researching or hiring professionals, they wrote whatever they could come up with to restrict the carry opportunity as much as possible. Even smaller inner-University factions, like the KU football team, punted on coming up with restrictive policies without considering the rights of their students - the football players aren't allowed to carry as part of team policy. The coach came out stating these kids are exposed to a lot of stress and are incredibly competitive, and (paraphrasing a bit) he claimed any time you add a gun to that mix, it's a recipe for disaster. After my collegiate sports career, I can appreciate that sentiment - those kids are willing to all but kill each other to get ahead on the team or in their sports career, but I can't agree with a paradigm where the coach would restrict their Bill of Rights promised rights, and their Kansas State endorsed and protected rights, just because he doesn't trust his players. University policy makers are trying to protect themselves any way they can - statistics were thrown around which suggest more students will die in the next decade due to ND's than would be at risk of a school shooter - and of course a school shooter situation is one event where the University is liable for failing to protect the students from ONE event, whereas a number of ND deaths due to University endorsed campus carry is much less defensible, and multiple defenses will cost more than ONE, if they'd even have it - there are policy makers out there selling this kind of logic; they're certain someone is going to die on every one of these campuses in the future due to ND's. Of course, they're also neglecting how many firearms have been stored on campus, or how many students have been carrying concealed firearms to class over the last decade it has been legal to carry in Kansas, both being against university policy, and all without ND deaths...

The unfortunate reality, of course, is that it is very easy and fast for the Universities to change policy whenever they want. If there's an ND event, illegal altercation shooting, a bystander injured during a defensive shooting situation, or ANY other excuse, the Universities are able to change their policy much faster than a State could change laws. So while we don't like what we see in some of these policies, a guy has to be glad they're complying with the Kansas State mandate, and be wary of a backslide in the aftermath of some firearms event in the future.

 

[Zerodefect]

With all of the other wins, I don't see this as being that bad of a trade off.

If your school is ghetto at night, carry with a round in the chamber anyways. Nobody's going to check.

 

[RPZ]

It shouldn't be any more contact than they get anywhere else in their lives, and no more apparent - it's concealed carry, after all, not "tell the kid sitting in class next to you that you're carrying."

They will know that some are carrying, and will learn that generally when people are carrying nothing happens. And hopefully in the event something does happen, they will see a positive outcome.

On campuses where open carry is allowed, the exposure will be more so.

 

[Varminterror]

Open carry status hasn't changed at any of the Kansas universities. Open carry has always been legal at the state universities (I open carried at KState before Kansas even allowed ANY concealed carry anywhere in the state), and remains to be prohibitable in the buildings by policy.

 

[Varminterror]

If your school is ghetto at night, carry with a round in the chamber anyways. Nobody's going to check.

If I killed my neighbor in his house down the road, out in the country, nobody is going to catch me. But that's illegal too.

 

[RPZ]

The empty chamber auto pistol is a nuisance, and possibly deadly. Mitigating that, one should be mentally prepared to chamber a round in a quick, deliberate and fluid movement after the draw, so that the pistol going into battery coincides with presentation sight picture. The IDF used to do this - don't know whether they still carry with empty chambers.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I don't understand why this is so difficult. All public universities/colleges in Colorado have been forced to honor legal concealed carry since March 2012 with very few restrictions- no carry in traditional dorms (how many over 21 live in the traditional dorms?) and carry can be restricted at events with security (football games, large concerts, etc). With the CU system, It really has been a non-event, with only one ND by an idiot staffer just after the law went onto effect causing minor injury. My wife works at CU, and can sometime need to access her facilities at odd hours. It's appropriate that either she can carry, or I can escort as we see fit without running afoul of do-gooder laws.

 

[Girodin]

Its unfortunate that the let institutions come up with arbitrary rules made by largely unaccountable folks. Even more so given the political leanings of those likely to be making decisions at a university. Would have been better to simply have the requirements be the same as else were in the state.

a) The handgun must be secured in the holster with a strap or by other means of retention.

The requirement for retention makes sense for open carry but much less of a concern for concealed. Ironically it will likely lead to folks using serpa holsters which are arguably less safe. The need for a retention holster limits carry options. I typically carry appendix and I'm not immediately aware of a retention holster for that.

b) The holster must have sufficient tension or grip on the handgun to retain it in the holster even when subjected to unexpected jostling.

This seems to describe any holster I would use.

c) Handguns with an external safety must be carried with the safety in the "on" position.

I personally would just deal with this through weapon choice. There are a couple of guns I own that I would not carry with the safety on if I were to carry them. There are others that I would carry with the safety on. Where this seems kind of annoying is if I am carrying a gun that the safety prevents the slide from being cycled. So I have to unsafe the gun to chamber a round since I'm forced to carry on an empty chamber. I just wouldn;t carry a gun like that.


d) Semiautomatic handguns must be carried without a chambered round of ammunition.

This pretty objectionable for reasons already stated by others. I'm sure that officer's department doesn't carry their sidearms that way. If I were to carry a semi and be forced to carry it this way I guess I'd work on my Israeli carry drills.

e) Revolvers must be carried with the hammer resting on an empty chamber.

This just seems silly. Unless someone is carrying something like an old single action there is no need and it doesn't do anything but deprive one of an extra round in a limited capacity weapon. I might prefer to carry a revolver this way to an empty chamber semi. There is no change in manual of arms you are just down a round. Its still simply a matter of drawing a firing. I currently only carry a revolver in the woods but I might go for a revolver if I was subject to these restrictions. It seems preferable to an empty chamber.

The sad thing is that having been involved in drafting and getting legislation passed or defeated I can tell you there are many many decision makers who are clueless and completely unwilling to be educated or even really listen to anyone that might know something about the issue.

There are places where campus carry has been going on for more than a decade without issue. I believe the University of Utah lost its law suit to prevent people from carrying on campus more than 10 years ago. I am not aware of any issues there (or at any of the other state schools).

 

[BSA1]

I read WSU Firearms Policy and cherry picked the most juicy part of it. The policy was made by the Kansas Board of Regents. This policy is anti-2A persons dream when they are forced to allow firearms in their business / place of employment. The only thing missing is totally banning ammunition on campus altogether.

Policy Statement:

A. Beginning July 1, 2017, any individual who is 21 years of age or older and who is
lawfully eligible to carry a concealed handgun in Kansas shall not be precluded from
doing so on the Wichita State University campus except in buildings and public areas of
buildings for which adequate security measures are provided, as restricted in this policy
or Kansas Board of Regent’s policy, and except as otherwise prohibited by law.

Definitions:

1. Weapons, firearms, explosives and other hazardous objects or substances covered by this
policy shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

(c) any BB gun, pellet gun, air/C’02 gun, blow gun, or any device, such as a Taser, which is designed to discharge electric darts or other similar projectiles; however, personal self-defense stun guns that do not fit with the preceding definition shall not be deemed to be a weapon for the purposes of this policy;

6. “Concealed” means completely hidden from view and does not reveal the weapon in any way, shape, or form.

10. Weapons other than concealed handguns, as defined and allowed above, are not permitted
on University property unless in the possession of a law enforcement officer, armored car security personnel, or private security pre-approved by the Chief of the University Police Department.

12. Handguns carried by individuals, whether on their person or in a carrier, must be secured in a holster that completely covers the trigger and the entire trigger guard area and that secures an external hammer in an un-cocked position through the use of a strap or by other means.

Handguns with an external safety must be carried with the safety in the “on” position.

The holster must have sufficient tension or grip on the handgun to retain it in the holster even when subjected to unexpected jostling.

Semiautomatic handguns must be carried without a chambered round of ammunition.

Revolvers must be carried with the hammer resting on an empty cylinder.

14. Any employee or student of the university who violates one or more provisions of this policy shall be subject to discipline in accordance with applicable university codes of conduct.

 

[BSA1]

"Open carry status hasn't changed at any of the Kansas universities. Open carry has always been legal at the state universities (I open carried at KState before Kansas even allowed ANY concealed carry anywhere in the state)..."

That is not how I am reading WSU Policy:

10. Weapons other than concealed handguns, as defined and allowed above, are not permitted on University property unless in the possession of a law enforcement officer, armored car security personnel, or private security pre-approved by the Chief of the University Police Department.

We obviously have some work to do in the State Legislature mandating more common sense firearms policies in the Universities. Either that or a huge lawsuit victory for a rape victim or someone who was beaten and left permanently disabled and was unable to use their firearm to defend herself because she could not chamber a round when being attacked and raped or beaten.