Ok, I've decided to turn my old mod 66 snubby into a proverbial 'belly gun'. I've dehorned the hammer and removed the bulky adj rear sight. I'm contemplating removing the front sight also. I notice alot of 'snubbys' come stock with no rear sight , but still have the front sight on it. At best a snubby as a BUG is by design and purpose, an up close, last resort (you've lost use of your primary gun) BUG and sighting is moot. Col Askins and Skeeter Skeleton have described belly guns use, anyone else?
Belly Guns
- Thread starter GeneC
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BluesBear
member
Nnnnno
They may have a fixed rear sight, which is cut into the topstrap, but there is a sight there.
You're telling me the groove that runs down the top of the Ruger sp101, S&W Airlite Ti, mod 10,36,37,38,60,64,65ls,317,337,442,640,642,649, Taurus 82,85, et al is the fixed rear sight? Hmm, I thought a fixed sight (as apposed to adjustable) was still raised and added to the gun. So what'd be the sight picture and where'd that be on the target? The entire front sight covering the target? Come on, wouldn't looking down the groove on the top of the barrel just be ' sighting down the barrel'? My point's that by design, which is in the heat of the moment , just before a BG cuts you or shoots you or strikes you , you pull your belly gun, stick it in his ribs and fire, sights on a belly gun is as useful as teets on a boar hog.
sgt127
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2003
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The fixed sights, as on a mod. 10, are very real sights. By removing the entire sighting system it would seem that you limit the usefulness of your belly gun to the Jack Ruby school of combat marksmanship, however, if that works for you, more power to you. Not much to snag.
BluesBear
member
Yeppers!
Did you honestly think that the Ruger sp101, S&W Airlite Ti, mod 10,36,37,38,60,64,65ls,317,337,442,640,642,649, Taurus 82,85, et al had no rear sight?
Nope
Actually it's not the "groove" that it the sight. The groove just is a clearance cut. The actual rear sight notch is the "pinched" looking part as shown here on a S&W model 58.
You use it just as you would any sight. It is a square notch and you get the exact same sight picture as you do with the S&W micrometer target sights.
Colt Single Action Revolvers as well as early double action Colt and S&W revolvers had a U notch rear sight. But they look similar to the one shown above.
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BluesBear
member
This shows a better perspective.
You can see the square notch and the clearance cuts.
Even at 10 feet sights are important. Especially your front sight. Over 20 feet sights are VERY important.
I would never consider the rear sight on a S&W K-frame as "bulky". A 2½" K-frame is suprisingly accurate. Why deprive yourself of the capability of shooting at longer ranges by removing the sight?
If you're worried about it snagging just round off the edges of the sight blade.
Better to have the sights and not need them than to need them and not have them.
You can see the square notch and the clearance cuts.
If you've lost control of the situation to this degree then I'll agree that sights are pretty much useless. You should have taken action long before now because your chances of survival are not very good. If you're close enough to stick it in his ribs you're already bleeding.
Even at 10 feet sights are important. Especially your front sight. Over 20 feet sights are VERY important.
I would never consider the rear sight on a S&W K-frame as "bulky". A 2½" K-frame is suprisingly accurate. Why deprive yourself of the capability of shooting at longer ranges by removing the sight?
If you're worried about it snagging just round off the edges of the sight blade.
Better to have the sights and not need them than to need them and not have them.
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We must be missing something in translation , or something. A belly gun, as described by men who've actually been in armed confrontations is used in 99% of real life situations, where you didn't lose control of a situation, you never had control, you're just reacting to a fella who just walked up and asked you for the time, or directions or a light, but before you can answer, he's pulled a gun or a knife on you, or for some other reason that in real life, the BG actually got the drop on you( some people better realize that sometimes the BG gets the upper hand). Or you're in countless situations where you've been forced to draw your primary weapon and it has malfunctioned beyond tap,rack,bang, so in an attempt to gain control of a situation that's just went out of your control, you resort to your back up gun, which in my example , is a dehorned revolver with no sights and yes I might be bleeding , but I'm gonna empty my pistol before I bleed out, and I might just survive. There's the lady who woke up one night with a BG on top of her, raping her. She reached into her nite stand , pulled her revolver, stuck it to the mans ribs and emptied her gun in him. He died on top of her. As far as Jack Ruby, this is nothing of the sort. If you watch the film again, he raised the pistol to eye level and shot. Btw, Col Askins and Skeeter , who're in gun fights in the mean streets and border patrol was way before Ruby. Gamblers and alot of people carried belly guns in the old West. There's even evidence of flintlock belly guns in the Revolutionary times. A groove cut in the barrel is still just sighting down the barrel. Yes , a fixed sight is a separate sight and is distinguished from an adjustable sight and no, those snubbies do not have fixed rear sights. They're designed to sight down the barrel. So, if I wanted to order a new fixed sight for my sp101, who'd I order it from and what'd be the part #?
One of the neatest "Belly Guns" I ever saw for sale was a Colt .32 New Police model that had been cut down to a 1 inch barrel, the hammer bobbed, the trigger guard front removed with a skeleton grip filler and ivories.
Looked like a pimped out Elliot Ness ankle rig. I wanted it bad.. couldn't make the sale happen. If I ever see that come up at auction again I'm gonna bid big.
Colt's custom shop made quite a few "fitz" specials for law enforcement, and that's just what they were.. big bore belly guns.
Looked like a pimped out Elliot Ness ankle rig. I wanted it bad.. couldn't make the sale happen. If I ever see that come up at auction again I'm gonna bid big.
Colt's custom shop made quite a few "fitz" specials for law enforcement, and that's just what they were.. big bore belly guns.
Sistema1927
Member
It is important to not underestimate the accuracy of small fixed sight snub nosed revolvers.
Just yesterday my Dad and I were at the range with a bag full of guns, and after we had done the standard drills at 21 ft. into an IPSC target (everything in the A zone) with our pocket guns, we decided to take turns shooting at a soda can that was at the back of the berm, about 50-60 yds. down range.
He was shooting a Charter Arms Bulldog, and I was using a S&W M37. We were seated and had a bench to rest our elbows on, but we were able to hit the can about 2 rounds out of each cylinder, and the other shots were awfully close. We were using 148 HBWC reloads. The biggest detriment to short barrelled weapons is the sight radius, they will shot true if you can get your old eyes to work.
Just yesterday my Dad and I were at the range with a bag full of guns, and after we had done the standard drills at 21 ft. into an IPSC target (everything in the A zone) with our pocket guns, we decided to take turns shooting at a soda can that was at the back of the berm, about 50-60 yds. down range.
He was shooting a Charter Arms Bulldog, and I was using a S&W M37. We were seated and had a bench to rest our elbows on, but we were able to hit the can about 2 rounds out of each cylinder, and the other shots were awfully close. We were using 148 HBWC reloads. The biggest detriment to short barrelled weapons is the sight radius, they will shot true if you can get your old eyes to work.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Baloney. Plenty of people carry snub-nosed revolvers as primary guns.
ChristopherG
Member
Here, here. Snubs with fixed sights can do things. I like shooting steel plates--there's a rack of 6" plates at my range--from 15 or 20 yards, with a 1 & 7/8 inch barrel and that little gutter sight.
But there is a place that makes a 'fixed sight conversion' deal, isn't there? I've seen it online, but don't remember the name or address--does someone else?
(but for heaven's sake, don't even dream of removing your front sight!)
PS--it was a 66 in the first post, but it changed into a ruger at some point. Que?
But there is a place that makes a 'fixed sight conversion' deal, isn't there? I've seen it online, but don't remember the name or address--does someone else?
(but for heaven's sake, don't even dream of removing your front sight!)
PS--it was a 66 in the first post, but it changed into a ruger at some point. Que?
BluesBear
member
Welcome Aboardâ„¢, isp2605.
We hope you like it here.
You made a valid point there.
I think you'll fit in just fine.
By the way, New guy buys the ammo.
As for this thread...
others have said it more astutely than I ever could. EVen with pictures.
Sorry but I really don't care about or have time for stupid folks. Folks got a right to be wrong, stupid or both.(sm 05-06-04)
It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. (Baba Louie 09/29/03)
There's two things that you can't argue with, The Laws of Nature and an Idiot. (Keith A. Drury 08/28/73)
We hope you like it here.
You made a valid point there.
I think you'll fit in just fine.
By the way, New guy buys the ammo.
As for this thread...
others have said it more astutely than I ever could. EVen with pictures.
Sorry but I really don't care about or have time for stupid folks. Folks got a right to be wrong, stupid or both.(sm 05-06-04)
It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. (Baba Louie 09/29/03)
There's two things that you can't argue with, The Laws of Nature and an Idiot. (Keith A. Drury 08/28/73)
Walosi
Member
I was raised on "belly guns". My dad servedwith the Border Patrol in the mid '20s until 1930, and he carried a cut-down 1917 Smith. Bobbed hammer, 2 1/4" barrel, round butted. A smith in Tuscon used to make them for the local LEOs who were shooters. As for the type being good only for "up close and personal", they are the ultimate in down and dirty, snatch and shoot guns. They can do far more. My dad and his cronies used to make cans hop out to 50 yds. with these snubbies on steroids. Your terminology needs some relocation- "Fixed sights" and "adjustable sights" on autos are usually seperate parts, mounted in a dovetail. Fixed sights on a revolver are as pictured above, a regular square notch sight, milled into the frame, with a groove down the topstrap for visual clearance. This was the common rear sight for years before the adjustable sights became popular, and it remained on service revolvers. These guns are still manufactured, and once regulated, and used with the ammo they were regulated to, are just as accurate and useful as the adjustable-sighted revolver that is sighted in once, and never touched afterward (including most of mine). If you would care to go $50 per shot, at 50 yards, bring your front-sight-only 66 to Kentucky and I'll match it against my little 649. I need to get some kale together for the new S&W M 21-4
I have on occasion dropped six out of six shots into the middle of an FBI silhouette target at a measured 100 yards – using an old “pencil barreled†Colt Detective Special – with sights of course.
On another occasion I examined a Colt Police Positive Special/nickel plated/pearl gripped and cased. It was notable because the 1½ inch barrel didn’t have a front sight. I observed that someone with a hacksaw had ruined a very fine revolver, but the owner produced a letter from Colt that proved that it was originally made that way.
Colt produced a small quantity of revolvers, including some Single Action Army's, without a front sight. These of course were on special order. A lot more were cut down by frontier gunsmiths for customers that wanted a close-up hideaway.
That said, you can do a lot more with a sighted snubby then one that doesn’t have them, and at no loss in fast drawing or shooting.
Personally I wouldn’t use a S&W Combat Magnum as a basis for this kind of Belly Gun. It would be wiser to start with Colt that didn’t have the ejector rod latched at the front. My friend, the late Bill Jordan, preferred “J†frame Smith’s for this kind of thing, but he kept the sights as they were. He did however, have a 2 ½†model 19 that had the corners rounded off the rear sight blade and the hammer de-spurred. Out of a belt holster he was right fast!
The King of the Belly Gun Builders was John H. (“Fitz†to his friends) FitzGerald who worked for Colt. His modifications consisted of shorting the butt and rounding the corners, cutting off the hammer spur, cutting off the front of the trigger guard, and reducing the barrel to 1 ½ - 2 inches. The ones done by Colt usually had a front sight of sorts. These were intended to be carried in one’s front side pants pocket and took hardly any time at all to get one into action. If someone wanted to duplicate such a gun today without using a Colt, Taurus offers some interesting possibilities in .44 and .45 calibers as well as .357 Magnum.
On another occasion I examined a Colt Police Positive Special/nickel plated/pearl gripped and cased. It was notable because the 1½ inch barrel didn’t have a front sight. I observed that someone with a hacksaw had ruined a very fine revolver, but the owner produced a letter from Colt that proved that it was originally made that way.
Colt produced a small quantity of revolvers, including some Single Action Army's, without a front sight. These of course were on special order. A lot more were cut down by frontier gunsmiths for customers that wanted a close-up hideaway.
That said, you can do a lot more with a sighted snubby then one that doesn’t have them, and at no loss in fast drawing or shooting.
Personally I wouldn’t use a S&W Combat Magnum as a basis for this kind of Belly Gun. It would be wiser to start with Colt that didn’t have the ejector rod latched at the front. My friend, the late Bill Jordan, preferred “J†frame Smith’s for this kind of thing, but he kept the sights as they were. He did however, have a 2 ½†model 19 that had the corners rounded off the rear sight blade and the hammer de-spurred. Out of a belt holster he was right fast!
The King of the Belly Gun Builders was John H. (“Fitz†to his friends) FitzGerald who worked for Colt. His modifications consisted of shorting the butt and rounding the corners, cutting off the hammer spur, cutting off the front of the trigger guard, and reducing the barrel to 1 ½ - 2 inches. The ones done by Colt usually had a front sight of sorts. These were intended to be carried in one’s front side pants pocket and took hardly any time at all to get one into action. If someone wanted to duplicate such a gun today without using a Colt, Taurus offers some interesting possibilities in .44 and .45 calibers as well as .357 Magnum.
Leadbutt
Member
Okay , your going to turn the 66 in to a more user friendly belly gun, for the rear sight go to Clynder& slide and pick up there fixed combat sight for the wheel gun, then spend the bucks and have some one dehorn all sharp edges, stay away from any of the rubber grips, to tacky, and will stick to clothing, go for a set of gun fighter grips from Eagle or their SS type, or just use the issue and add a grip adapter.
Wow, this unbelievable, seems that some people will just jump on a thread and pop off just to be popping off. Must have too much time on their hands. I don't know which is worse, those that don't even read the post , but respond to what they THINK the poster said or those that do and still take things out of context. This thread and posting thing is pretty simple, isn't it? If when you read the title and have something good to contribute, you respond, right? What about the rules of personal attacks, do they not apply here? ISP, not only do I own several guns, but have a CCW lisense as well and have not so much as a parking ticket, so I'll probaly continue to own them. Standingwolf, If you actually read what you quoted, especially the part where I said "snubbys that were being used as a back up gun" would be employed as a last resort, because IN THAT CASE, you lost your primary weapon. I wasn't saying that snubbies weren't used as primary weapons. Heck, I carry one all the time. Chirstopher, you noticed the gun changed from a 66 to a Ruger , but don't see HOW or WHY it did that? Don't feel bad , neither did Blues bear. If you two go back and read the first post, I was talking about the adj sights on my 66, but then observed how alot of snubbies are sold stock without the adj sights( as opposed to some that do). Sgt127, Jack Ruby school of combat marksmanship? Ha, ha..at best an oxymoron, as that's not combat nor marksmanship. That's assassination, plain and simple. To the others, I can appreciate target shooting on a range, shooting things out to 50 yards with a snubby, but I'm talking about something entirely different. The topic is belly guns and the whole history and concept behind it. Thanks to Dr Rob and Old Fuff, I'd love to handle a Fitz special and I'd never dream of removing my front sight, but I read where Col Askins said that J frames were too hard to control in heated confrontations. I took it that they're too small and tended to be fumbled. I tend to agree. I have an old Colt Detective Special and a Ruger sp101 and this mod 66. I like the 66 and can manipulate much better. Btw, Walosi, my families in Eastern Ky , in Hyden (Couchs), never heard of Auburn.
I suppose the real question is what is GAINED by removal of perfectly adequate sights? The groove on my SP-101 couldnt be made any smoother to draw than it already is. I guess i just don't get the point.
FYI, Disagreeing with someone isn't a "personal attack".
FYI, Disagreeing with someone isn't a "personal attack".
BluesBear
member
For those who don't/can't read
Nothing personal, but you said it not us...
:banghead:
Nothing personal, but you said it not us...
:banghead:
"ISP, not only do I own several guns, but have a CCW lisense as well and have not so much as a parking ticket, so I'll probaly continue to own them. "
So happy you have a clean driving record. However, I fail to see any corrolation between parking tickets and knowledge of firearms. I must have missed that in all my training.
The rest of your comment only reflects you have "X" number of guns, not that you know anything about them. Possession does not equate to knowledge of anything. Bluesbear pretty well nailed it.
So happy you have a clean driving record. However, I fail to see any corrolation between parking tickets and knowledge of firearms. I must have missed that in all my training.
The rest of your comment only reflects you have "X" number of guns, not that you know anything about them. Possession does not equate to knowledge of anything. Bluesbear pretty well nailed it.
BluesBear
member
Nor does it indicate a knowledge of geography.
Albany is in Clinton county, down on the 'tuckasee border. And not really all that far from Leslie county.
Albany is in Clinton county, down on the 'tuckasee border. And not really all that far from Leslie county.
Gentlemen, can we just talk about belly guns and the concepts behind their inception? This idle banter is getting old. C. Yeager, I'd just as soon not talk about sights at all. My point about sights was that "IN THE CONTEXT OF BELLY GUNS", sights are moot. I just don't agree that a groove cut in the barrel to aid in sighting is not a fixed sight, such as one you can buy from Heinie or Novak and instal. Btw, making a disparaging remark about someone because you disagree is a personal attack. Bluesbear, I still don't get your point. I still do notice alot of snubbies are sold with no rear (adj) sight. I was talking about adj sights, you took it out of context. You're trying to tell me the groove is a fixed sight, I disagree. To me, a fixed sight is a non-adj sight that can be bought and installed. Semantics really, but this little detail has gotten way away fron the intent of the thread. Isp, again you miss inference and take things out of context. I was reponding to your disparaging remark about I shouldn't be allowed to own guns. "Not so much as a parking ticket" means I have no criminal background (the only thing that'd prevent me from owning guns)and will continue to be allowed and will own guns.
Walosi
Member
I think this entire thread is mostly a result of tangle terminology. Still, removing the adjustable sight on a 66 snub solves nothing, and creates an unnecessary problem. You would be much better served with a model 65 with a bobbed hammer. My own version of "best in belly guns" is my 640-1, with a Big Dot front sight, in an Alessi APX. This is the only holster I know of that was designed specifically for "appendix forward" carry, and it works for me. The Big Dot complicates shooting at a distance, but once you find yoursight picture and practice it, you can keep everything inside an 8" paper plate at 25 yds. Not target-grade accuracy, but more than adequate for the street.
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