Berrys vs RMR and FP vs RN

[chiltech500]

I have not bought RMR plated yet but it looks like they have a penny price advantage on Berrys RN and FP. Their product is also thick plate vs the regular Berrys although I will not be pushing high velocity. Comments, experiences one vs the other? I was quite happy with RMR pulled bullets with my one purchase experience.

Also thoughts on FP vs RN for accuracy - benefits, disadvantages? I know Walkalong and mstreddy shared they don't feel there is a difference in the cut of the hole, but in my recent target shooting Berrys HBFP vs Berrys RN the hole was less jagged and cleaner with the FP - not quite like a SWC but noticebly better. Are there any disadvantages to the FP?

 

[9mmepiphany]

It might just be a matter of esthetics, but I prefer the FP to the RN, because I just like the idea of a flat seating plug contacting a flat surface when pushing the bullet into the case

 

[chiltech500]

I feel the same way 9mm...

Thus far I like the way Berrys HBFP-TB perform. I am trying to determine if the Rocky Mountain reloading FP or RN's have been tried and folks opinions.

I have not seen this few responses in any of my queeries - surprising.

 

[LiveLife]

I have not seen this few responses in any of my queeries - surprising.

Maybe people just haven't done much plated FP vs RN comparison tests.

I have shot quite a bit of Berry's regular plated 124 gr RN and thicker plated 115/124 gr HBRN-TP but never shot their plated FP bullets. Accuracy wise, regular RN was OK and produced the best shot groups at mid-range jacketed load data. Thicker plated RN did much better and outshot my reference Winchester 115 gr FMJ (but Winchester now sells hollow base 115 gr FMJ so I will test those when my current supply runs out).

Berry's 115/124 gr HBRN-TP produced 1.04" - 1.43" shot groups at 15 yards in the Herco thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=745656

Berry's 124 gr HBRN-TP produced 1" - 1.5" shot groups at 15 yards with W231/HP-38/Bullseye/Titegroup - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7266869#post7266869


When Rocky Mountain Reloading started selling their own line of thick plated bullets, I tested 124 gr TP RN with WST/BE-86 and got 1.5"/2.0" shot groups at 25 yards (Although I did not test Berry's bullets with WST/BE-86, as clustering of holes show in the pictures below, RMR TP RN and WST/BE-86 combinations show promise for accuracy. I have not tested RMR's FP bullets yet but plan to do some comparison test using JR Carbine and 9mm barrel) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9655361#post9655361

 

[Walkalong]

I have shot the Berrys 124 Gr HBFP as well as the Berrys 124 Gr RN and 124 Gr HBRN-TP. All I am going to buy now is the Berrys 124 Gr HBRN-TP.

All shot well, although I did not do serious side by side tests, but the HBFP could be a little finicky feeding sometimes in my 9MM AR, and I can shoot the HBRN-TP in my .38 Super at 1300+ FPS as well as using it in my 9MMs, so that is what I will buy from Berrys. Right now I am shooting the X-Treme 124 Gr HP in 9MM.

But then, I am not looking for nice round holes in paper with my 9MM or .38 Super shooting. The little HP will do better than the round nose, as does the FP, but nothing will cut a hole like a WC or SWC.

 

[Jim Watson]

If the flatpoint runs up the feed ramp and lands in the chamber every time, there is nothing against it. I have a hard time seeing better bullet holes from the flat. That usually takes, as Walkalong says, a wadcutter or semiwadcutter.

Since I have had flatpoints NOT run up the feed ramp and land in the chamber EVERY TIME, I lean towards roundnose for practice and ogival hollowpoints for carry.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks fellas. I suspect there probably isn't much difference in accuracy RN vs FP, given each is barrel tested and refined. I am not shooting in a "must go bang" competition so I can allow for a bit of finicky from FP's given all else is equal.

I too suspect that the HB design is an improvement over the standard RN or FP's for accuracy, but I have not done proper testing to say for sure.

I was hoping at low to mid-range velocities a standard RN or FP would be as accurate as the HB/TP types. My goal was to save a couple of pennies by buying RMR's (vs the Berry HB/TP).

I have switched gun,powder and bullet maker shooting 9mm 126gr lead SWC's and am encouraged by the improvements in accuracy. Again seat of the pants testing vs Hyskore rest testing.

The gun change was to CZ75 whose barrel I believe has a higher twist rate. The new bullet maker is Dardas whose SWC have a flat base (Bullseye shooters like the JHP and one of the reasons JHP believed to be most accurate is the flat base). Also, the Dardas SWC's have a thinner flat point which allows a longer base thus bearing surface for the weight at the base. The powder I switched to is VV N320 (from WST and Titegroup prior). The 320 cost a lot and is rare so I would not count on that as my every day powder. I have a couple pounds left.

 

[chiltech500]

Just a quick pic to show the difference between RN and FP on heavier stock target paper.

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[LiveLife]

Yup, those FP bullet holes are much larger than RN bullet holes.

 

[chiltech500]

I'll tell ya john, that little bigger hole helps in B.E. where the edge of the hole touches the line of the better ring. As you can tell, I need all the help I can get

For some reason I struggle with iron sights and a sandbag or even the Hyskore rest using the "V" notch. I was trying to improve the situation by making a small table to elevate the rest on top of the bench. It seems with iron sights I'm just as well off holding the gun.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

I have not bought RMR plated yet but it looks like they have a penny price advantage on Berrys RN and FP. Their product is also thick plate vs the regular Berrys although I will not be pushing high velocity. Comments, experiences one vs the other? I was quite happy with RMR pulled bullets with my one purchase experience.

Also thoughts on FP vs RN for accuracy - benefits, disadvantages? I know Walkalong and mstreddy shared they don't feel there is a difference in the cut of the hole, but in my recent target shooting Berrys HBFP vs Berrys RN the hole was less jagged and cleaner with the FP - not quite like a SWC but noticebly better. Are there any disadvantages to the FP?

If a penny a round is important (it is to me) either look for Berry's bullets on Powder Valley or get on the daily email from X-treme for their daily special (usually worth about 1/2 cent per bullet) and they are usually cheaper than Berry's web site as well.

 

[Walkalong]

Those certainly do better than the TrFPs I tried in 9MM, or maybe I just remembered it wrong. yea, for Bullseye or anything where you are scoring by what ring it touches, that helps. You could always try light .38 Spl SWCs.

 

[chiltech500]

Thanks skinnedknuckles.

Walkalong do you mean buying a 38sp SWC plated to use in the 9mm case? Sounds like a very interesting idea!

I have a 38sp S&W revolver (14-3) and lots of LWC's. Just waiting to mount my red dot onto it.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Those certainly do better than the TrFPs I tried in 9MM, or maybe I just remembered it wrong. yea, for Bullseye or anything where you are scoring by what ring it touches, that helps. You could always try light .38 Spl SWCs.

This is an interesting concept. Has anyone who casts and has a bullet sizer ever tried to lube up some .357" plated bullets and re-size them down to .355" or so for use in 9mm? If so, was it possible to re-size them and did it damage the plating (or the sizing die)? Inquiring minds want to know

 

[Walkalong]

A lot of 9MM barres handle .357/8 just fine, but yes, if you are casting, or just are willing to resize with a Lee sizer die, you could make them .356.

 

[longdayjake]

This is an interesting concept. Has anyone who casts and has a bullet sizer ever tried to lube up some .357" plated bullets and re-size them down to .355" or so for use in 9mm? If so, was it possible to re-size them and did it damage the plating (or the sizing die)? Inquiring minds want to know

Okay, so here is what I have done. We have actually sized 124 grain bullets that were sent to us from Xtreme that were sized to .360. We squirted them with wd 40 and threw them in our lube masters with the lube disconnected. They sized fine but came out very black because of the wd 40 attracting all the lead from our collator. So we then tossed them in our industrial tumbler and they came out really pretty. However, they weighed about 128 grains because of the extra plating.

Also, I've loaded and shot a ton of .357's through all my 9mms.

 

[chiltech500]

My understanding is that a slightly oversized bullet has more propensity to lead the barrel. That said...

Dardas lead bullets offers different diameters of bullets to be purchased, Example my 1911's and Blackhawk revolver eat the standard .452 whereas my S&W revolver from the 80's (model 25-2) cylinders are oversized so I use a .454 bullet with more accuracy.

Dardas offers a 125gr 9mm LRN. at diameter .356 thru .358 . For the 38sp they offer a a 125 gr RNFP at .357 thru .359.

So it seems possible to shoot a 38sp bullet in the 9mm.

 

[vaalpens]

A lot of 9MM barres handle .357/8 just fine, but yes, if you are casting, or just are willing to resize with a Lee sizer die, you could make them .356.

This really sounds interesting since .356" is a nice diameter for 357sig due to lack of neck tension.

 

[Potatohead]

I think the FPs look much cooler. I know that's like picking a favorite team because you like the color of their jersey but hey..

Hey Vaal, do you have trouble with neck tension with the Sig? Or you were just mentioning that because neck tension is "something to watch" when loading that caliber? Just wondering because Im kind of intrigued by it and want to get one, but a bullet that slips into the case during the push test is like a nightmare to me when I think about it.

 

[longdayjake]

This really sounds interesting since .356" is a nice diameter for 357sig due to lack of neck tension.

I've had several customers tell me they use .357 bullets in their sig. However, the .357 sig is a lot higher pressure round than the 9mm so you would probably want to be really careful with how much powder you are putting behind them.

 

[vaalpens]

I think the FPs look much cooler. I know that's like picking a favorite team because you like the color of their jersey but hey..

Hey Vaal, do you have trouble with neck tension with the Sig? Or you were just mentioning that because neck tension is "something to watch" when loading that caliber? Just wondering because Im kind of intrigued by it and want to get one, but a bullet that slips into the case during the push test is like a nightmare to me when I think about it.

Potatohead, I like the flatpoints also and just loaded my last RN bullets. For now I am just going to get FP or HP in 9mm, and especially those that can be used in both 9mm and 357sig. Neck tension is something you need to be aware of when loading 357sig. This is why I go through a setback and bathroom scale test for every new bullet/brass combination I use. I also had problems with a jacketed bullet I had which did not pass my test.

I've had several customers tell me they use .357 bullets in their sig. However, the .357 sig is a lot higher pressure round than the 9mm so you would probably want to be really careful with how much powder you are putting behind them.

longdayjake, I am the cautious type so I'm not planning on using .357" bullets in 357sig. I am currently using some Berry's HBFP TP bullets which is .356". The bullet passed my setback/scale test an I am currently using them. I see you have your FP 9mm bullets now listed under a 357sig link/heading. Are they the same bullets? Are these a true .355" or are they .3545" or .3555"?

 

[longdayjake]

They are actually .356. And several guys are reporting 0 bullet setback on the RN. I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't be the same on the FP.

 

[vaalpens]

They are actually .356. And several guys are reporting 0 bullet setback on the RN. I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't be the same on the FP.

Thanks. I have decided to bite the bullet and ordered 500 of them for my 357sig and 9mm loads. Looking forward to try them out.

 

[mastiff54]

Always looking for cheaper practice loads my brother and I ventured in to the real of plated bullets for our 45 caliber handguns first. We shoot 45ACP and 460 Rowland.
With all the claims of precision plated bullets we decided to buy 500 each from Rainier, X-Treme and Berry. The Berry were 230gr while the Rainier and X-Treme were 200gr. All were roundnose.
Using a Mitutoyo .0001 mic, I measured 30 pieces of each at the base for diameter and weighed them on an Acculab scale that is readable to .01 grain and accurate to .05 grain.
The results are as follows:
Diameter: Extreme Spread Average Standard Deviation
X-Treme .0012 .4519 .00023
Rainier .0005 .4510 .00012
Berry .0004 .4514 .00010

Weight:
X-Treme 1.22 199.66 .293
Rainier 1.62 199.82 .431
Berry 1.26 230.13 .289

The results show the Berry's were by far the most consistent of the three measured. Other observations were :
X-Treme's seemed to have significantly more variation in roundness. I could get differences of .0005 easily on any bullet as I checked it at various radial locations. My belief is that this is a main contributor to X-Treme's high variation in diameter.
X-Treme's packaging needs some serious improvement. They use boxes that are perforated at the folds instead of a pressure score. The box was not taped well and when UPS apparently dropped it, the box split at the perforations.

Rainier's were very consistent and round, well packaged in a cardboard box and have a nice cup in the base as opposed to being flat.

Berry's were noticeably more consistent and also very round as I was checking them. They are packaged in a sturdy plastic box.

I realize all of this is BS if they shoot good, but data is knowledge. We'll be checking velocity and grouping as we get some of these loaded.

 

[chiltech500]

Good stats. Lead is very accurate in 45acp, the only issue with lead can be leading. It seems to be a different story in 9mm.

Conclusions to be drawn from your data above is Berry is the likely "best" of the plated bullets you checked. I wish you had run some tests on lead