Best caliber for a 16" deer rifle

[35 Whelen]

If all common deer rifle calibers experience a decline in muzzle velocity when moving from a longer to shorter barrel, is there any caliber in particular that is more suited for a short barrel like 16"? Which cartridge may experience the least amount of velocity loss when moving from say a 22 or 24" barrel to a 16" barrel? or do they all lose about the same amount of velocity?

If you want a common over the counter cartridge, something based on the .308 or similar would be best; .243, 250 Savage, 260 Remington, 7mm-08, 300 Savage, etc. If you look back over the decades at what folks like Remington et al. chamber in their rifles with 18" barrels, you won't see many '06 based cartridges or any long belted cartridges chambered in these short barreled rifles, and for good reason. Larger cartridge cases require more powder, which creates more muzzle flash, to reach the same velocities as the smaller capacity cartridge cases.

The shorter the barrel - the faster the powder and the closer to straight-wall cartridges.

Over-bore cartridges require barrel length and slow powder.

Re- shorter barrel, sort of. When the barrels are shorter the benefits of slower burning powder aren't realized. If you have one of the more recent Lyman manuals, it's interesting to compare the powders they use in data for rifle length their rifle length barrel (24") vs. data for T/C's 15" barrels. In the latter, they didn't use the usual slow-ish burning powders such as 4350 and 4831.
I've been loading straight-wall and almost straight-wall cartridges such as the .357, 38 WCF, .44 Special, 44 WCF and 44 Mangum in revolvers as well as rifles for quite a few years now. With faster burning powders the difference in velocities from say a 5" revolver barrel to a 20" rifle barrel (15" difference) is quite typically around 200 fps and 300-400 fps with slower powders. As a comparison, the .223 will show 300 fps difference with as little as 6" of barrel difference, depending on the load, of course.

Over bore cartridges definitely require slower burning powder to reach their full potential, no question about that.

35W

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Why an AR? Because I like them more.

Which brings me back to my initial statement. Rather than just use what has been proven to work for centuries, you want to reinvent the wheel. Have at it, but I'll never understand why you want to reinvent the wheel.

Why would someone want a 400 yard capable deer rifle with a 16” barrel? Because they want too.

To clarify and restate what I've already stated. If you want to take deer out to 400 yards, you should probably have a proper rifle with a 22"+ barrel on it in a caliber (.243/308/30-06 etc) capable of doing so. I suppose that 6.5 whatever meets that definition; I just don't understand why those calibers even exist when the aforementioned calibers have decades to a century of proven track records, but whatever.

 

[mavracer]

Respectfully, you obviously did not "hear me." Why are you reinventing the wheel to put a modernized 35 Rem or 375 into an AR to shoot longer distances when you can just hunt with any bolt gun in 35 Rem or 375. There's no shortage of those guns. My earlier post was entirely to the point of going with tried and true.

I enjoy westerns but I also enjoy war movies.
I love lever guns but I also enjoy building and shooting ARs.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I enjoy westerns but I also enjoy war movies.
I love lever guns but I also enjoy building and shooting ARs.

Not a very good analogy, but whatever.

I think a better analogy would be something like: "I need reliable transportation to get me to and from work. Instead of buying a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla (or any other vehicle with a proven track record of reliability and effectiveness), I think I'm going to buy a Tesla.

 

[someguy2800]

Which brings me back to my initial statement. Rather than just use what has been proven to work for centuries, you want to reinvent the wheel. Have at it, but I'll never understand why you want to reinvent the wheel.

Because I like the calibers that come in lever guns, but I don’t like lever guns.

To clarify and restate what I've already stated. If you want to take deer out to 400 yards, you should probably have a proper rifle with a 22"+ barrel on it in a caliber (.243/308/30-06 etc) capable of doing so. I suppose that 6.5 whatever meets that definition; I just don't understand why those calibers even exist when the aforementioned calibers have decades to a century of proven track records, but whatever.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

View attachment 1184948

Right back at ya, lol

 

[mavracer]

Not a very good analogy, but whatever.

I think a better analogy would be something like: "I need reliable transportation to get me to and from work. Instead of buying a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla (or any other vehicle with a proven track record of reliability and effectiveness), I think I'm going to buy a Tesla.

The better Fudd car analogy with your 94 Winchester timeline would be I can get back and forth to work in a model T, don't need to reinvent the wheel

 

[someguy2800]

The better Fudd car analogy with your 94 Winchester timeline would be I can get back and forth to work in a model T, don't need to reinvent the wheel

Isn’t it funny when people say that a gun from the 1950’s is too modern and unproven?

 

[D.B. Cooper]

The better Fudd car analogy

There it is! The F-word.

 

[mavracer]

There it is! The F-word.

First I would point out that you already used it in this thread.
Second I'm perfectly capable of living with a foot in both worlds.
I actually have more lever guns than ARs

 

[35 Whelen]

The


I hear you. My favorite deer rifles are a 444 single shot and an AR in a cartridge that is basically duplicating 35 remington. My next one I am planning to build is another AR that basically duplicates 375 winchester. However some people have the need, or maybe just the desire, to shoot deer at 300, 400, 500 yards and still want to use a compact rifle. Such things are rendered rather ineffective at those ranges compared to 6.5 blah blahs.

Wow...I've owned and loaded for a Marlin .375 Winchester for 40 years now. I was looking through my load log recently and saw that my hunting load consisted of a 220 gr. Hornady at 2200 fps. The original factory loads were 200 gr. @ 2200 and a 250 gr. @ 1900. I'm curious to see how you will accomplish those ballistics in an AR-length cartridge.

35W

 

[someguy2800]

Wow...I've owned and loaded for a Marlin .375 Winchester for 40 years now. I was looking through my load log recently and saw that my hunting load consisted of a 220 gr. Hornady at 2200 fps. The original factory loads were 200 gr. @ 2200 and a 250 gr. @ 1900. I'm curious to see how you will accomplish those ballistics in an AR-length cartridge.

35W

My 358 yeti would already exceed those numbers pretty easily from a 16” barrel but what I have in mind is to buy a ruger SFAR and rebarrel it to a slightly longer version of a 375 raptor.

 

[35 Whelen]

My 358 yeti would already exceed those numbers pretty easily from a 16” barrel but what I have in mind is to buy a ruger SFAR and rebarrel it to a slightly longer version of a 375 raptor.

If that's what you're after, why don't you just buy a rifle chambered in .358 Winchester, which would exceed the ballistics of the 358 Yeti by quite a bit? Or a 35 Whelen? Or a 358 Norma?

35W

 

[someguy2800]

If that's what you're after, why don't you just buy a rifle chambered in .358 Winchester, which would exceed the ballistics of the 358 Yeti by quite a bit? Or a 35 Whelen? Or a 358 Norma?

35W

A 358 winchester will beat the 358 yeti by about 100 fps in the same length barrel. I already have a 375 ruger so if it was just about power I have all that I want there. I've owned them all and there is no other firearm platform that interests me as much as a 16" small frame AR.

 

[Roverguy]

16” is too short.

If you must have it, then 30-30. Won’t immediately blow out your ear drums.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

First I would point out that you already used it in this thread.

HEY! Don't confuse the discussion with facts. I just think it's funny how it's used. I liken it to "OK, Boomer."

Second I'm perfectly capable of living with a foot in both worlds.
I actually have more lever guns than ARs

me too and...me too.

 

[mgmorden]

.300 Blackout is probably a good choice. Its really intended for shorter barrels anyways. I've been looking at getting one of the CVA Wolf takedowns in .300 Blackout as a "backpack" gun that I can break down and fit into a pack.

 

[mavracer]

Wow...I've owned and loaded for a Marlin .375 Winchester for 40 years now. I was looking through my load log recently and saw that my hunting load consisted of a 220 gr. Hornady at 2200 fps. The original factory loads were 200 gr. @ 2200 and a 250 gr. @ 1900. I'm curious to see how you will accomplish those ballistics in an AR-length cartridge.

35W

450 Bushmaster shoots 250gr over 2000 from a 16", the new 400 Legend should be right on top of the 375 Winchester ballistics. I don't see it being very successful any more than the 375 was.

Rather than just use what has been proven to work for centuries, you want to reinvent the wheel. Have at it, but I'll never understand why you want to reinvent the wheel.

That's the thing it's not reinventing the wheel. We're just making a wheel with the correct backspace and bolt pattern so that the tires size we want tuck nicely under a car we like.

 

[BreechFace]

450 Bushmaster shoots 250gr over 2000 from a 16", the new 400 Legend should be right on top of the 375 Winchester ballistics. I don't see it being very successful any more than the 375 was.

Yup, hard to argue with 250-275gr out of a 16” 450 Bushmaster impressive performance from an AR15 carbine, effect on game with a good shot presents a lot of authority. It’s my short range <200 yard hunting rifle. Both of the groups on the target below were shot out of my 16” AR15 suppressed.

Top 5-shot group is 395gr Subsonic Hornady Sub-X bullets at 100 yards.

Bottom 5 shot group is 250gr FTX at 100 yards.

Recovered bullet is a 250gr FTX after smashing a heavily quartering whitetail shoulder cutting across diagonally and doing damage in the rear offside quarter and retained in the hide. Doe ran 20 yards and expired. This was fired through my Ruger GSR suppressed. Bullet weighed out 217gr and 0.727” expansion.

My next load for the 450BM will be a 275gr Barnes TSX.

 

[mavracer]

Yup, hard to argue with 250-275gr out of a 16” 450 Bushmaster impressive performance from an AR15 carbine, effect on game with a good shot presents a lot of authority. It’s my short range <200 yard hunting rifle. Both of the groups on the target below were shot out of my 16” AR15 suppressed.

It also baffles me why it isn't more accepted among the Fudd community being the brainchild of the Godfudder himself Jeffery Cooper.

 

[35 Whelen]

It also baffles me why it isn't more accepted among the Fudd community being the brainchild of the Godfudder himself Jeffery Cooper.

What exactly is the Fudd Community?

35W

 

[BreechFace]

It also baffles me why it isn't more accepted among the Fudd community being the brainchild of the Godfudder himself Jeffery Cooper.

Yeah, Tim LeGendre originally developed the 45 Professional in response to Cooper's 'Thumper' desires. I believe then the case was shortened due to magazine limitations or something of the effect and then it became the 450 Bushmaster.

I don't know how much Cooper looked into or evaluated it for his Scout concept, regardless I'm glad it came to fruition it is a nice cartridge especially for the reloader. Lots of options for projectiles and loads from mild to wild, supers to subs, etc.

Black Butterfly Ammunition gives a lot of good options for the 450 Bushmaster, provides a lot of ideas for a reloader to play off of. I purchased one of their smaller sampler pack of 50 just as a reference for bullets to consider for use in the future.

 

[Hookeye]

Some folks hunt small chunks of ground.
Deer crossing the fence could be problematic.
A thumper can help keep stress levels down.

Plus the .450 BM is legal for some areas where more conventional rifle rounds may not be.

If works in a semi auto too.
What's not to like?

Ive seriously thought about one.

 

[Varminterror]

A person needing to shoot out beyond 300 (I hunt caribou at that range) isn't going to do that with a 16" barrel rifle. (Or at least they probably shouldn't be.)

I'll eat my own bread...

My son was shooting 300yrds with a 10" 22LR pistol when he was 7... I shoot out to 1,000 with a 15" pistol, which used to be 10". The world is a lot bigger than you're able to see.

 

[mavracer]

What exactly is the Fudd Community?

35W

Which word are you needing defined?