Best SHOTGUN EVER!

[lobo9er]

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I guess I'll just go get a Saiga and spray from the hip to win.

+1 on that

 

[csspecs]

Which is why I like the 20 gauge. Smaller shells = smaller mags.. I reload so I can make some fairly effective rounds fit in the 2 3/4" package.

This one is a 10 round, its a prototype. However there are production 8s that are shorter then an AK magazine. Weight of the loaded 10 is 25 ounces, which is roughly 3 ounces lighter then a loaded AK mag.

 

[Girodin]

Let's be honest now, the >10 round magazines for the Saigas are a lot larger than a 30 round magazine for a regular AK-pattern gun, and they're also a lot heavier when fully loaded.

Well now I'm curious what the actual numbers are and I'm going to have to get out some mags and a scale.

 

[Fastcast]

Oh, and here I was thinking that some of the high-ranking 3 gun shooters who run the Saigas actually had skill.

Thanks for straightening that out for me. I guess I'll just go get a Saiga and spray from the hip to win.

Never even heard of 3 gun till you guys mentioned it here so I look it up on You Tube, woo hoo! Looks like just another staged gun game to me, full of props and shooters for who the most part already know exactly what their shots are going to be.

I don't really have a problem with gun games as I shoot sporting clays (low gun) prior to the hunting season, just to get back in the groove, for the real games.

How's those renowned game guns been doing at Top Shot? Seems to me the regular Joe's (outdoors men & hunters) are the ones winning $100 grand.

The few shotgun shots I saw on You Tube looked pretty simple, especially after seeing the course all day and knowing exactly what those shots are.

I think you gentlemen might want to get out in the woods more often, where the shots and "course" are spontaneous.

 

[Girodin]

The few shotgun shots I saw on You Tube looked pretty simple, especially after seeing the course all day and knowing exactly what those shots are.

I think you gentlemen might want to get out in the woods more often, where the shots and "course" are spontaneous

There is some money in some of the big contests. Maybe you should go show them all how easy it is.

What people aren't up on they are down on.

It is pretty clear you have no clue what skills are required to do well at three gun. Hitting targets is only a part of what is going on there. I'd love to see you go to a three gun contest and back up your mouth.

 

[Fastcast]

I'd love to see you go to a three gun contest and back up your mouth.

and I'd love to see you come to my neck of woods and back up yours, with your Saiga, big shot.

There's a lot more going out there too, than just hitting targets but it's pretty clear you don't have a clue about that or why the wing shooting crowd is saying handling dynamics, balance and fit all matter in the field, on spontaneous shots.

 

[Girodin]

and I'd love to see you come to my neck of woods and back up yours, with your Saiga, big shot.

What have I said? What have I said about my saiga? What talk have I offered? I, unlike you, have not mentioned any shooting sport and in essence alleged it takes no skill. I didn't say whatever type of shooting you like takes no skill. Or looks easy. I don't have any talk to back up.

There's a lot more going out there too, than just hitting targets but it's pretty clear you don't have a clue about that or why the wing shooting crowd is saying handling dynamics, balance and fit all matter in the field, on spontaneous shots.

Please quote where in this thread I say anything about the the saiga being a good choice for wing shooting or talk about handling and balance not being important for wing shooting. In fact find anywhere in this thread prior to this post that I even talk about wing shooting. I don't use my saiga for wing shooting, when I'm after top results. And I don't for a reason. While I'm far from a greatly skilled person at wingshooting I have actually done it (unlike you and three gun). I shoot clays. I hunt. I know enough to not ignorantly dismiss the skills that are needed or to naively assert it takes no skill.

Just because you ignorantly popped off at the mouth, don't try to assert I did the same I didn't.

That doesn't really require "skill set", balance or even a mediocre fit.....I'm not gonna argue with you that the Saiga has its uses but they don't require fit and skill set.

That was all you and one of the more ignorant things I have read on this forum.

Your the one that said it looked easy. I'm just telling you go take the money if its so easy.

 

[allaroundhunter]

This:

Maybe you should go show them all how easy it is.

And this:

and I'd love to see you come to my neck of woods and back up yours, with your Saiga, big shot.

are far from "High Road".

Honestly, if you haven't shot three gun, you have no justification in saying that it is "easy" just by looking at videos on youtube, and vice versa. And there is also no reason to be attacking each other here.....

 

[Girodin]

I don't think telling someone running their mouth to put up is not high road. One of the moderators of this very forum regularly does so when people are touting the practicality of PGO shotguns.

 

[Fastcast]

I didn't say 3 gun took no skill, with the quick reloads and all, that was Justin putting words in my mouth.

I was referring to lobo9er saying if you couldn't shoot a Saiga well you just didn't have the skill set. My comments were about balance, fit, and gun handling, not being nearly as important for the types of things people are going to use a Saiga for, eg: trench clearing, etc......Comprehension 101

 

[allaroundhunter]

My last post here:

Saiga's have there niche (when they are functioning), but it sure isn't in the woods (and some competitions make it difficult to be competitive with one)

O/U's also have their niche, but it sure isn't in 3-gun

No shotgun is the "BEST SHOTGUN EVER", but IMHO, there are some that are MUCH closer to it than a Saiga

 

[Fastcast]

Girodin, yep I said the shots looked easy, just the shots, nothing else. If that offends you too bad!

I know enough about wing and clay shooting to be able to digest easy shots from a video when I see them. Man size steel/still targets from a few yards away and a straight away double of clays, yep not too difficult.

I'll spend my time and money afield, thank you and you can keep playing the gun games you enjoy. Good night!

 

[lobo9er]

Interesting how meny saiga dislikers there are. I wonder how meny deer may fall to a saiga this season? Any saiga owners take a saiga deer hunting?

 

[rbernie]

I've owned three (3) Saiga shotguns over the years, and they all shot OK.

One thing that is rarely mentioned in these threads is how poorly they carry afield compared to more 'traditional' choices; they are all full of angles and edges and protruberences in all the wrong places (places where you'd really like to wrap you mitt, for example, while carrying).

They are really cool when converted back to AK ergonomics; my last one had an Ace sidefolder and I thought well of it for a camp defense kind of role. But I surely did not enjoy carrying it around in the field unslung, and carrying a long gun slung up is no way to go hunting for wee little birds or the like...

 

[csspecs]

Converted to AK trigger group and pistol grip is the only way to go.

There is a way to use a sling to support the gun in low ready. It supports the front end and you just hold the pistol grip.

Really you can also get the guns to fit you fairly well, cheek supports and the like.

 

[Dave McCracken]

This thread is teetering on the brink of The Abyss of Closure.

Disagree if you wish on the hardware, but keep it courteous....

 

[Girodin]

I'm not gonna argue with you that the Saiga has its uses but they don't require fit and skill set.

The above are your exact words, with emphasis added to the pertinent part. No one has put words in your mouth.

One of its uses, a fairly common one in fact, is 3 gun. The above statement is you saying it doesn't require a skill set. Another use is HD, that doesn't take a skill set either? Other uses include other social work. Do those tasks not require a skill set?

Your comments about three gun have shown that you really don't understand the sport. Apart from the shots (which may or may not prove more challenging than you think when you include everything else that is going on) there are a number of other important skills. Some of which are where matches are really won or lost a lot of the time.

A very important skill in three gun is ammo management, reloads, slug change overs and the like. Moving to and from cover, shooting from cover may be important. Shooting from improvised shooting positions. Taking targets in tactical priority could be at play. Transitions to a side arm might be needed.

If you have never participated in the sport I think it fairly presumptious to comment. It is about as close to bird hunting as baseball is to soccer. The equipment used in each looks very different for good reason.

Given the OP's bold declaration I understand why people are pointing out the Saiga is a poor wingshooting gun, and it is. But is that really news. A 28" barrled Berretta O/U is just awful for clearing rooms, and birds go tweet, is any of this really news?

Shotguns have a wide range of uses. No one gun is going to excel at all of them. Some are better Jacks of all trades than others. Also if one is reduced to having one gun to do it all where the appropriate trade offs are will largely be determined by what one's primary uses are and whats really important to them. One person might decide that a saiga can do a better job of knocking birds out of the air than W. Richards will do shooting three gun and pulling HD duty. One might decide their Beretta S 687 Extra could fend off the unlikely burglar but is a much finer gun a field than a Benelli M4 with a pistol grip stock.

Critiquing a gun for not being good at a task it is not really meant for is like critiquing a Ferrari for its lack of towing capacity or a one tone truck for its dismal lateral G score and rough ride. Saying things you've never done don't require a skill set strikes me as being sillier still.

 

[Hardware]

No experience with a Saiga. My Benelli M2 is dead nuts reliable with any type of load. Buckshot, slugs or light field loads. As long as you clean it every couple hundred rounds the recoil system just keeps feeding shells. Of course your should will take a pounding.

I also have an 1187 police that is a wonderful gun for defense. It does get finicky with field loads, but I'll gamble that the squirrel, fowl or clay won't charge me before I can bring my sidearm into play. Slugs or buckshot are its preferred food.

I've had opportunities to buy a Saiga, converted and not. But unless the Zombie Apocalypse is in the offing I can't really see a reason why.

/thread

 

[Fastcast]

The above are your exact words, with emphasis added to the pertinent part. No one has put words in your mouth.

Yes, that's my story and I'm sticking to it .....I was talking about HD, clearing trenches, etc. not 3gun contests, that I didn't even know what it was, when I made that comment.

What part of that have you failed to understand yet? You needing to write all that to explain your position, explains a lot.....Focus.

 

[Fiv3r]

Did you determine why it jammed or investigate? Were you using bird-shot or buck/slugs? What gas port settings did you attempt (how many gas ports did the Saiga have)? I am curious.

-Cheers

My particular gun was .410 that came with a 15 round and 4 round magazine. It was bought used but was basically new in box, maybe even unfired. It was super clean. It worked fine most of the time when I used standard plastic hulled 3" shells. However, I had to load the high capacity magazine with a maximum of 10 shells as it would start to deform them if I crushed any more in there. These were the standard birdshot/practice load stuff of various name brands. I might get one jam per 3-4 magazine regardless of where I had the gas port set. Sometimes it was on the third round. Sometimes the first. Sometimes the 6th, etc. I had the same issues with the 4 round mag but less often simply because it held less rounds. it would jam bad enough that I would have to physically extract the shell with my multitool after dropping the magazine.

The funny thing was that when I bought a mess of Russian ammo designed for the Saiga (metal hulled and in both buck and slug flavors), regardless what mag I used I COULD NOT get it to feed them. It would shoot one then jam on the second one. Or even the first! I'd load the mag, pull back on the handle and it would drive the front of the shell into the front of the feed ramp instead of up on it. I crushed about 5 shells before I decided to stick with the plastic stuff. I could see it as a gas port issue if it always happened on the second round, but it literally didn't like to feed the very first one at all. I even tried loading both mags up with just one round to see if that helped. It didn't.

Long story short, just too much to goof with right out of the box. I bought the Saiga on a whim because I thought it looked cool. I'm very familiar with pumps, and that's what I should have stuck with.

Different stokes/folks, etc. They aren't for me.

 

[Girodin]

I didn't even know what it was, when I made that comment.

So you were critiquing a gun without even knowing what is used for? Nice.

I also take it you didn't bother to read the thread which had multiple references to it. staring in posts 3 and 7, or informing yourself before spouting off.

.I was talking about HD, clearing trenches, etc

So home defense takes no skill set? I wonder why people pay guys like Louis Awerbuck, Chirs Costa, Clint Smith, etc so much money to learn how to run a shotgun. What is on their DVDs they sale? Is it just a blank disc since there is no skill set required? Seriously, asserting HD takes no skill set is pretty laughable.

BTW how many trenches or structures have you cleared to know that it takes no skill set? The people I know, and often shoot with, who do such things for a living are fairly skilled shooters. Furthermore the skill sets they have for those tasks go way beyond just hitting targets.

You needing to write all that to explain your position, explains a lot.....

The fact that your position(s) have just been statements with little to no explanation, explains a lot as well.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but not all opinions are entitled to the same weight.

What training or experience do you have in clearing things?

What training or experience do you have in using a shotgun for HD?

I don't think you have a real strong foundation to be asserting that those activities do not require a skill set. Nor are you likely qualified to discuss what equipment is or is not useful for it.

We already have established your total knowledge of three gun comes from watching a couple youtube videos.

How many rounds have you fired from a S12?

How many S12s have you fired?

What activities did you participate in with them?

What configuration were the guns in?

You may want to keep your comments things you know something about.

 

[Justin]

I don't really have a problem with gun games as I shoot sporting clays (low gun) prior to the hunting season, just to get back in the groove, for the real games.

I fail to see what makes your recreational activity more "real" than the recreational activities undertaken by other people.

What part of that have you failed to understand yet? You needing to write all that to explain your position, explains a lot.....Focus.

Frankly, Girodin went to quite a lot of effort to respond to the things you've written, and while I don't know him personally or as a competitive shooter, the things he has written ring true from my experience.

I would suggest that perhaps his in-depth response to you has more to do with the provably false assertions you've made about a sport with which your only experience has been to watch a couple of videos on YouTube, and that furthermore, maybe you ought to take his writings in the manner in which it was offered, instead of just blithely skipping past it and offering a flippant and content-free response.

What you've done is equivalent to watching an NFL football game and asserting that "those boys are just throwing a ball around a field, and from watching the game from the vantage point of my couch, it doesn't look all that tough."

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

What neck of the woods are you in, fastcast?

I'm sure someone can arrange for you to shoot in a 3-gun match or two. If you don't have equipment suitable, i'm also sure that can also be arranged.

 

[Fastcast]

Gentlemen, you sure seem to think you know me well and what experience I have with shotguns.

I never heard of 3gun so what.....It's quite hypocritical of you to assume I can't tactically shoot a shotgun because I never heard of the 3gun game.

I have many acres of land, I have a rifle range, a hand gun range and a shotgun range set up on my property. My family and good friends practice here regularly. We run hand gun drills, target & tactical with rifles, plus clays & tactical with shotguns so now you know a little more about me and won't have to assume.

I can with out a doubt tell you, in my experience, tactical shotgunning is not near as challenging as hunting wood ducks, teal or grouse and quite frankly rather boring. It sure bothers you fellows that I don't have much use for a mediocre, tactical shotgun, that has little to no use in the field of hunting....IMO

We can continue to argue if you like but I doubt we'll ever agree.....

 

[Girodin]

I never heard of 3gun so what.....It's quite hypocritical of you to assume I can't tactically shoot a shotgun because I never heard of the 3gun game.

If I was going to make that assumption--I in fact asked what training and experience you had--I would make it based on your assertion that HD and clearing took no skill set.

I can with out a doubt tell you, in my experience, tactical shotgunning is not near as challenging as hunting wood ducks, teal or grouse and quite frankly rather boring.

What experience is that exactly? Is there anything beyond informal shooting on a known range on your own property? What does your " run[ing]tactical with shotguns . . ." consist of? I'm not trying to be snide, I'm genuinely curious.

I've never had a teal pull out a glock 19 or encountered a grouse with an AK. Some might say sitting in a duck blind is very boring compared to being on a two way range, or going into an unknown structure where an armed suspect might be.

I would disagree that hunting is per se easier than "tactical shotgunning" as you call it. While I think shooting a dove out of the air is harder than hitting COM at 15 feet, tactical shooting is more involved in many respects than a lot of hunting. It can call for shooting from a much greater number of positions (standing, prone, urban prone, supine, kneeling, etc) and from both shoulders. It involves understanding how to properly use cover and concealment. You need to know how to get off the X. One must be much more proficient at ammo management, including selection of rounds (select a slug drills and double slug drills). It involves understanding how and when to use a light. It involves mastering immediate action drills. It involves mastering transitions to a secondary. There is weapons retention. There is using angles and zones to clear rooms and buildings. There is a greater need for awareness of surroundings. There is the legal aspect to it all. I could go on.

In terms of training tactical training also can and should involve force on force training. What expereince do you have there?

One is certainly entitled to believe that sitting in a duck blind is more fun than ______. However I think your comments belie the fact that you don't really have a firm grasp of what tactical shotgunning is. That is fine. It probably means that you would be well served by simply not trying to comment about it.

It sure bothers you fellows that I don't have much use for a mediocre, tactical shotgun, that has little to no use in the field of hunting....IMO

No what I believe is drawing the responses is not that you have no need for a "tactical shotgun." Rather it is how dismissive you have been of the skills and equipment of folks that do make use of them. It has been compounded by the fact that many of those comments have been demonstrably untrue and seem to be coming from someone whose qualifications to make such assertions seem suspect at best. I think duck hunting is boring (I much prefer grouse, pheasants, and doves) which is neither here nor there. If I were to come out and say it took no skill to sit in a heated box and shoot a harmless little duck, after all I've seen some videos and it looks real easy, you would probably feel the need to set me straight, right? How would you respond if I then went on to say your water foul gun was an obese overly long gun that handled like a boat anchor inside the confines of a stairwell or hall way. Its pitiful mag capacity make it a death wish to enter a gun fight with and its longer length of pull make using a proper shooting stance (which I would of course be assuming to be a tactical shooting stance) much more difficult than needed. I could then use a cute vomitng smiley icon to show my true disgust with such a worthless gun. Furthermore the thing is so unreliable it chokes on any less leathal round its fed. Again you might feel I would be enlightened to learn why it has a long barrel, why it doesn't hold 8 round, why the stock is like it is etc etc.

Again no one has taken issue with you not having use or interest for a particular type of gun or kind of shooting. To each his own. The issue is making silly comments based on an improper understanding of them and being rudely dismissive of the skills and equipment of others.