Birdshot kicks as much as reduced recoil 00
- Thread starter Gunsmoker
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lets see what weighs more an ounce of lead or an ounce of lead?
At ten feet, the impact of any shot column at the same muzzle velocity and weight is going to be the same, whether it is #9 or OObuck, the monster that can stand up to #9 shot at ten feet is going to walk right thru 00 buck at ten feet, so who are we kidding?
When we start talking a twenty to thirty inch pattern which is somewhere close to 75 feet then 00 buck will do more,
but as long as we are talking even a 10 inch pattern the energy is going to be so close to being the same that a scale won't read the deferrence!
At ten feet, the impact of any shot column at the same muzzle velocity and weight is going to be the same, whether it is #9 or OObuck, the monster that can stand up to #9 shot at ten feet is going to walk right thru 00 buck at ten feet, so who are we kidding?
When we start talking a twenty to thirty inch pattern which is somewhere close to 75 feet then 00 buck will do more,
but as long as we are talking even a 10 inch pattern the energy is going to be so close to being the same that a scale won't read the deferrence!
Regolith
Member
Big Az....that's simply not true. Most bird shot lacks the ability to penetrate. You shoot a goblin at 3 yards with birdshot, all your going to do is create a large, shallow wound, which might kill him eventually but is unlikely to stop him.
Buckshot on the other hand actually penetrates far enough to hit vitals.
The ONLY Birdshot that can be recomended for self defense is LEAD BB Shot or LARGER. Anything smaller simply doesn't penetrate enough to reliably stop a BG.
Buckshot on the other hand actually penetrates far enough to hit vitals.
The ONLY Birdshot that can be recomended for self defense is LEAD BB Shot or LARGER. Anything smaller simply doesn't penetrate enough to reliably stop a BG.
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Regolith
Member
Here's some further reading, links to site that used ballistics gelatin to test penetration of various forms of birdshot:
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
#8 birdshot
#2 birdshot
#1 birdshot
Lead BB
#4 Buckshot
http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html
#8 birdshot
#2 birdshot
#1 birdshot
Lead BB
#4 Buckshot
bpisler
Member
20 to30 inch pattern at 75 feet? At 15
feet my 500A with a cylinder bore choke
has opened up past 24 inches already.
At 75 feet it would be luck to have more
than a few pellets on the target.I would
not use 7.5 or smaller birdshot for home
defense,i've used #4 turkey loads but in
a shotgun with a super full turkey choke
to keep the pattern tight
Gunsmoker,with all else being equal recoil
is affected by the powder charge and the
projectile weight,not the size of the shot.
There are some birdshot loads that have
brutal recoil,mostly turkey loads which
have anywhere from 1 1/4 to 1 7/8 oz's
of payload.Firing these thru my mossberg
500A is a real snot knocker even with a
limb saver recoil pad mounted on it.
feet my 500A with a cylinder bore choke
has opened up past 24 inches already.
At 75 feet it would be luck to have more
than a few pellets on the target.I would
not use 7.5 or smaller birdshot for home
defense,i've used #4 turkey loads but in
a shotgun with a super full turkey choke
to keep the pattern tight
Gunsmoker,with all else being equal recoil
is affected by the powder charge and the
projectile weight,not the size of the shot.
There are some birdshot loads that have
brutal recoil,mostly turkey loads which
have anywhere from 1 1/4 to 1 7/8 oz's
of payload.Firing these thru my mossberg
500A is a real snot knocker even with a
limb saver recoil pad mounted on it.
rantingredneck
Member
The trouble with this statement is you're treating the shotgun's payload as one projectile when it will behave on impact as multiple projectiles. That one pellet of #7,8,or 9 shot will not penetrate as deeply as that one pellet of 00 or 000 buckshot. Why would 300-400 of them penetrate any deeper?
A charge of birdshot at social range would not be a pleasant thing to be shot with. It would be a gruesome looking shallow tissue wound. It may even be a mortal wound depending on factors such as clothing, range to target, physical size and condition of BG, etc. After being shot though, the BG may well have time to shoot back before succombing to his wound.
On the other hand 00, or 000 buckshot at common HD ranges is generally considered to be a near immediate fight stopper. Especially when liberally applied.
With near Instinanous impact WHERE DOES??????
first you treat the charge of shot as one pellet at a time, when it is really out to several yards in front of the barrel a mass that in real time needs to be meassured as a mass,
When the mass has spread to where the pellets are more individual, then the mass is divided or concididered the pellet.
Every shotgun I have ever shot at 15 feet or 5 yards is under 10 inches, pattern, at thirty feet or ten yards I do see an open choke spreading more, sometimes a lot more.
But at TEN yards the gun I know and would have in my hands is less the 10 inches. And how many homes or truly defense situations, are truly going to be more then 20 to 30 feet, and how many situations are going to shyster defensiable at much more?
When it comes to defense, of self home or family, You need to factor in everything, that incudes the low lives that will want to make a buck off you or the event after the fact!
So put your self on the stand facing some shyster out do make that buck.
And then tell me wich gun is truly defensible:
A shotgun that looks like WEAPON OF MASS DESTUCTION, or one that is a HUNTING/TARGET gun?
The first question with the WMD looking one is going to be: And just how long have you been planning to kill someone?
The next question will be about the load used, and you better hope that the timing of the event is right to have large game loads readily available beacuase: (with as much sarcasim as possible) You are going to tell me that these loads are just in case, and not solely for the purpose of killing someone? and you have been PLANNING this for how long!?
And then back to the topic at hand,
When you are dealing with a TON or more of force/impact (the age old question) which ends the _________ the impact or the penetration???
The COPS I grew up around have always voted Impact! AND they have either done that or cleaned up afterwards!
first you treat the charge of shot as one pellet at a time, when it is really out to several yards in front of the barrel a mass that in real time needs to be meassured as a mass,
When the mass has spread to where the pellets are more individual, then the mass is divided or concididered the pellet.
Every shotgun I have ever shot at 15 feet or 5 yards is under 10 inches, pattern, at thirty feet or ten yards I do see an open choke spreading more, sometimes a lot more.
But at TEN yards the gun I know and would have in my hands is less the 10 inches. And how many homes or truly defense situations, are truly going to be more then 20 to 30 feet, and how many situations are going to shyster defensiable at much more?
When it comes to defense, of self home or family, You need to factor in everything, that incudes the low lives that will want to make a buck off you or the event after the fact!
So put your self on the stand facing some shyster out do make that buck.
And then tell me wich gun is truly defensible:
A shotgun that looks like WEAPON OF MASS DESTUCTION, or one that is a HUNTING/TARGET gun?
The first question with the WMD looking one is going to be: And just how long have you been planning to kill someone?
The next question will be about the load used, and you better hope that the timing of the event is right to have large game loads readily available beacuase: (with as much sarcasim as possible) You are going to tell me that these loads are just in case, and not solely for the purpose of killing someone? and you have been PLANNING this for how long!?
And then back to the topic at hand,
When you are dealing with a TON or more of force/impact (the age old question) which ends the _________ the impact or the penetration???
The COPS I grew up around have always voted Impact! AND they have either done that or cleaned up afterwards!
RNB65
Member
#7 birdshot is for birds, not for self defense. Use buckshot (preferably 00) for defense and save the little pellets for hunting.
The Deer Hunter
Member
They call it birdshot for a reason 
Regolith
Member
Big...again, doesn't work that way. It ISN'T impact that kills, its penetration. Lets put it anothe way: The same amount of energy that is transfered into your target from that shot load is also transfered into your shoulder via the stock and Newton's laws of physics. If the IMPACT of the gun's recoil slamming into your shoulder isn't enough to hurt you, do you think its going to do a damn thing to the bad guy? The REASON that the impact hitting your shoulder from the stock doesn't do any damage is because IT DOESN'T PENETRATE. Birdshot ALSO doesn't penetrate well. And the holes caused by the birdshot are too small to cause a large amount of bleeding.
And it doesn't really matter one iota whether or not shooting somebody in self defense with birdshot is more defensible in court or not, because if you fail to use enough gun you won't live long enough to stand trial.
And it doesn't really matter one iota whether or not shooting somebody in self defense with birdshot is more defensible in court or not, because if you fail to use enough gun you won't live long enough to stand trial.
There's a simpler way of looking at this.
When the gun recoils, all the energy in the shell acts on your shoulder at the same time. 1 oz. of 9 shot going 1200 fps in the same gun will have essentially the same recoil as 1 oz. of 00 buckshot at 1200 fps, or a 1 oz. slug at 1200 fps. There will be a slight difference, due to differences in powder types, wads, etc., but it won't be much.
When the shot hits the target, it hits the target one pellet at a time. Even though it is in a "pattern", each pellet is acting independently from the rest (well, I guess two could follow each other down the same hole at close range, but FWIW think of the pellets all acting independently).
#7.5 shot is one size commonly used for bird hunting. A #7.5 pellet is .095" in diameter and weighs 1/350 oz. There are 350 of the little things in a 1 oz. shell.
00 buckshot is a common defensive load. A 00 pellet is .33" in diameter and weighs 1/8 oz.
So, say you get hit by a tiny pellet at 1000 fps. It won't hurt you too badly; it will sting, but it won't penetrate deep. 100 of them might sting worse, but they won't penetrate any more than 1 of them.
Say you get hit by a .33" 1/8 oz. pellet at 1000 fps. That's going to cause injury. It will penetrate a good few inches or more. Add a few more, and the injury just multiplies.
But the recoil on the shooter's end is the same.
When the gun recoils, all the energy in the shell acts on your shoulder at the same time. 1 oz. of 9 shot going 1200 fps in the same gun will have essentially the same recoil as 1 oz. of 00 buckshot at 1200 fps, or a 1 oz. slug at 1200 fps. There will be a slight difference, due to differences in powder types, wads, etc., but it won't be much.
When the shot hits the target, it hits the target one pellet at a time. Even though it is in a "pattern", each pellet is acting independently from the rest (well, I guess two could follow each other down the same hole at close range, but FWIW think of the pellets all acting independently).
#7.5 shot is one size commonly used for bird hunting. A #7.5 pellet is .095" in diameter and weighs 1/350 oz. There are 350 of the little things in a 1 oz. shell.
00 buckshot is a common defensive load. A 00 pellet is .33" in diameter and weighs 1/8 oz.
So, say you get hit by a tiny pellet at 1000 fps. It won't hurt you too badly; it will sting, but it won't penetrate deep. 100 of them might sting worse, but they won't penetrate any more than 1 of them.
Say you get hit by a .33" 1/8 oz. pellet at 1000 fps. That's going to cause injury. It will penetrate a good few inches or more. Add a few more, and the injury just multiplies.
But the recoil on the shooter's end is the same.
waterhouse
Member
Do you mean to tell me that the COPS in your area go to work and load their shotguns with birdshot? Please go look at post number 5, and click on the link for #8. At a range of 10 feet the penetration is under 5 inches.
One thing that recoil equivalent birdshot is good for is training/practice. Shooting the low brass bulk pack stuff doesn't hurt but it also doesn't replicate the recoil of more powerful and harder kicking buckshot or slugs.
I could see using one of the larger sizes like BB for the first round in your magazine or maybe using a large size if your range was very short or if you were very worried about over penetration, but for most uses you just can't really depend on a load of #4 to get far enough in there to punch holes in something that will leak enough.
I could see using one of the larger sizes like BB for the first round in your magazine or maybe using a large size if your range was very short or if you were very worried about over penetration, but for most uses you just can't really depend on a load of #4 to get far enough in there to punch holes in something that will leak enough.
It's important to know what to expect from a shotgun, recoil-wise.
However, recoil when you're standing still, anticipating it, wincing and pulling the trigger is totally different from the same recoil when you're shooting in a trap competition, hunting, or (I presume) defending your home. I've never had to shoot a shotgun at anyone.
Even when a quail pops out of the brush, you feel nothing. Your mind is 100% focused on something else. More important, for home defense, is to make sure you can handle the gun well when it recoils. But you won't feel a damn thing until it's all over.
However, recoil when you're standing still, anticipating it, wincing and pulling the trigger is totally different from the same recoil when you're shooting in a trap competition, hunting, or (I presume) defending your home. I've never had to shoot a shotgun at anyone.
Even when a quail pops out of the brush, you feel nothing. Your mind is 100% focused on something else. More important, for home defense, is to make sure you can handle the gun well when it recoils. But you won't feel a damn thing until it's all over.
What I am talking about the Cops voting Impact is.
probably sense 1910 or there abouts, experts have derided the 45 acp that it will not penetrate S***, but when you compare it to the calibers that will penetrate the 45ACP, ruled the roast on one shot stops, that is one somewhat well placed hit and the fight is over! And even the (KING OF Penetration) the 125grn HP 357mag hasn't been able to go be get the 45 ACP off the top!
SO when we are talking Home Defense, to me anyway we are talking that we want to end the situation with one shot.
If in a situation where I have to fire a shot I want to know that ONE shot will work! I also know until anyone has done it, trained or untrained that first is a HUGE """""?"""""""", and anybody with sense needs to think about the what if, I miss,
and taken the one shot question together with the what if, at a HD range that will keep me out of prison and have a reasonable chance of keeping the shysters from getting everything I own,
A load of 1 ounce bird shot will give a one shot stop, and if doesn't your Buckshot won't either, because in talking with the cops that clean up the after effects, out to a range three or four times what I have chance to plead my case and not go to jail or prison and loose all I own, Any shotgun load can will and has picked the BG's off there feet and thrown them around like rag dolls!
The biggest question in HD is not the Shot it is what happens after, That is why every decent friearms instructer tells there class'es never shoot reloads!
Or a weapon that can be portayed as "you only have this weapon to kill someone, how long have you been planning this!!????????..............." Wiggle out of this in front of twelve men and women that are hand picked because of what they DO NOT KNOW about firearms!
So will bird shot defend myself in my home? YES and in spades, and at ranges that have to be seen to be beleived!
probably sense 1910 or there abouts, experts have derided the 45 acp that it will not penetrate S***, but when you compare it to the calibers that will penetrate the 45ACP, ruled the roast on one shot stops, that is one somewhat well placed hit and the fight is over! And even the (KING OF Penetration) the 125grn HP 357mag hasn't been able to go be get the 45 ACP off the top!
SO when we are talking Home Defense, to me anyway we are talking that we want to end the situation with one shot.
If in a situation where I have to fire a shot I want to know that ONE shot will work! I also know until anyone has done it, trained or untrained that first is a HUGE """""?"""""""", and anybody with sense needs to think about the what if, I miss,
and taken the one shot question together with the what if, at a HD range that will keep me out of prison and have a reasonable chance of keeping the shysters from getting everything I own,
A load of 1 ounce bird shot will give a one shot stop, and if doesn't your Buckshot won't either, because in talking with the cops that clean up the after effects, out to a range three or four times what I have chance to plead my case and not go to jail or prison and loose all I own, Any shotgun load can will and has picked the BG's off there feet and thrown them around like rag dolls!
The biggest question in HD is not the Shot it is what happens after, That is why every decent friearms instructer tells there class'es never shoot reloads!
Or a weapon that can be portayed as "you only have this weapon to kill someone, how long have you been planning this!!????????..............." Wiggle out of this in front of twelve men and women that are hand picked because of what they DO NOT KNOW about firearms!
So will bird shot defend myself in my home? YES and in spades, and at ranges that have to be seen to be beleived!
RNB65
Member
Al, my friend, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I have to say that what you are saying is completely incorrect and anyone who follows your advice is putting their life in great danger in a self defense situation.
The fundamental flaw in your argument is that once birdshot shot exits the muzzle, it ceases being a single mass and becomes a large collection of very small masses, none of which have the penetration of buckshot. Birdshot at close range will cause a significant flesh wound, but it will not stop an intruder or prevent them from returning fire.
If you feel comfortable using birdshot for self defense, that's fine. But I wouldn't not even consider it because I've seen people who've been shot with birdshot at close range and I know it won't stop an intruder.
The fundamental flaw in your argument is that once birdshot shot exits the muzzle, it ceases being a single mass and becomes a large collection of very small masses, none of which have the penetration of buckshot. Birdshot at close range will cause a significant flesh wound, but it will not stop an intruder or prevent them from returning fire.
If you feel comfortable using birdshot for self defense, that's fine. But I wouldn't not even consider it because I've seen people who've been shot with birdshot at close range and I know it won't stop an intruder.
rantingredneck
Member
There is so much misinformation in that post I don't really know where to begin......
Mythbusters effectively debunked the "picked up and thrown off your feet" thing some time ago. Sheer Newtonian physics dictates that this is impossible.
Shooting someone with birdshot vs. buckshot will not keep you out of prison. What keeps you out of prison is the shooting being legal and justifiable. Shooting someone "just a little bit" is still illegal if you don't have cause.
I'll say again that individual pellets of shot behave independently of one another regardless of their pattern. Birdshot does not have enough momentum to reliably penetrate deeply enough to hit vital organs and shut down the BG. Buckshot does.
If you're wondering what if I miss, then you shouldn't be shooting in that direction to begin with. Read Cooper's rules again. Be aware of what is on the other side of your target. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you have a BG between you and your babies you have a problem that shouldn't be solved by shooting toward your babies. Bird, buck, whatever. Just because something is less prone to penetrating drywall, wood, etc. doesn't mean you can just throw it anywhich way in your home.
Mythbusters effectively debunked the "picked up and thrown off your feet" thing some time ago. Sheer Newtonian physics dictates that this is impossible.
Shooting someone with birdshot vs. buckshot will not keep you out of prison. What keeps you out of prison is the shooting being legal and justifiable. Shooting someone "just a little bit" is still illegal if you don't have cause.
I'll say again that individual pellets of shot behave independently of one another regardless of their pattern. Birdshot does not have enough momentum to reliably penetrate deeply enough to hit vital organs and shut down the BG. Buckshot does.
If you're wondering what if I miss, then you shouldn't be shooting in that direction to begin with. Read Cooper's rules again. Be aware of what is on the other side of your target. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you have a BG between you and your babies you have a problem that shouldn't be solved by shooting toward your babies. Bird, buck, whatever. Just because something is less prone to penetrating drywall, wood, etc. doesn't mean you can just throw it anywhich way in your home.
waterhouse
Member
Do you honestly believe this? Do you have data to back this up? Next time you are at the range, bring a 50 pound bag of dirt, stand 5 feet away, and shoot it with your favorite load (buck, birdshot, whatever). Notice that the 50 pound bag did not get thrown around. What makes you think 175 pound bad guys will get "picked up off their feet." If your cop friends are actually telling you this, they have no idea what they are talking about.
The biggest question when someone is trying to cause you grievous bodily harm/death is whether you survive or not. With well placed shots, you are more likely to survive the attack if you shoot the bad guy with buckshot.
You seem concerned about how you will look after the shooting. You seem to think that if you use a "hunting gun" with "hunting ammo" you'll do better off in front of a jury. Guess what? They call it buckshot for a reason. It is "hunting ammo."
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
First, keep it civil and on The High Road, folks, this is veering close to the line.
Second, birdshot while still in the plastic cup acts like a single mass, but this degrades PDQ just a few feet from the muzzle.
Buck is almost always a good choice for HD,even with the many variables we ALL have to take in account.
My gut feeling is that 1 buck may be the best all around choice but I have not done enough testing yet.
Meanwhile, the Casa is protected by a load of 00 that I have tested and found excellent.
Second, birdshot while still in the plastic cup acts like a single mass, but this degrades PDQ just a few feet from the muzzle.
Buck is almost always a good choice for HD,even with the many variables we ALL have to take in account.
My gut feeling is that 1 buck may be the best all around choice but I have not done enough testing yet.
Meanwhile, the Casa is protected by a load of 00 that I have tested and found excellent.
Tony50ae
Member
Big Al,
I have to disagree with you. You stated that if 1ounce of birdshot does not give a one shot stop, then 1 ounce buckshot won't either. Granted nothing is guaranteed a 1 shot stop short of some serious firepower, but buckshot will allways penetrate further than birdshot. It has been proven the only sure way to stop someone is to hit the central nervous system.
Without your brain or nerves to transmit your brain's wishes to the body you stop moving, period. Birdshot has been proven not to penetrate the human body reliably enough to hit the CNS. Buckshot on the other hand can penetrate enough. If you don't hit the CNS then you have to rely on blood loss or the shock of just being shot to stop the threat. Birdshot usually won't penetrate enough for any major blood loss to happen. Of course though a lot of people will stop after being shot just because they realize they were shot! But I don't place my hopes on that shock alone. That leaves blood loss or a CNS shot.
Birdshot was made for birds. Buckshot was made to hunt deer. Wonder why hunters don't use birdshot on deer? Also every police agency in this country that uses shotguns use slugs or buckshot. You mention cop friends. Bet their agency does not use birdshot in the shotguns.There has been numerous tests to show why birdshot cannot always give a one shot stop. If you do not penetrate enough to do damage to the vitals how can you expect otherwise? Of course buckshot is not always a sure bet either but is has been proven to raise the odds to a more acceptable level.
Oh one more thing. You mentioned 45acp not being a good penetrator. Yet like you said, it works. I can tell you one thing, it penetrates enough to get the job done. It penetrates more than birshot even.
I have to disagree with you. You stated that if 1ounce of birdshot does not give a one shot stop, then 1 ounce buckshot won't either. Granted nothing is guaranteed a 1 shot stop short of some serious firepower, but buckshot will allways penetrate further than birdshot. It has been proven the only sure way to stop someone is to hit the central nervous system.
Without your brain or nerves to transmit your brain's wishes to the body you stop moving, period. Birdshot has been proven not to penetrate the human body reliably enough to hit the CNS. Buckshot on the other hand can penetrate enough. If you don't hit the CNS then you have to rely on blood loss or the shock of just being shot to stop the threat. Birdshot usually won't penetrate enough for any major blood loss to happen. Of course though a lot of people will stop after being shot just because they realize they were shot! But I don't place my hopes on that shock alone. That leaves blood loss or a CNS shot.
Birdshot was made for birds. Buckshot was made to hunt deer. Wonder why hunters don't use birdshot on deer? Also every police agency in this country that uses shotguns use slugs or buckshot. You mention cop friends. Bet their agency does not use birdshot in the shotguns.There has been numerous tests to show why birdshot cannot always give a one shot stop. If you do not penetrate enough to do damage to the vitals how can you expect otherwise? Of course buckshot is not always a sure bet either but is has been proven to raise the odds to a more acceptable level.
Oh one more thing. You mentioned 45acp not being a good penetrator. Yet like you said, it works. I can tell you one thing, it penetrates enough to get the job done. It penetrates more than birshot even.
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