Black Talons for carry?

[justinvoigts]

In regards to the talons i have 14 of my own in 40 they are somewhat hard to find i have a few boxes of ranger t series in 40 cal also in 9mm all mags i own for the 2 guns are loaded with these in the nightstands they are far more superior to all other winchester rounds that are out there go on their website and check it out the expansion is superior to the sxt and talons and the lubilox coating is clear not black like the black talon check out the site 9mm expands to 40 cal size 40 cal expands to 45 cal size and 45 must be seen to be believed check it educate yourself

 

[rscalzo]

If you ever have to use them, you are likely to have problems from the prosecutors

What??? Maybe they will question the shirt you are wearing too. If you are brought up on criminal charges, anything and everything can become an issue until the judge rules otherwise. Being aware of the laws involving deadly force and its use will be more important that the load carried.

As far as the Black Talon being all that great, doubt it. We handled a shooting point blank with a 1911 loaded with the original Black Talon 230 grain load. It didn't expand at all as if did not hit bone.

As someone stated earlier, there is no magic bullet. You might as well just color a standard WW HP with a magic marker. I do laugh when I see some paying ridiculous amounts for a box of them. I still have some left over from our departmental ammo rotations. They will get shot at one point.

 

[rcmodel]

Black Talons are a generation or two behind todays bullet designs.

In other words, they weren't all that great back then, and they sure aren't that great today.

The .45 ACP in particular often failed to expand at all.

rc

 

[AgentAdam]

*WARNING* The "Supreme" SXT are de-fanged.

Get the "Winchester Ranger-T(talon)" series

 

[jbrown50]

The latest iteration of this design is the Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1. The FBI liked the way they performed in their combination barrier penetration and jello tests so it's been adopted as their current issue round in 40 S&W and 9mm.

Aside from the fancy long name, they're tactical Bonded Ranger T's. I have a box of older Black Talons and when comparing the bullets the difference isn't readily apparent. There's the color of course and the older bullets have a slightly deeper hollow point, that's all. It just goes to show what the ammo manufacturers have been able to do over the years in tweeking a basically good design using different lead alloy combinations and recently, core-jacket welding.

I carry the 147 gr. 9mm PDX1 in my Kahr PM9. They feed fine through my PM9, are very accurate, have low recoil so follow up shots are very quick and are relatively cheap.

 

[kd7nqb]

What you found ammo? That's the surprise right there.

 

[altitude_19]

Simple answer

Only trust it if you've tested it extensively (100-200 rds is what I prefer)yourself in your weapon. If you can barely find enough to load the magazines you've got, you won't be able to test it extensively will you? I'm not about to trust an ammunition I can only keep one box of for the rest of my life. I change out defensive ammo atleast every 2 years. How often do you change it out and what do you intend to do when you can't find more Black Talon?

 

[84B20]

I agree with NG VI, the defense attorney was useless in that case. He should have brought up the fact that a hollow point is less likely to exit the perp and injure an innocent bystander that is why it is preferred. IMHO. I recently switched to Winchester PDX1's for the simple reason it is a standard FBI carry and how can a prosecutor argue with that. By the way, several years ago I tested Black Talons by firing into a 55 gal. drum filled with water. Here is what it looked like...

 

[rondog]

Hmmmm, I still have a full box of .357 BT's, guess I should hang onto 'em.

 

[AgentAdam]

Now that i think about it I haven't had or heard of any decent gun that wouldn't feed a Black/Ranger Talon. I think they are a great bullet profile, not to mention the mushroom affect and the shredding the talons do.

 

[flrfh213]

i run "deer stopper" or something like that from Georgia arms in my 357 mag and if that don't stop them i will look for a deer to shoot.. but if you ask me, and i guess you kinda did. the follow up shot is more important to me than brand..

had a chat with a gunsmith and he was carrying a .32. i told him i had a 357 and don't think i would trust a 32 till he pointed out a simple fact.... he simply asked if i wanted to get shot with a 32.... doh.... nope so i guess 2x.32 will work for him in a pinch. but get the follow up shot if it is needed your life may depend on it...

 

[Boba Fett]

Love the RA45T out of my Sig P220.

I didn't get them because of hype, I spent a number of hours researching the performance of the round in terms of consistent and good expansion as well as reliability and grouping.

These links are probably what finally convinced me. And of course I practiced with a box or two of them...very accurate and the SIG eats them with out any problem.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm One of the best links for showing how hollow points expand IMHO.



Versus something like this Federal 230-gr Hydrashok


Or these 165-gr PowRball



Of course how the round will actually perform on a person, through layers of clothing, or during monsoon season is often the subject of heated debate. Yes, real life is different than a mud test or a ballistics gel test. These links are simply to show the potential. They help cut through some of the hype.

As far as the legal problems, I wouldn't worry about it much. Buy what works best for you with your firearm. Buy what your research and experience leads you to believe will protect you and your family best and have a good lawyer on the speed dial. You have to be alive to worry about the legal issues...

 

[MR.LOKI]

Ahhhhh the myth of the uber deadly black talon lives, at least he didnt load +p+ loads.

 

[Frank Ettin]

They seem to be something of a collectors' item. Also, the bulet is an old design. Federal HST, Remington Golden Sabre and Speer Gold Dot are probably better choices these days. Keep the Black Talons as an historical curiosity and use one of the others.

 

[mbt2001]

Why bother with the potential idiot activist lawyer lawsuits??

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I run Speer Gold Dot 230 grain .45's for carry ammo. And the same grain full metal Jackets for plinking targets.

I recall the so called black talon problem way back when, I think we are way past that now considering what is availible to civilians out there today. Some like it hot and fast, others slow and massive.

Badguy: Banabanabanbanabanbanbanabnababababang.
Me: Bang Bang.. hello 911?

 

[novaDAK]

Save the Black Talons, and get some Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, HST, or Ranger ammo. Can't go wrong with any of these.

 

[JSmith]

Anyone have an opinion on HydraShoks in .45 ACP? I have a box of those in the nightstand drawer.

Good, bad, or indifferent?

 

[MJZZZ]

I had feeding problems with the Hydrashoks in my Kimber Ultra CDP, the Winchester RA45T do fine. It has to be the rounder nose. I carry Winchester Ranger T's in all my carry guns. Mike

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Middle thumbnail picture in previous post number 33 shows what the Talon does or did the way I recall it. Not only it expands but slices blood vessals, nerves and other important pathways inside a human body as it penetrates. I recall several news cases of the time where the Trauma center doctors were complaining of the extensive damage that the talons did. Sure, they can stop the bleeding, but the patient may have a nerve severed forever and they might as well amputate the arm or something because it's useless to the patient; deadweight.

 

[tkopp]

Just as a note; if you're using the shorter barrel models (as I believe you said you were) of the 1911, make sure you get the +p Rangers. The standard load 230gr bullets don't always have the energy to open properly when fired from a barrel under 4".

 

[Portedglock26]

I have found out the hard way that SPEER is pretty much the big kid on the playground. Now the hard part is figuring out 115's or 124 out of a glock 26 ported barrel! I know with 115 you get the crack and flash but you always get the 14" of pen. I just spent 32 bucks on 20 124 speer GDHP's there nickel plated casing. They just look better then the corbons and you can tell!

 

[Zerodefect]

another vote for: Save the black talons as a collector item. They're too old for carry purposes. And you'd have to shoot a box or two anyway to make sure they were reliable in your gun.

As others said, get a few boxes of Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, Rem Golden Sabre, or Speer Lawman.

 

[andre73]

Black Talon Water Test Video

Check out my test of the black talon in .45 ACP

Black Talon Expansion Test

I have only the one box. Bad little round...

 

[mljdeckard]

Congratulations on your box of overpriced magic beans.

I don't mean to be harsh on you, but the hype and lore of Black Talons is so well documented already. Put them back in the box and keep them as collector's items. Then load up with Winchester Ranger JHP ammo, it's the exact same thing. I use 230 gr HSTs, but the real world difference probably isn't worth worrying about.

Could they get you in trouble? Yes and no, in that it shouldn't matter what gun or bullets you use as long as it's a clean shoot, but yes in that for every norm, there is a D.A. who has been sleeping on the couch who decided to take it out on YOU today. I go back to WHY would you want to use them if there is more modern JHP ammo that wasn't in the news headlines by name as a cop killer?