Blowback vs Delayed Blowback recoil impulse 9mm

someguy2800

someguy2800

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Continuing the discussion from the S&W Response thread, I made the video below this morning to show the difference of a straight blowback vs a delayed blowback 9mm and talk about the sight disruption and reduced noise when shooting suppressed.

Let's hear your thoughts for anyone that has shot both. Worth the added expense? Would you ever choose to have a straight blowback over a delayed?

My opinion is that its a night and day difference and I'm personally disappointed that in the year 2023 we still have non delayed $800-$1000 PCC's. For that money someone with the R&D and manufacturing prowess of S&W or Ruger sure ought to be able to figure it out.

www.youtube.com

Blowback vs Delayed Blowback 9mm

Showing the difference between a straight blowback 9mm and a Scheel Manufacturing roller delayed 9mm
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
I put one of the CMMG rigs together for a friend of mine a while back. I recommended it to him based on previous experiences shooting others' PCCs. It is a night and day difference. A straight blowback recoils like something between a 5.56 and a 7.62x39. The CMMG rig ran a lot like an MP5. Smooth. If you're just clowning around and want a PCC platform to burn some 9mm, the blowback is fine; but if going fast or you don't already have a PCC, the delayed system is the way to go.

We didn't have any problems with reliability. We ran it with both Endo Mags and an adapter with stick mags.
 
My only experience with delayed blowback’s are Mp5 and Mp5k PDW sub guns that I was issued on SRT-SWAT. The H&K roller system is awesome! I put thousands and thousands of rounds through these guns, on burst or full auto keeping shots in the kill zone is a piece of cake (SRT-SWAT 2003-2018).

I don’t find the recoil of a blowback 9mm PCC like my Ruger (with a M*CARBO buffer) to be much of a thing at all. Others who play PCC games that require lots of quick shots on multiple plates have different needs, so they will benefit much more from a softer recoil impulse from a delayed blowback action than I. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
I have a Ruger PC Carbine, 9mm ... the recoil impulse to me is comparable to .223 (Mini-14 or AR). It is surprising how much recoil it generates.
 
Great video, did a good job showing the practical difference between the two systems.

You can definitely see and hear the difference between the two. One of the scheel's systems is definitely on my short list of parts to acquire.
 
someguy2800 said:
difference of a straight blowback vs a delayed blowback 9mm ... sight disruption

disappointed that in the year 2023 we still have non delayed $800-$1000 PCC's. For that money someone with the R&D and manufacturing prowess of S&W or Ruger sure ought to be able to figure it out.
Click to expand...
IMHO, for the past 25 years, shooters competing in 3-gun matches and PCC/match component manufacturers did all the extensive R&D to reduce sharpness of blowback recoil from heavier buffer weights/recoil springs to adjustable weight buffer to arrive at short stroke solutions (To include LRBHO). And to optimize "dwell time" of bolt contact with chamber for more consistent pressure build/max average pressures, R&D into delayed buffer, magnetic delayed buffer and radial delayed blowback.

All these resulted in front sight staying steady with reduction of recoil for fast follow up shots required for match shooting where stage time trumps other scoring factors.

Here's link to post where different types of PCC bolt/buffer set ups are compared including delayed blowback and CMMG Radial Delayed Blowback System™ - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-pcc-bolt-choice.903452/#post-12248344

"Short" history of short stroking PCC to tame harsh recoil to keep front sight on target/flatten the muzzle while maintaining LRBHO (Not comprehensive or chronological):

someguy2800 said:
had a CMMG radial delayed setup ... but I was never able to make mine work reliably.
Click to expand...
Video result of extreme "short stroke" bolt and Delayed buffer system (Very flat shooting with no muzzle rise and faster trigger reset) - https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3526785537439787

So I am not sure what else gun manufacturers like S&W/Ruger could do to improve upon what has already been done when they have to build PCCs that must reliably cycle with different bullet weight ammunition.
 
It would be interesting to work out a jig with a lot of spring gauges to try to say something definitive about recoil. I see one problem would be the issue of legally having a way to pull the trigger without upsetting the jig. Any electronic device would be out, but something like an old-fashioned remote camera release would work.

That said, my two 9mm carbines are a High-Point/Tower Bullpup and the, now an SBR, CZ scorpion. While they are both blowback, the recoil is very different.
 
Hasaf said:
It would be interesting to work out a jig with a lot of spring gauges to try to say something definitive about recoil.
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Essentially all that's already been done and tested to death by match shooters and component manufacturers listed in previous post regards to felt recoil and muzzle rise/wander.

Check out this video of Jerry Miculek fast shooting six PCCs and some essentially with no muzzle rise.
www.youtube.com

Review of 6 PCC Rifles - Part 2 Range Day

Check out Part 2 of our complete review and test of the 6 PCC Rifles!Help support the production of future videos and get some exclusive INSTRUCTIONAL and be...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
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LiveLife said:
So I am not sure what else gun manufacturers like S&W/Ruger could do to improve upon what has already been done when they have to build PCCs that must reliably cycle with different bullet weight ammunition.
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They don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to put it in a production gun people can buy off the rack.
 
someguy2800 said:
They don't need to reinvent the wheel, they just need to put it in a production gun people can buy off the rack.
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That's like saying "Why can't S&W/Ruger sell AR15s that can hit milk jugs at 1200-1500 yards?" Well, they can and not reinvent the wheel by duplicating builds long-range match shooters already have done but that would drive prices to over $3000. How much market share would such AR15s garner when one can buy AR15s for $400-650?

So manufacturers have to make business decisions to sell PCCs that are "good enough" at attractive enough price points to make sales and profit.

BTW, hitting milk jugs at 1200-1500 yards with .223 AR15s
www.youtube.com

223 AR-15 Shooting Milk Jugs at 1200 & 1500 Yards!

In this video, I push my 18" AR15 Special Purpose Rifle well outside what most people believe it's capable off and successfully impact a 1-gallon milk jug at...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
 
LiveLife said:
That's like saying "Why can't S&W/Ruger sell AR15s that can hit milk jugs at 1200-1500 yards?" Well, they can and not reinvent the wheel by duplicating builds long-range match shooters already have done but that would drive prices to over $3000. How much market share would such AR15s garner when one can buy AR15s for $400-650?

So manufacturers have to make business decisions to sell PCCs that are "good enough" at attractive enough price points to make sales and profit.

BTW, hitting milk jugs at 1200-1500 yards with .223 AR15s
www.youtube.com

223 AR-15 Shooting Milk Jugs at 1200 & 1500 Yards!

In this video, I push my 18" AR15 Special Purpose Rifle well outside what most people believe it's capable off and successfully impact a 1-gallon milk jug at...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com
Click to expand...

I disagree. You’re confaiting it to make it sound like it’s difficult and complex issue to solve and it’s just not. As evidenced by my Scheel setup. The patents are all expired, we know how to do it, the manufacturing complexities have been solved by modern CNC machining. Look at the amount of machine work that goes into the outside of a S&W M&P slide just for asthetics. You mean to tell me they couldn’t make a roller delay 9mm for less than $1000? Someone will, it’s just a matter of who wants to be first.

I would liken it to adding optics cuts on pistols. 10 years ago that was an aftermarket only proposition and now people demand it be included and they won’t pay extra for because they can get it elsewhere if you won’t. That’s how consumers drive business decisions.

Another example would be free float handguards on AR’s. Once that was either an aftermarket thing you needed to do yourself or pay for a high end brand. Now they are nearly ubiquitous and plastic clamshells are a rarity. Manufactures need to keep up or get left behind.
 
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LiveLife said:
Yes, that could be the case.

I was responding to "entry level" PCC pricing, not higher end models.
Click to expand...

Well that’s why I said in the first post I’m disappointed still seeing 800-1000 dollar blowback guns. That’s rediculous in my opinion. If someone wants entry level, the hipoint, sub2000, and some of the cheaper AR9’s are there for them and appropriately priced. In the 600+ price range I think it’s time we demand better.
 
I wondered where SA was getting the nerve to charge $1299 for a blowback.

A friend had a low end PCC that he had to tinker with a lot to get it reliable, but it ended up doing very well.
 
someguy2800 said:
Well that’s why I said in the first post I’m disappointed still seeing 800-1000 dollar blowback guns.
Click to expand...
You did start this thread with mention of S&W Response and many would consider $700 "entry level" PCC, although modular magwell to accept Glock/M&P magazines is an enhancement. (BTW, Just Right carbine originated modular magwell for Glock/M&P/1911 magazines)

someguy2800 said:
Continuing the discussion from the S&W Response thread
Click to expand...
I do believe delayed blowback PCCs that will work reliably with all 115/124/147 gr factory ammunition (And I mean reliable operation with acceptable recoil and LRBHO feature) will be released in the future if the market demand is there.

But other than 3-gun match shooters, I am not sure if that demand exists currently.
 
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LiveLife said:
You did start this thread with mention of S&W Response and many would consider $700 "entry level" PCC, although modular magwell to accept Glock/M&P magazines is an enhancement. (BTW, Just Right carbine originated modular magwell for Glock/M&P/1911 magazines)


I do believe delayed blowback PCCs that will work reliably with all 115/124/147 gr factory ammunition (And I mean reliable operation with acceptable recoil and LRBHO feature) will be released in the future if the market demand is there.

But other than 3-gun match shooters, I am not sure if that demand exists currently.
Click to expand...

I believe if people were aware of how big a of a difference it makes, the demand would currently exist.
 
I'm definitely hearing grumblings of the market wanting delayed blowback PCC's

A number of years ago when a new PCC got released the response was usually "oh cool, another PCC"

Lately, I'm hearing "yawn, another blowback PCC" in the circles I run around in at least.
 
someguy2800 said:
I believe if people were aware of how big a of a difference it makes, the demand would currently exist.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree but that demand doesn't currently exist and won't exist until the customer base is better "educated" on the difference.

Will that happen in the next few years? In 10 years? I am not sure and that's the business assessment that S&W/Ruger surely have done along with other gun manufacturers as to be profitable, business decision has to be made to bring to market products at price point that will sell well. (Look at KelTec and Sub2000 PCC in 9mm/40S&W now in second generation and even with $100 rebate on $350 retail pricing, many customers are not sure about getting one)

I think customers looking to buy PCCs may see the pricing of $700 PCCs with comparison to $450-$600 .223 AR15 and may be reluctant to buy PCCs chambered in 9mm/40S&W compared to more powerful flatter shooting .223 cartridge with effective range far beyond PCCs. To some, cost savings of shooting 9mm/40S&W over .223 may be a consideration but there's 22LR upper/CMMG 22LR bolt options that will trump cost savings over 9mm/40S&W with 22LR (Currently $11/50 for 9mm vs less than $3/50 for 22LR).

gotboostvr said:
I'm definitely hearing grumblings of the market wanting delayed blowback PCC's

Lately, I'm hearing "yawn, another blowback PCC" in the circles I run around in at least.
Click to expand...
So until market condition and demand changes, I don't think we will see "mass produced" delayed blowback PCCs anytime soon. If market condition and demand changes, yes.

And keep in mind that reliability of delayed blowback action is heavily custom tailored to ammunition selection. For match shooters willing to custom tailor the delayed action components to achieve reliability, especially with LRBHO, that's one thing. For average customer shooting the cheapest ammunition, delivering reliability with all different ammunition is another thing.
 
LiveLife said:
I absolutely agree but that demand doesn't currently exist and won't exist until the customer base is better "educated" on the difference.

Will that happen in the next few years? In 10 years? I am not sure and that's the business assessment that S&W/Ruger surely have done along with other gun manufacturers as to be profitable, business decision has to be made to bring to market products at price point that will sell well. (Look at KelTec and Sub2000 PCC in 9mm/40S&W now in second generation and even with $100 rebate on $350 retail pricing, many customers are not sure about getting one)

I think customers looking to buy PCCs may see the pricing of $700 PCCs with comparison to $450-$600 .223 AR15 and may be reluctant to buy PCCs chambered in 9mm/40S&W compared to more powerful flatter shooting .223 cartridge with effective range far beyond PCCs. To some, cost savings of shooting 9mm/40S&W over .223 may be a consideration but there's 22LR upper/CMMG 22LR bolt options that will trump cost savings over 9mm/40S&W with 22LR (Currently $11/50 for 9mm vs less than $3/50 for 22LR).


So until market condition and demand changes, I don't think we will see "mass produced" delayed blowback PCCs anytime soon. If market condition and demand changes, yes.

And keep in mind that reliability of delayed blowback action is heavily custom tailored to ammunition selection. For match shooters willing to custom tailor the delayed action components to achieve reliability, especially with LRBHO, that's one thing. For average customer shooting the cheapest ammunition, delivering reliability with all different ammunition is another thing.
Click to expand...

My Scheel setup functions and locks back on everything from a 124 gr at 800 fps, 150 grain sub loads, 124 +P defensive loads, 115 grain range ammo, and everything in between without changing anything. All the ammo that won’t run reliable in my glocks gets shot in the AR9 because it doesn’t care. I’m using the heaviest springs in all three slots.
 
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someguy2800 said:
My Scheel setup functions and locks back on everything from a 124 gr at 800 fps, 150 grain sub loads, 124 +P defensive loads, 115 grain range ammo, and everything in between without changing anything.
Click to expand...
Same for my Just Right carbine using factory bolt/spring and several AR based PCCs and New Frontier Armory Glock lower PCCs with 95/100/115/124/147 gr reloads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-9mm-40s-w-45acp.799231/page-4#post-10338994

I am using H3 buffer - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/9mm-pcc-bolt-choice.903452/#post-12248344
 
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Even though I’m more than satisfied with my Ruger PCC, especially for $500, but looking at the Sheel device, I’m thinking that could have replaced the tungsten slug in the bolt.

I would have paid extra for that.

Good video, thank you.
 
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