No, I said I am not a badged law enforcement officer and I have no sworn duty to come to the aid of others, especially strangers. "I" doesn't include "you" or "us".You were the one that said its not up to us to step in
I do shoot a lot on the move, although I wouldnt say it was "considerable". I shoot once or twice a week, and that type of shooting is included at each outing.You clearly believe you have a considerable amount of experience shooting on the move and further believe that you have acquired an unusual (statistically speaking) level of skill in this regard. A person with that level of experience AND who has become competent at that skill will have a much different chance of making headshots in a gunfight situation than someone who has never done anything other than shoot at a static target from a static standing position.
Well, since it appears you got it all figured out, and your all about TV, and practice is a waste of time, maybe we'll just all stay at home and watch NCIS like you (never seen it, by the way), and skip the daily/weekly practice.Now, with all this, you are going to line up a head shot while crouching, prone, moving, or from cover in a combat situation under fire and make it...welcome to NCIS Tuesdays at 8. Tell Gibbs hi for me.
No one is arguing against that. I would suggest, the only way to truly accomplish that though, is leave your gun at home. Maybe the car too.I have decided in advance that my first duty is to "do no harm" to innocents. That's a decision I can live with.
So after all that, it simply comes down to the last part of your last sentence there. So, are you practiced enough, and at the top of your game, to the best of your abilities, or do you just carry that gun?You do not always have to shoot, but you should always be ready to.
most-potentially-likely-to-defeat-body-armor 9mm?
You seem to have a "I'm Rambo and I don't miss" mentality with no understanding of potential liability beyond the video game playing out in your head. We don't get do-overs or health packs in real life. Thankfully, given your disregard for innocent bystanders, I am glad you have never had to use your ninja skills and I hope I nor any of my loved ones are in the same area as you if you ever do. I would suggest taking Massad Ayoob's MAG 40 class.I would suggest, the only way to truly accomplish that though, is leave your gun at home. Maybe the car too.
No such illusions.You seem to have a "I'm Rambo and I don't miss" mentality with no understanding of potential liability beyond the video game playing out in your head.
Your assumption, based in what fact?Thankfully, given your disregard for innocent bystanders...
First off, Im not rushing in to save anyone, thats your statement. I never said that was my thought or intent. But you are right, it is on them if they chose not to be prepared. Just like its on the gun carrier, if they arent. Im trying my best to do just that. How about you?Remember, all of those unarmed people you are rushing in to save had the same options we did and chose not to be prepared. In my mind, that's on them, not on me.
I know the rules.Rule #4: Know your target and what lies beyond it.
I do shoot a lot on the move, although I wouldnt say it was "considerable". I shoot once or twice a week, and that type of shooting is included at each outing.
Both, but mostly quickly getting off the "X", and drawing and shooting as I go.When you say "on the move", do you mean run and gun (run between stations and then shoot), or actually on the move?
Yes and no. Distance is usually the factor.I can say positively that you moving and shooting is the most difficult scenario to score hits, even if your target is stationary.
Im lucky enough to have a similar range, and we can do pretty much anything we want, as long as we're safe. None of the restrictions on speed, holsters, moving, full auto, etc. I do shoot some rifle (iron sighted/red dot equipped AR's/AK's) in a similar fashion as you describe, but not at those distances, 25 yards and in usually. Beyond that, I usually take a knee, squat, or butt when I shoot.I'm lucky enough to have a private range were we can pretty well do what we want, including shooting while running with fully automatic firearms belonging to an FFL07 SOT friend. Shooting while moving at a good clip, I have difficulty scoring more than a few hits (like 3-5) out of 30 rounds on a static target that is 50 yards away, even when closing that distance. The fact that the ratio is similar with semi-auto and full auto fire is also telling; if I'm not moving, my accuracy is far better with semi auto.
As the distance increases, my speed decreases, or flat out stops (more like run and gun). My sight usage also increases, and becomes more focused. I may start and shoot while moving at 50', but Im usually moving in towards the target as I go when I do. At that point, Im not moving real fast, but I am moving, and generally straight on, or just slightly laterally to the target. As I get closer, my speed tends to pick up, both in movement and shooting. I normally dont have any troubles keeping all my rounds on target at 15 yards while moving in though. Im not "running", or even walking fast, when I start to shoot either.Using handguns at 50 feet, the ratio of hits is about the same; ~15-20% on the silhouette.
At that point, Im not moving real fast, but I am moving, and generally straight on, or just slightly laterally to the target
You do something once or twice a week that most gun owners have never done. That's definitely going to fit the bill for "considerable".I do shoot a lot on the move, although I wouldnt say it was "considerable". I shoot once or twice a week, and that type of shooting is included at each outing.
I understand. From what I see at public ranges, it's not uncommon for shooters to miss human-sized targets at that kind of distance when shooting from a static position with no pressure whatsoever.You do also realize Im not suggesting or advocating taking moving head shots at 25 yards, and what Im talking about, is at across the room, 25 +/- and in distances.
In that case, at longer distances, Id say shoot or run, or shoot then run. Never said I was an "expert". When you say "we're", I think of covering fire.Shooting on the run, and I do mean on the run, from one piece of cover or concealment to the next.
Not everything fits every scenario. One problem with theses sort of threads. Theres always that "but what if".Why practice that way? Because I can't see myself walking or even jogging when I'm dodging incoming rounds in a real world scenario, however unlikely it may be.
Yup. And anything generating good hits beyond that, usually raises your confidence level quite a bit too.It's also a lot more interesting than putting round after round into COM on a static target.
Ive seen the same thing, and as I said earlier thats a scary thing, yet that doesnt seem to bother some.I understand. From what I see at public ranges, it's not uncommon for shooters to miss human-sized targets at that kind of distance when shooting from a static position with no pressure whatsoever.
I do agree that head shots should be practiced, but I wouldn't advocate that head shots should be a first resort.
Even as when used as a "failure to stop" option, there's the danger that the failure to stop isn't due to body armor but is due to misses. In that case, shifting the target from COM to head isn't going to be productive.
Shooting while moving at a good clip, I have difficulty scoring more than a few hits (like 3-5) out of 30 rounds on a static target that is 50 yards away, even when closing that distance.
As for head shots, try this the next time you go to the range. Buy a bag of balloons, a tank of helium and a ball of string.
Fill the balloons with helium ant tie them so they float between 5 and 6 feet up. Start at 15 yards and move parallel to the targets at the best speed you can make hits at (no stopping to shoot) and see how many you can hit as they bob around in the breeze. 15 yards, 45 feet, probably a good approximation of the engagement range against an active shooter in a large venue.
I think we've drifted quite a bit from the OP's question, which had to do with what 9mm round best penetrates body armor, vis-a-vis what the SB terrorists were originally reported as wearing, but weren't.
Yes, choosing to exit the situation safely if that opportunity presents itself rather than abandoning the safety that opportunity presents and "running toward the sound of gunfire" if you are not paid to perform that job is called common sense, especially if you have a family relying on you to be alive to support them.If I'm armed and people are getting shot around me, I'd pray that the courage to defend the innocent would find me. I would hope I would not run, to allow others to be slaughtered. I don't think I could live with myself if I did. There's a word for that attitude.
I wish there were even a range around here where a person could try such a thing. <sigh>As for head shots, try this the next time you go to the range. Buy a bag of balloons, a tank of helium and a ball of string.
Fill the balloons with helium ant tie them so they float between 5 and 6 feet up. Start at 15 yards and move parallel to the targets at the best speed you can make hits at (no stopping to shoot) and see how many you can hit as they bob around in the breeze. 15 yards, 45 feet, probably a good approximation of the engagement range against an active shooter in a large venue.