Bolt Actions over Semi-Autos for sniping

[BaiscInfantry]

What is the best choice for sniper rifles? I think bolt actions are the best because if the weapon is good then it puts all failure to hit a target on the shooter not the weapon. With semi-auto's a slight amount of gas is diverted in order to push the bolt back. With a bolt action all the gas is focused on speeding the round down the barrel adding more velocity. But hey thats just me. Anybody else think differently?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Haven't seen too many bolt actions on the high power line and those guys seem to do "okay"...

In years past the bolt obviously got the nod when it came to sniping, but over time semi-automatic weapons have been pushed to the limit by civilians and the military has taken note...

 

[Oldtimer]

The slogan of "One shot, one kill" doesn't always work in REAL-life tactical "sniper" shooting.

The WW-I Springfield '03 rifle was an excellent sniper rifle, and many of them saw action in WW-II and Korea. The WW-II M-1 "D" Garand, however, was much better for making follow-up shots.

Both bolt-action rifles AND semi-auto rifles CAN be utilized effectively as sniper rifles. The bolt-action rifles are somewhat easier to build up as sniper-type rifles AND they are cheaper than the semi-auto's.

Bolt-action rifles have a bit more recoil than the semi-auto's, so my choice would be semi-auto for an extended/continuous amount of shooting.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I'm no rifleman and don't know anything about sniping, but I was at the range yesterday and consistenly hit a metal gong @ 468 yds with a WWI P17 Enfield with iron sights. Missed it more often than hit it with a Garand.

 

[BaiscInfantry]

Bolt Actions vs Semi-Autos

Modern military sniper rifles have been leaning more on the semi-auto side but precision tuned rifles i believe are still bolt action. what makes a good rifle into a "can knock the cherry off the tip of a cancer stick at 600 yards" rifle is precision tuning like free floating and fluting. plus glassing a bore and match ammo.

However, today even Blackwater mercs use precision AR-15's with scopes to take down enemies in iraq. The tradional marine sniper still uses a bolt action. So were does all this talk leave us? I am interested in what others have to say. :banghead:

 

[ID_shooting]

Auto loaders still have one tactical flaw when you are talking a rifle used for concealed engagment and evasion. They tend to fling brass around. If you are urban and not too concerned about staying out of sight and covering your tracks, then ya, go to a semi. If you are slinking around the bush and you want to take out one target then slink away with out leaving any evidence behind, go bolt.

Me? A Win M70 was good enough for Hathcock, it is good enough for me.

 

[DMK]

With semi-auto's a slight amount of gas is diverted in order to push the bolt back. With a bolt action all the gas is focused on speeding the round down the barrel adding more velocity.

Lower velocity doesn't really make a gun less accurate. It might decrease effective range and increase the ballistic curve (make the bullet appear to shoot less flat).

The problem with semi-autos is there is a lot of parts banging around every time you fire a round. These transmit vibrations through the gun and to the barrel. The gas system piston is the worst offender because by necessity the gas tube has to be directly attached near the end of the barrel (the Knights SR25 gets around that by doing away with the gas piston completely). With a bolt action, you can float the barrel and completely seperate it from anything but the receiver. Plus, by the time you cycle the action, the bullet has long left the barrel.

There are some very, very accurate semi-autos. Hoever, there are numerous problems that need to be overcome to do so, and many of these are directly opposed to "combat reliability". Not to say it can't be done, but it's much more tricky to make an uber accurate, uber reliable, uber tough semi-auto thyan it is to make one with a bolt action.

 

[USSR]

As previously stated, "The problem with semi-autos is there is a lot of parts banging around every time you fire a round.", which impacts both accuracy and reliability. While the bolt gun still dominates the long range game, the autoloaders are beginning to put in an appearance. They will work, but they require alot more effort to reach a bolt gun's level. At this time, they are better suited to a Designated Marksman role rather than a Sniper role.

Don

 

[Zak Smith]

Knights just won an Army SASS (semi auto sniper system) contract for an updated version of their SR25. But the bolt action rifles are also still being built and issued. Both have applications.

A semi-auto rifle will be heavier than a bolt action rifle of the same accuracy and effective range.

Semi-autos are basically ruled out as a conventional individual weapon once you get above 308-class cartridges. Many militaries issue sniper rifles in 338LM, for example.

The bolt action will be quieter than the semi-auto when a suppressor is used (with full power ammunition).

-z

 

[RK_INT]

In an effort to keep a potentially facinating thread going, what are the design features that make a highly accurate precision semi-auto like the PSG/MSG capable of boltgun accuracy? What does it take to keep "all these parts banging around" from being the ruin of good groups?

 

[Zak Smith]

AR pattern semi-autos can be very accurate, even in 308. Compared to other designs, this is because there is nothing load-bearing touching the barrel (ie, no gas piston), so the accuracy mainly depends on barrel quality assuming proper bolt fit.

Here are the main factors that affect accuracy in an AR15/10/SR25 series rifle:

1. free floated handguard
2. high quality barrel, including chamber dimensions (and a bolt that headspaces properly)
3. barrel extension to receiver fit, e.g. tight fit into receiver, and a true receiver face
4. good trigger & optics (ergonomics issue, not mechanical)

-z

 

[hillbilly]

It all depends on what you mean by the word "sniper."

If you by sniper you mean a highly-trained precision marksman skilled in land nav and fieldcraft whose mission is to gather intelligence, observe the enemy, and engage high-value targets at ranges starting around 600 yards and extending out to over 1000 yards, while operating in two-man teams, then bolt action is the way to go, with the spotter toting some sort of semi-auto.

That is the current configuration of the Marine Scout-Sniper. That there would be why the word "scout" is part of the job description, and even listed first.


However, if by "sniper" you mean the old Soviet doctrine, or the current US military "Designated Marksman" concept, then you are talking about a slightly-more trained marksman whose job it is to be part of a rifle platoon and to deliver accurate rifle fire on targets at slightly longer ranges than standard rifles and standard riflemen can reach, then a semi-auto that is accurized, but not actually "precision" is the way to go.

And yes, you can, if you spend a whole lot of money, get an M14 to the "precision" level of shooting.

No, shooting one "MOA" at 100 yards is not really precision. I have an accurzied Rem 700 in .308 that has shot more than one .25 MOA groups at 100 yards. I have hit steel silhouette targets up to 1000 yards away with regularity at a pair of courses at Badlands Tactical with this beauty.

And no, the accurized M14 just won't stand up to the rigors of actual field use and abuse, without constant tweaking and retouching by highly-trained armorers with the correct tools.

There's been talk that AR-10 type rifles can be tuned to real "precision" standards, but I don't know about lots of data showing that tuned AR-10s can maintain that level under realistic field use and abuse conditions.

But again, it all depends on what you really mean when you use the word "Sniper."

Do you mean the scout-sniper model? Do you mean the designated marksman model?

And yes, sometimes, such as in the recent book by the Marine sniper who took part in Operation Iraqi Freedom, scout-snipers get employed as designated marksmen, depending on the specific situation.

hillbilly

 

[itgoesboom]

In an effort to keep a potentially facinating thread going, what are the design features that make a highly accurate precision semi-auto like the PSG/MSG capable of boltgun accuracy? What does it take to keep "all these parts banging around" from being the ruin of good groups?

RK,

The HK rifles don't have the parts banging around because they are roller delayed blowback. There is no gas system at the front of the barrel, no pistol being driven back changing the harmonic.

These rifles cycle when there is enough pressure to disengage the rollers in the bolt head. This is a very accurate system.

The only real disadvantage of this system is that inconsistancies of the bolt slamming forward can have a negative impact on accuracy. I experienced this with my CETME (same basic design) when I tried to scope it. My scope mount was too tight, and was increasing pressure on the inside of the reciever on the bolt carrier when I manually cycled the action. When I sighted in at 25 yards, rounds 2-5 would be basically in one hole, but shot #1 would be about 4" low and 4" left consistantly.

The PSG-1 has a mechanism for minimizing this in it's bolt forward assist button on the right side of the reciever.

I.G.B.

 

[MrDig]

I almost decided not to post in this thread. My personal preferance is always a Bolt Rifle.
Someone stated an M70 was good enough for Sgt Hathcock so it's good enough for me. My guess is he asked for it specificaly and paid for it himself.
Well the reason it was good enough for him was that Sniper Rifles had to be ordered from the PX for most of the Soldiers in SE Asia. The DoD and the Pentagon et al did not deem an MOS for Snipers until we got tired of loosing Good Sniper training by ETS'ing Snipers after each war. It was not until Late in the Viet Nam era or after that Snipers were "Deemed" Retainable By the DoD and we began an effective and well thought out Scout Sniper MOS. This is well documented and is even the Topc of a series on the History Channel.

 

[madmike]

As previously stated, "The problem with semi-autos is there is a lot of parts banging around every time you fire a round.", which impacts both accuracy and reliability. While the bolt gun still dominates the long range game, the autoloaders are beginning to put in an appearance. They will work, but they require alot more effort to reach a bolt gun's level. At this time, they are better suited to a Designated Marksman role rather than a Sniper role.

Don

The US Army Sniper School and the SEALs disagree with you, and are using AR10 variants in large numbers. Most recent Perry matches have been won by AR variants. The Army still has M24s (Remington 700s), but both the SR25 and the Barrett are getting most of the money.

The theory that bolt is more accurate is now an historical one.

 

[Zak Smith]

The theory that bolt is more accurate is now an historical one.

This will be true when Benchrest shooters start to use autoloaders.

 

[ocabj]

The US Army Sniper School and the SEALs disagree with you, and are using AR10 variants in large numbers. Most recent Perry matches have been won by AR variants. The Army still has M24s (Remington 700s), but both the SR25 and the Barrett are getting most of the money.

The theory that bolt is more accurate is now an historical one.

What Perry matches are you referring to? If you're talking service rifle highpower, only M1, M14, and AR variants are allowed anyway. If you're talking match rifle highpower, the top rifles used are space guns that are based on an the AR lower but using a bolt action upper.

As far as increased use of AR10, SR25, M14/M21, and M82 rifles, it does not mean they are just as accurate as the bolt rifles. These auto loading rifles simply have specific applications that a bolt action rifle does not fit. The autoloaders allow for fast mulitple target engagements, which appear to be the common threat now in the current theatre of operations.

I think it would be possible to create a semi-auto rifle that is as accurate as the most accurate bolt guns, but the tolerances on such a rifle would be so tight that it wouldn't be feasible to use due to fouling, dirt, heat, and varying environmental conditions that would affect the action.

 

[madmike]

This will be true when Benchrest shooters start to use autoloaders.

Logically, the statement is false.

You assume no prejudice on their part. Since "everyone knows" bolts are better, few are trying the experiment.

Just as in publishing "Everyone knows" that giving away free books and e-files ruins sales. Except my sales of Freehold INCREASED when it became available for free.

That "Everyone does it" is not a valid argument of itself.

And benchrest shooters aren't snipers.

 

[USSR]

madmike,

I'd like to know what competition where both autoloaders and bolt guns are allowed, and only pure accuracy is the consideration, that autoloaders are consistently more accurate than the bolt guns?

Don

 

[Zak Smith]

madmike,

You are strictly correct, but given competitive & human nature, if semi-autos had a chance of an accuracy advantage, they'd be being used in the accuracy-only games.

I would be willing to bet $50 that with the same shooter and ammo appropriate to each rifle, an AI-AWP would outshoot the SR25 accuracy-wise. Both are currently-issued sniper platforms with 24" barrels.

But I agree with the point that modern autoloaders have "enough" accuracy for many sniper applications. It's pretty clear to anyone following the news.

-z

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In this issue, there are two questions; 1. what is the tactical employment, and 2. what are the accuracy requirements?

1. In considering tactical employment, a "sniper" can be a tactical sniper, deployed as part of a platoon (a designated marksman), a more advanced sniper used for interdiction, or a person employed in a Special Operations role to take out specific individuals.

The designated marksman is probably best served with the issue weapon, mounted with a proper sight.

The more advanced sniper may or may not need semi-auto capability depending on the situation.

For Special Ops, anything goes.

2. The accuracy requirements are contigent on the tactical mission -- but by and large, not so demanding as championship bench rest competition. In other words, we can give a little on accuracy to get better tactical performance.

Note also that while you can make a semi-auto very accurate, it takes a lot of maintenace to keep them that accurate. Our military competition shooters typically have three rifles assigned -- one to use, one in re-build, and one in reserve.

 

[DMK]

Most recent Perry matches have been won by AR variants. The Army still has M24s (Remington 700s), but both the SR25 and the Barrett are getting most of the money. The theory that bolt is more accurate is now an historical one.

Camp Perry contestants don't have to drag their rifles through the mud or live in an environment of fine sand before relying on their rifles to make a precision shot.

True the SR25 and others are getting some more use, especially in the wide open plains of Afganistan, but bolt actions are still the primary issue sniper weapons of the U.S. military and police forces.

 

[Ankeny]

Zak:

How many semi-autos do you see at the ITRC being used for the long range work? Those guys will take every accuracy advantage they can find including packing a 30 pound rail gun.

 

[Zak Smith]

Background: The ITRC is a team event consisting of one "carbine" shooter and one "rifle" shooter. Rifle targets go out to 700-800 yards and carbine targets to maybe 400. Typically the "rifle" is a bolt rifle in 308 up to the maximum caliber allowed (300WM?), and the "carbine" is usually an AR15.

I don't remember if I've seen any semi-autos used as the "rifle." It's possible that there have been one or two, but I can't recall. The vast majority are long & heavy bolt rifles.

In 2005, one of the Army teams was using an SR25 for the carbine, if I remember correctly. There was also one 6.5 Grendel AR15 as "carbine."

 

[Lonestar.45]

I'm no sniper expert. But, I would think that one of the above comments about the semi flinging brass is dead on as to why bolts are superior for snipers, at least in the military. You don't want flying brass glinting off the sun and giving away your position.

One other thought along those lines--I would think that the sound of the semi-auto action would also be just a little noiser than what a fully camoflaged sniper would want. Granted, the sound of the shot may muffle or cover it, but I'm not so sure.

For a strictly one shot one kill proposition, I think the bolt may have a slight edge over the semi in a combat situation. For police snipers and those not worried about concealment so much, then the semi might get the nod.

But what do I know?