Bolt rifle build quandary.

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kmw1954

kmw1954

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I have been struggling with this for quite some time and still facing the dilemma of the best way to proceed. Or just which direction makes the most sense.

I have been shooting a Savage Model 10 223 with a 22" barrel since late last spring and I really am enjoying it and have learned much especially from a good number of you all. I have been shooting this rifle in our local league and we are now about finished with just 2 more weeks remaining. Which brings me to the first part of this quandary.

After we finish up the season I have a brand new Savage Model 12 26" 223 Varmint barrel I want to install. I was going to put this on the Model 10 BUT I also now have a Savage model 11 in 243 that I purchased for doing a build with the intention of replacing the barrel with a 6mm BR Norma or a 6 ARC. Only now I am having second thoughts on this and thinking of putting that Model 12 barrel on the Model 11 receiver and to continue shooting the 223 cartridge. Then I can leave the Model 10 intact and original.

Part of my reasoning for the change of heart is that I already have everything needed to load the 223 and it seems to work fairly well with the distances I am shooting. Also it is economical to shoot and reload and would allow me much more actual trigger time to work on my skills.

So, What to do? Stay with the 223 Rem or move up to a 6mm for my target shooting? Rebarrel the model 10 or the model 11? I really have no interest in the 243. The Model 10 is a Blind Mag, Stagger feed and the Model 11 is a DBM Center feed with the Axis type mags.
 
kmw1954 said:
I have been struggling with this for quite some time and still facing the dilemma of the best way to proceed. Or just which direction makes the most sense.

I have been shooting a Savage Model 10 223 with a 22" barrel since late last spring and I really am enjoying it and have learned much especially from a good number of you all. I have been shooting this rifle in our local league and we are now about finished with just 2 more weeks remaining. Which brings me to the first part of this quandary.

After we finish up the season I have a brand new Savage Model 12 26" 223 Varmint barrel I want to install. I was going to put this on the Model 10 BUT I also now have a Savage model 11 in 243 that I purchased for doing a build with the intention of replacing the barrel with a 6mm BR Norma or a 6 ARC. Only now I am having second thoughts on this and thinking of putting that Model 12 barrel on the Model 11 receiver and to continue shooting the 223 cartridge. Then I can leave the Model 10 intact and original.

Part of my reasoning for the change of heart is that I already have everything needed to load the 223 and it seems to work fairly well with the distances I am shooting. Also it is economical to shoot and reload and would allow me much more actual trigger time to work on my skills.

So, What to do? Stay with the 223 Rem or move up to a 6mm for my target shooting? Rebarrel the model 10 or the model 11? I really have no interest in the 243. The Model 10 is a Blind Mag, Stagger feed and the Model 11 is a DBM Center feed with the Axis type mags.
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If you like your model 10 as is, id leave it alone and rebarrel the other.
Just remember cost wise it will be more expensive, as youll have to replace the bolt head and magazine.
 
I find far less competition in buying quality .223 components, than 6mm.
For a target rifle, to shoot the most, efficiently, it’s hard to beat a .223.
For the same ranges it may get boring with a more aerodynamic bullet,


I went through the same thinking awhile ago. A larger, more serious target cartridge. But for the ranges I usually get to shoot at, even stepping up one bullet class, to .243, is a waste. Not only in how proud manufacturers get in their bullets, but powder and brass, too.


But, the heart wants, what the heart desires. Sometimes we just need to do what we want, not what is most practical. It’s what keeps us above ground longer. Many firearms are “wasted” on me, I am still glad I have them.:)

Sorry for not really helping any.;)
 
Demi-human said:
I find far less competition in buying quality .223 components, than 6mm.
For a target rifle, to shoot the most, efficiently, it’s hard to beat a .223.
For the same ranges it may get boring with a more aerodynamic bullet,


I went through the same thinking awhile ago. A larger, more serious target cartridge. But for the ranges I usually get to shoot at, even stepping up one bullet class, to .243, is a waste. Not only in how proud manufacturers get in their bullets, but powder and brass, too.


But, the heart wants, what the heart desires. Sometimes we just need to do what we want, not what is most practical. It’s what keeps us above ground longer. Many firearms are “wasted” on me, I am still glad I have them.:)

Sorry for not really helping any.;)
Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat. My "big" tgt rifles; 6mm SLR and .300WM don't really get out all that much. My home range goes out to 760yds, but I find myself (lazy???) mostly shooting out to 550-600. 90% of the time I grab one of my .223s. I also find the .223 more challenging which makes for better practice. Staying on a plate with a 105 Berger starting at 3150 isn't all that hard out to 700 or so.

I've also noted the same about reloading supplies for .223. Last month I bought another 500 pack of Sierra 77 grn OTMs, and I've had no problems finding either 69grn OTMs or the 69 TMKs. That combined with a whopping 26 grain powder charge makes the .223 a winner these days.
 
kmw1954 said:
I have been shooting this rifle in our local league and we are now about finished with just 2 more weeks remaining. Which brings me to the first part of this quandary.
Click to expand...

Are you done with the league or just for the season and will continue when it starts again?

kmw1954 said:
So, What to do? Stay with the 223 Rem or move up to a 6mm for my target shooting? Rebarrel the model 10 or the model 11?
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What are your intentions? If it’s having fun, you could do anything that makes you happy. If you want to move up in standings, you have to ask yourself if .223 is competitive in the game being played. What are the people that consistently win using and would you like to be competitive with them?
 
Thanks folks,

Working backwards I will try to answer the questions.

jmorris, just finished for the season but will return for the next. Your point about being competitive with the rest is a very valid one. Most of the top shooters are using some form of the 6mm and I understand why. It speaks for itself. The Savage I am shooting is by no means a Competition Match rifle and I freely and openly admit that. The gun was purchased used and I have no previous history on it but it still shoots very well. Under MOA even to 300yds. Though I also believe it and I could do better with a better barrel with a faster twist and a heavier bullet.

These same guys shooting the 6mm Match guns are replacing barrels after just 1500/2k rounds. I have teased a couple of them that when they replace the next time give me the old barrel and I will surely place another 2k rounds down it and be pleased as punch.

I also openly admit that I still have a long way to go and a lot to learn. Would a better gun get me there quicker? I don't know. I still feel I would shoot the 223 more frequently just due to economies. I am also truly enjoying shooting the lil 223.

Now all the options I presented above are viable or I would not be considering them. Just trying to decide which would be most practical and enjoyable. I also understand that the Model 12 223 barrel is not a Match grade barrel but I do believe it to be an improvement over the the barrel I am shooting. I also was able to pick up that barrel for just $100.00 and it is a never shot take off which was replaced with a Match barrel.

At this point the only reason to move up to a 6mm would be to become more competitive with those I am shooting against. While it would be nice and enjoyable I do not yet feel the urgency to do so. Maybe that is just because I have not shot that level yet. Am I making sense?
 
If it were me, I would try the new barrel on the 11 and see how it shoots. But I would also try the 243 and see how it shoots. Guys have won with them. My guess is that you will end up getting a true match barrel in 6 MM for the model 12 and maybe one in .223 for the 11. The only real way to know is to shoot them.
 
Have already shot the 243 and not impressed. This one is only a 20" barrel and I don't really think I need 40+ gr. of whichever powder to shoot holes in paper. Another reason behind the 6mm BR Norma of the 6mm ARC. They use 30% less powder than the 243 or even the 6mm XC. or Creedmoor.

At the moment I am thinking of putting the Savage Varmint barrel on the model 11 and shooting it for a year and if not impressed swapping it for a Match 223 barrel or then moving to a 6mm. OR maybe I should just ditch the Model 12 barrel and move right to a 223 Match barrel?

One of the reasons I started with the Savage is because of the ease of changing barrels and the availability of prefits..
 
I'd put the new barrel on the M10 as that'll be a pretty simple swap.

See how that shoots. If the barrels a dog (not likely) you'll know to scrap the whole plan.

You might like it as-is with the new barrel. I'd do that first as Step#1, see how that works then figure Step#2 from there.
 
gotboostvr said:
I'd put the new barrel on the M10 as that'll be a pretty simple swap.
See how that shoots. If the barrels a dog (not likely) you'll know to scrap the whole plan.
You might like it as-is with the new barrel. I'd do that first as Step#1, see how that works then figure Step#2 from there.
Click to expand...

That was my original plan for the Varmint barrel until I actually shot the Model 11 and felt how much nicer it was than the Model 10. 1st plan was to barrel the 10 with the Model 12 barrel and then barrel the Model 11 in a 6mm flavor. Only now I am thinking of setting aside the 6mm until all this world chaos settles down. This might be an even worse time for a change than a year ago would have been.

See here again just too many choices, none bad, none great.
 
If'n it was me, I think I would stick with the M10. I say that because you like how it shoots now and you like shooting it. When it gets to the point that you feel you can shoot better than the rifle is capable of shooting, then you would be well served to make a change to help you move up to that next level of competition. JMHO.

Don't dismiss the M12, either. I had a M12BVSS in .243 Win. that would shoot 5-round bug holes at 100 yards with light bullets. A faster twist than the factory 1:10 might have made it competitive at longer ranges, though. Like the fool I seem to be, I sold it because shooting tiny groups with it was boring. I've regretted doing that ever since... :(
 
Rebarrel your m11 with the m12 barrel and headspace it to your m10 bolt. It's already set up for 223 no extra parts to buy until you decide if you like how the m12 barrel works. Then either buy parts for the m11 bolt or replace with a 6mm cartridge. The 2 bolts should be the same because savage uses gge same short action reciever for all its short action rifles.
 
Varminterror said:
What do you find nicer about shooting the 11 than the 10?
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First right off is that the bolt just felt smoother in both directions and second the trigger, even though they both are equipped with the Accutrigger the one on the 11 feels smoother and softer maybe more predictable. The bottom bolt release on the 11 is a little more awkward and I also personally like the blind stagger feed of the 10 more.

Currently the 10 has a Boyds Spike Camp stock and the 11 has a Boyds At-One Thumbhole which is really not more than a Spike Camp with accessories. So the stocks don't really play into this feel.
 
@kmw1954 - thanks for clarifying. I ask, only because the 10 and 11 action and trigger are the same, just different trim packages, effectively. So differentiating the actions is really about the individual actions themselves, not a model differentiation.

If you have use for two 223’s, then dropping the 12 barrel into the 11 and buying a new bolt head and mag box might make sense.

But I also know how much performance can be had with short case .473” bolt face cartridges at short range, so I would be very tempted to recommend a 6BR barrel on one of your rifles and let you save that 12 barrel for your 10 for next season or the next when your current 223 barrel is shot out.
 
I knew the reason you were asking somehow. So it was easy to explain and agree wholeheartedly that they are basically the same parts.

This deciding what to do is like walking thru the woods and coming to multiple forks and not sure which one to pick even though the all pretty much lead to the same place. All I know for certain is that I don't want to stay where I am at. is there such a thing as Too many options?

To answer you question, no I do not need two 223 rifles. Though I may need to get over this notion of leaving the Model 10 alone as stock and just throw the Varmint barrel on it and be done as was my original thought.
 
Eh, personally, I would remind myself to not overthink it. Barrels are like tires, relatively easy to change, and they don’t last forever. So even if you left your 10 alone for now, it’ll need a new barrel within 3,000 rounds anyway - enter that 12 barrel. If you put the 12 barrel on it now, it’ll need replaced within 3000-5000 rounds… Same deal if you put it on the 11 now… there’s also no force which makes you stick with a barrel until it’s toast if you put it on one of these actions.

But I will also caution you - it’s VERY common for competitors to focus too much on “change.” We feel like we need to change something or tweak something, and sometimes, we really don’t need to do anything to our gear. If you sit on that barrel for 6 more days, 6 more weeks, or 6 more months, what changes? What penalty will you have for not deciding to change TODAY? So I wouldn’t sweat it. Even if you did put it on one rifle, you can swap it to the other in about an hour’s worth of work, then swap it back in another hour. I know a couple of guys who will change barrels at the range occasionally, so they can do load development in both barrels at the same time… don’t make it more complicated than it really is - you can always change back any time you want, or change later if you don’t want to change right now…
 
Thanks Varminterror, reality up close! I mostly hate change. I am pretty sure the 10 needs a barrel change already. If for no other reason than I would then have a history to go by.
 
A clearer vision on this build. Still not certain it is the best decision but in these times it just seems to make sense.

I would love to step up in caliber and in time I most certainly will. As was pointed out prefit barrels are relatively inexpensive. Also they are quick and simple to change. So with that it makes changes, in worn out parts or just calibers, less stressful and available.

For now I have decided to leave the Model 10 223 as-is and proceed with the changes on the Model 11, which is what it was purchased for. The end difference being in caliber. Originally I was going to rebarrel it into a 6mm BR but that was before the bottom started to fall out of the world. Before the war, before inflation took off. Previously finding components to reload and waiting on build parts was hard enough and now it will be getting harder again. Just finding a steady supply of primers and powders was a task. Now I see Bullets for the 6mm are very scarce and good powder like Varget near impossible to find.

So as I was ordering some parts and things from Gun Shack I was also able to purchase a Savage 223 bolt head and would have also ordered a 6ARC bolt head but they were out of stock. The 223 bolt head will be going into the Model 11 along with the Model 12 Varmint barrel because I already have all the components and tools to reload the 223 and presently about 16# of powder that works well with the 223.
With this my thinking is that I shoot this combination during the coming spring and summer then I can also compare this against the Model 10 rifle and did the new barrel make a huge difference. Which if it does and I continue to enjoy this I then may purchase a Prefit match barrel also in 223 with a much faster twist to try and shoot heavier bullets.

Then if things in the world improve I may move to either or both, 6mm BR or 6mm ARC. Just because I have interest in the ARC.

Well thanks for letting me think out loud.
 
Not to be contrary, but I buy a lot of Varget and 6mm bullets… I’ve been able to buy more bullets and powder in the last 3-4 months than in the 18mos before that. Varget, H4350, and Retumbo pounders made it a whole day and a half at the Cabela’s here this week before being scooped up. I’ve even bought a few K of primers - BR4’s no less.

But it does sound like a valid enough plan, which you have.
 
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