Bonnie & Clyde (moved from Legal)

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SmeeAgain

SmeeAgain

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Years ago I visited the Bonnie & Clyde ambush site. Since then I've been wondering about the legality of it.
I'm not saying they weren't guilty, or there was another option to stop them, just questioning if it was legal or not.
At the time of the ambush, they were merely suspects. (Innocent until proven guilty in court)
They were NOT served with a warrant, nor was there any attempt to arrest them.
Again, it wouldn't have ended well had that been tried. But still...
The guy apparently running the show was a Texas Ranger... who wasn't in Texas! Louisiana is out of his legal jurisdiction.
So from a legal standpoint, was this a cold blooded murder by law enforcement?
Did the family have a case for criminal prosecution against the officers or a "wrongful death" in civil court?
It would be interesting to play this out in a mock trial.
 
When I was a kid in Oklahoma one of our family friends,,,
Was a real life old timey (1910-1930) western sheriff.

He often talked about "mad dog" warrants,,,
Kind of like the "wanted dead or alive" rewards in the 1800's.

A judge had to issue the warrant and have sufficient justification to do so,,,
But according to his stories they weren't all that uncommon back then.

Aarond

.
 
As the man said: "The past is a different country". I am a retired 3 plus decade LEO, and I can assure you that the preceeding is as accurate a statement about 'back then' as can be made. Suits at law were far, far less frequent, standards were not nearly as defined and refined as todays point of view as to what is and is not allowable. Training, if there was any, was mostly OJT........and if you were lucky you wound up with an old vet that knew realistic survival skills. Remember back in those days there WAS no backup, no communications other than word of mouth mostly, and if you were in the hot seat you either got yourself out or...............!

All that aside, B&C were KNOWN killers, armed to the teeth and had proven many times their prime option was to shoot their way out...........now tell me, would YOU walk up to that car and tell 'em to just give up......would you!
 
Agreed. After the Vietnam War I couldn't buy a job, even if I had a pocketful of cash. My hair was still to short!
I ended up finding a job as a deputy sheriff. Training was... "on the job". After about six months I was able to attend "In Service Training" classes which didn't even come close to real life. Life would be awesome if everything went according to the book.
With your experience I'm sure you could add a few volumes to that.
In the end, it turned out OK, looking bsck, I can proudly say "I did it right."
Strange that I never had any problems with the public, even "the bad guys". We each had our roles to play. Conflict came from a few of our own, within the department. "Super Cops" as I referred to them where the politically correct term would be "bad apples".
Outright lies on reports to make a bust stick etc. That sort of BS degrades the entire system. Of course you knew that too.
We had one gem who had nine shootings in six months! All justified of course. On the ninth he was quietly asked to resign.
Ironic that I worked the exact same area, same shift for most of my career. I only drew my weapon twice, off duty both times, and never had to fire it. The vast majority of us have the same bragging rights.
Now I can't say I always did things 100% "by the book", real life simply doesn't work that way. But... I did everything "within the spirit of the law" so I could sleep & go on with life with no regrets.
Again, after 30 plus years, this isn't anything new to you so I'll shut up.
Except for this little tidbit... Growing up I was the last kid anyone ever expected to become a peace officer. I took my self appointed role as class clown & #1 prankster very seriously. I just never got caught.
Once my role changed, I had no choice but to grow up & do my best.
 
Obviously time has changed. I would be interested in knowing what modern LEO's would be allowed to do. Bonnie and Clyde had shot their way out of arrests and I am aware of two motorcycle policemen who were killed without warning investigating what a car full of people were doing out in the middle of no where.

From what I read, Bonnie and Clyde, and whomever was with them, Clyde would drive long distances, say 600 miles, after a robbery .

I went to the Texas Ranger Musuem and took photos of a faux Bonnie and Clyde car. Later I searched the Texas Digital Newspaper Program

https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/TDNP/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/TDNP/titles/

for the news the day after Bonnie and Clyde were killed. And I searched for “Bonnie and Clyde”. I found a number of reported sighting of the duo, typically they would be by their car, in a rural isolated area, and someone would drive by, or walk by. If that person notified the Police that suspicious people were in the area, inevitably, they were gone by the time authorities came to investigate.

I do think Bonnie and Clyde were reduced to an awful lifestyle. Based on the newspapers of the period, they were “celebrities” and would have been recognized if they stayed in one place too long. Just being seen would have been enough to pack up and move hundreds of miles away. So they must have spent a lot of time in isolated rural areas, sleeping in their car, maybe cooking and making coffee for breakfast over a camp fire. That would get old.

Given that both of them were a sure thing for the electric chair, they proved they were not the surrendering type.
 
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Life as a cop story... Way back in the old west, we usually had two deputies per car. Often one was a trainee.
I had the same partner for several years. We were a good team.
My partner was a Native American and for the most part he fit the stereotype as being absolutely fearless. That was until one day we got a call for an active shooter in a warehouse.
We rolled up and could hear shots being fired! My partner gets on the car PA system & while screaming like a little girl says... " This is the sheriff's dept... let me see your hands! Let me see your hands!"
I didn't notice that he kept the mic button pressed the entire time but the entire county could hear our exchange from inside the car!
I'm laughing hysterically at his paniced reaction... until both of the suspect's hands emerge from behind a steel door. He empties both of his guns into our car! Then retreats back inside.
I say to my partner... "Nice goin'... gimme that!" As I ripped the mic from his hand.
I get back on the PA, still with somewhat of a chuckle in my voice over how my partner was reacting... as he's hiding under the passenger sest... & say... "This is the sheriff's dept again, we clearly saw your hands so that's enough."
Apparently laughter is contagious even in horrific circumstances... so the suspect starts laughing too. Whatever brought him to the point where he felt the need to scare the hell out of everyone was done... his mood completely changed.
He gave himself up without further incident!
Even more amazing, nobody was hurt! Our patrol car, my partner's underwear & reputation didn't fare as well but overall a good outcome.
We teased him relentlessly for months after!
 
Slamfire said:
Obviously time has changed. I would be interested in knowing what modern LEO's would be allowed to do. Bonnie and Clyde had shot their way out of arrests and I am aware of two motorcycle policemen who were killed without warning investigating what a car full of people were doing out in the middle of no where.

From what I read, Bonnie and Clyde, and whomever was with them, Clyde would drive long distances, say 600 miles, after a robbery .

I went to the Texas Ranger Musuem and took photos of a faux Bonnie and Clyde car. Later I searched the Texas Digital Newspaper Program

https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/TDNP/

https://texashistory.unt.edu/explore/collections/TDNP/titles/

for the news the day after Bonnie and Clyde were killed. And I searched for “Bonnie and Clyde”. I found a number of reported sighting of the duo, typically they would be by their car, in a rural isolated area, and someone would drive by, or walk by. If that person notified the Police that suspicious people were in the area, inevitably, they were gone by the time authorities came to investigate.

I do think Bonnie and Clyde were reduced to an awful lifestyle. Based on the newspapers of the period, they were “celebrities” and would have been recognized if they stayed in one place too long. Just being seen would have been enough to pack up and move hundreds of miles away. So they must have spent a lot of time in isolated rural areas, sleeping in their car, maybe cooking and making coffee for breakfast over a camp fire. That would get old.

Given that both of them were a sure thing for the electric chair, they proved they were not the surrendering type.
Click to expand...
I believe you are 100% spot on. Nothing to be envious about there. Daily life must have been a living hell... but, they brought that on themselves.
The actual car is still on display in a casino outside of Las Vegas, NV. It's an absolute mess!
Someone asked about my mock trial idea asking "then or now"? I suspect the outcomes would differ drastically from then to now. & I think we can agree on which result would be for which time.
 
It was an ambush. Frank Hamer had no authority in Louisiana but there were LE from Louisiana. One fo the "Deputy's actually initiated the shooting and everyone opened up. Clyde, from what I read. was killed in the first fusillade and Bonnie was helpless with the only guns out of reach in the back seat. Franke Hamer may have killed Bonnie with a burst from a Colt Monitor through the rear window and also ran to the side of the slowly rolling vehicle and gave her another burst through the passenger side window. It was murder no doubt, although Hamer claims he called out "Give it up Clyde!". I doubt it. The posse intended to kill them both and they did.
 
Kleanbore said:
Keep in mind that the fleeing felon law in effect at the time did not reflect the ruling in Garner v Tennessee.
Click to expand...
That doesn't apply as technically they were "suspects" in the long list of crimes.
Obviously there isn't much doubt if any of their guilt, but... it was never proven in court... so technically they were innocent & murdered.
And not just "no" a resounding "Oh hell no!" I'd be screaming from the rooftops if someone were to ask if "I'd be willing to walk up to Clyde & serve a warrant."
I'm not a coward, but not stupid either.
 
I'm curious; when did the 'Wanted, Dead or Alive' thing die out? Or was it just a Western movie trope?

Because it sure sounds like Bonnie and Clyde were 'wanted, dead or alive', doesn't it?

Larry
 
I don't know. Excellent question! It certainly doesn't go with written law.
 
Kleanbore said:
In the days of Blackstone, the fleeing felon rule at common law applied to persons fleeing from having committed a felony, and not yet arrested, tried, or convicted.
Click to expand...
While some 17th century English law is often comparable to U.S. law, it does NOT override The U.S. Constitution, it's Amendments, our Bill Of Rights etc.
 
SmeeAgain said:
While some 17th century English law is often comparable to U.S. law, it does NOT override The U.S. Constitution, it's Amendments, our Bill Of Rights etc.
Click to expand...
But--all states but one adopted the English Common Law as it existed at the time that each state came into being.

Regarding the discussion at hand, Garner v Tennessee changed things, under the Fourth Amendment as incorporated, in the 1980s.
 
SmeeAgain said:
verride The U.S. Constitution, it's Amendments,
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity are you asserting that the Confrontation Clause in the 6th Amendment is absolute?

The problem with this specific case would be that the LEO involved would have (probably) held that they were acting in (preemptive) self-defense.

Blackstone, and Common Law are very much cornerstones of American jurisprudence and law enforcement, both then and now.
 
SmeeAgain said:
.
The guy apparently running the show was a Texas Ranger... who wasn't in Texas! Louisiana is out of his legal jurisdiction.
So from a legal standpoint, was this a cold blooded murder by law enforcement?
Click to expand...

There were multiple warrants for both of them, issued by the United States Commissioner in Dallas.

Frank Hamer had a commission from the United States to "apprehend" them. And he did...with a BAR.
 
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Given the exact same situation today how would the scenario play out. Known killers desperate to escape, ruthless, quick and good with guns, on the run in a stolen car. Police get the intel of where they are and set up a sting. What does that sting look like? I don’t think it looks much different. Spike strips would be used in attempt to stop the car. Car wouldn’t stop. Next attempt they know that they are jammed up so they try to run over the cop manning the spike strips. Next attempt the cops light them up like Hamer did as they approach and claim that they were trying to run down an officer. Only other way it goes is that they do somehow manage to disable the vehicle and start the shootout right there. With the ambush they at least got to pick a spot where they would be firing in a safe direction.
 
Clyde had no intentions of being taken alive. It was a pretty simple choice of how to deal with the issue at hand.
 
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