Boxed in by pedestrian(s) while in a vehicle

[benEzra]

There was a case back in the 1990's in which a woman was driving out of her neighborhood and a man walked out into the road in front of her. She stopped to avoid hitting him, and a second man walked up to her driver's side door, opened it (it was unlocked), pulled her from the car, and took off. I think she was tangled in the seatbelt and was killed as the carjacker made his escape.

Obviously, situational awareness and locking your doors were the major lessons of this case, but the pedestrian intentionally blocking the car raises another question. What do you do if you are intentionally blocked by pedestrians, but who are otherwise not presenting a lethal threat?

I anticipate a chorus of "lay on the horn, floor it, and he'll jump out of the way," and I agree that would be the indicated response if someone WERE obviously a lethal threat. But if you floor it, and kill the panhandler who just wanted to wash your windows and throw a guilt trip on you for $20, then you will find yourself guilty of vehicular homicide.

So, what do you do if you are trying to pull/back out of a parking space and someone very deliberately walks into your way and stops, but does nothing else? Yes, you scan 360 like crazy to see if he has an accomplice, but if you don't see anyone, then what? Lay on the horn and drive away slowly enough not to hurt him, but NOT stopping even if he lets the car touch him? Under what circumstances does a forcible exit become assault with a deadly weapon? and under what circumstances does the pedestrian(s) blocking you itself become an assault?

I'm sure there has to be case law on this. Any thoughts?

 

[Pilgrim]

Obviously, situational awareness and locking your doors were the major lessons of this case, but the pedestrian intentionally blocking the car raises another question. What do you do if you are intentionally blocked by pedestrians, but who are otherwise not presenting a lethal threat?

I anticipate a chorus of "lay on the horn, floor it, and he'll jump out of the way," and I agree that would be the indicated response if someone WERE obviously a lethal threat. But if you floor it, and kill the panhandler who just wanted to wash your windows and throw a guilt trip on you for $20, then you will find yourself guilty of vehicular homicide.

The driver's actions will be judged by a standard of what is reasonable when faced what looks like a carjacking or kidnapping situation.

If backing up quickly is an option, it looks better than running someone down.

One single act by a stranger by itself may not appear threatening, but a combination of different acts may indeed be considered threatening.

If the doors are prudently locked, it gives the driver more time to assess the situation.

If the stranger at the door has a weapon or a tool that can be used to smash the window to gain entry, then by all means lay on the horn and leave as quickly as possible.

The best thing to do is think about these scenarios beforehand so that one has a plan.

Pilgrim

 

[The Deer Hunter]

Dude if someone is trying to stab me/car jack me and there is someone in front of me you better beleive I'm running right over him. I would try by all means to escape without harming anyone but what it comes down to is me or him.

 

[mljdeckard]

In Utah, you are allowed to use deadly force to prevent carjacking. However, people just standing around your car preventing you from moving it is not in and of itself a direct threat to you. I would be on the phone immediately, in gear, but anticipating action on the part of the offenders, since if they were going to do anything besides cause mischief, they wouldn't be stupid enough to wait for the police to show up. They will either leave or try to get into your car. Once they start acting to break in or immobilize the car, the gloves are off. All of them are either trying to harm you or HELPING those who are trying to harm you. Whether I start driving, or start shooting, or both depends on how many there are, if I have a clear path to escape, which car I'm driving, (my chevy truck vs my VW Golf) and if I am in a situation where I'm stuck in a crowd, like the L.A. riots or something similar.

But if someone is trying to take my care, they aren't going to pause to let me get my kids out before they take off. They ARE going to be fleeing from the police, and likely driving recklessly and endangering others. I am reasonable to prevent this by any means necessary.

 

[benEzra]

Dude if someone is trying to stab me/car jack me and there is someone in front of me you better beleive I'm running right over him. I

And you would be legally and morally justified, no question.

What I am wondering is, what if there is someone in front of you blocking your way, but no overt suggestion of violent intent yet.

 

[Cosmoline]

If it's part of a team effort to attack you, floor it and run them down. I'm not sure why this is even a question.

What I am wondering is, what if there is someone in front of you blocking your way, but no overt suggestion of violent intent yet.

You mean like a drunk or crazy guy? No, you can't run them over just for blocking you. But if it's a gang trying to kill you and take your stuff, you can defend yourself. The rules are the same as anywhere else--imminent unlawful deadly threat.

 

[geologist]

I worked for a couple of years in Papua New Guinea where bandits use roadblocks to stop their victims. The Chief of Police in PNG said that if you ran into a roadblock and they are not wearing police or army uniforms, run them down.

One girl I worked with did just that on a would be carjacker, just gunned her car at him and the cockroach managed to get out of the way.

Better to run them over in reverse as you won't disable your car by damaging your radiator. If you have to use the front of your car, try to hit them with the passenger side front corner.

 

[contenderman]

Keep your doors locked, if any windows are down close them. Stay in the car, if the person makes any threatening gestures and/or some "friends" of the individual come up. Lay on the horn. Also use cell phone if you have one. If you have an OnStar equipped vehicle hit the emergency button, as well.

At the first crack of glass ... floor the sucker and peel out of there, horn blaring.

Of course if your a CCW then you have other options and hopefully have some training in employing those options.

 

[Picard]

I'd slam on the gas as soon as the other guy tried pulling me out of the seat. This probably wouldn't happen to me since I usually close the doors when I get into the car.

 

[jeepmor]

Of course if your a CCW then you have other options and hopefully have some training in employing those options

I can mash the gas from the driver's seat much faster than I can draw my CCW, much less messy in court considering today's legal system.

 

[benEzra]

If it's part of a team effort to attack you, floor it and run them down. I'm not sure why this is even a question.

If someone (or multiple people) are blocking you but no attack is apparent, there must be some level of action between (1) sitting stationary doing nothing and (2) running people over.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I wonder if my Jeep would go over the person, or if they would roll up on the hood.

 

[david_the_greek]

hah this is easy. Neither of my front doors work anymore... The carjacker would definitely need the jaws off life to get to the front or try to hop in the locked back seat. I suppose he could shoot me through the window but when he tries to get in he'll be in for an unpleasant surprise. And yes, I know this is also dangerous for me, I just haven't had time to run to the dealer to fix the doors ; )

 

[rainbowbob]

Lay on the horn and drive away slowly enough not to hurt him, but NOT stopping even if he lets the car touch him...

I think you answered your own question (assuming there is no weapon visible or accomplice attacking the flank).

 

[yhtomit]

hah this is easy. Neither of my front doors work anymore... The carjacker would definitely need the jaws off life to get to the front or try to hop in the locked back seat. I suppose he could shoot me through the window but when he tries to get in he'll be in for an unpleasant surprise. And yes, I know this is also dangerous for me, I just haven't had time to run to the dealer to fix the doors ; )

David, how do you get into your car?

More general thread reaction: I'd sure hate to fire a gun in a car, sans ear protection. At a range with sond-deadening material, plugs and muffs it's way louder than I need. Outdoor range, slightly better, still way louder than I need. Though maybe cochlear implants are really coming along

timothy

 

[yhtomit]

benEzra:

There was a case back in the 1990's in which a woman was driving out of her neighborhood and a man walked out into the road in front of her. She stopped to avoid hitting him, and a second man walked up to her driver's side door, opened it (it was unlocked), pulled her from the car, and took off. I think she was tangled in the seatbelt and was killed as the carjacker made his escape.

That sounds like the Pam Basu case, though I have not read a detailed description of the way the carjackers actually got into her car. That was the first big carjacking case in the U.S. (at least, it's the one which made the term popular), and it happened in the county I was living at the time. One day a friend of mine and I skipped high school and saw some of the trial in the local courthouse -- grisly, disheartening, depressing.

timothy

 

[hankdatank1362]

If the horn don't move them, then they're either deaf (a real possibility) or up to no good. Either way, a little 3mph bumper love tap won't kill anyone, and it will still get your point across.

 

[david_the_greek]

yhtomit, right now I crawl though the back. I was crawling through the front passenger door up till a week ago... then that broke. Its a new car as well, a lease for that matter!!!! Very annoying and very dangerous for me if I get in an accident. It's led me to primarily riding my motorcycle or bicycle to where I need to go. I can attest to getting groceries on a road bike being a pain in the back... and other places.

On a side note, I've been hit by a car while commuting on my bicycle. I was rear ended on an empty street by an SUV. I really hope the people saying they'd run someone over REALLY think hard about messing someone up, potentially for life, potentially killing them. And speed doesn't really matter if you get hit by a car. Sure, someone could get a bump and be fine, someone else might get their knee destroyed and need an artificial replacement. If thats the case you're F'd

 

[Byron Quick]

There's a neighborhood in Louisville, Georgia called Wren's Quarters. Named after the contractor who built the slum.

Residents once had the habit of walking out in the traffic lanes of the place. That stopped one day suddenly. Butch Wrens, the son of the contractor, didn't stop and honk the horn at the guy walking in the middle of the lane. He kept driving and ran over the guy. I don't know what the outcome was, I never heard of him being charged. All I know is that suddenly everyone was walking on the shoulder of the roads.

I'd attempt pushing the guy out of the way as gently as possible until my vehicle was touched by an accomplice. Then I'd floor it.

 

[mwells]

hah this is easy. Neither of my front doors work anymore... The carjacker would definitely need the jaws off life to get to the front or try to hop in the locked back seat. I suppose he could shoot me through the window but when he tries to get in he'll be in for an unpleasant surprise. And yes, I know this is also dangerous for me, I just haven't had time to run to the dealer to fix the doors ; )

A friend in college had a Gremlin that had the same problem as you. We had to crawl in through the hatch to get in!

 

[bukijin]

An ambush needs to stop the vehicle to be successful so the vehicle has to be kept moving (slowly and under control would be better than panicked and fast). A single person would not be able to stop the car without a weapon. The really dangerous scenario is being trapped inside a hostile crowd in which case all bets are off.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

What I am wondering is, what if there is someone in front of you blocking your way, but no overt suggestion of violent intent yet.

I had that happen to me before. I simply hit the gas with my foot on the brake. He jumped out of the way like a bat out of hell. Guess he thought I was crazier than him.

 

[Webbj0219]

Id say if it was one guy standing in front of you and another coming from the side to gain access to your vehicle. I would step on the gas and try to drive around the guy in front of my car. I wouldnt feel at fault if he jumped in front of a moving car, thats his own stupidity. Id just tell them in court that i tried to drive around him, but he dove in front of me as i was going past him, musta wanted to end it all pretty badly.

Oh yeah I have been clipped once on a bicycle as well. Wasnt bad at all. the mirror of a ford musting clipped my handlebar as I was riding. He was only traveling about 5-10 mph faster than me, so it was pretty light and just pushed my handle bars to the side a bit. if he had been coming the other way or there was a greater speed difference between us might have been more serious