Mugging Scenario (with picture)

[itgoesboom]

Sorry, ain't gonna happen that way.

Again, the Tueller Drill tells you you're dead if you try to go for your weapon with the guy only 5 feet from you. If you and he begin your attack at the same moment, you'll have a knife in you before you can clear leather.

I understand the Tueller Drill, and I know that if someone is actually attacking me, or has decided to actually attack me with a knife/blunt object, I need *atleast* 21 feet to draw and fire and win.

But I think in this situation you might be able to pull it off at a closer range.

Here is my thinking (and it might just be flawed).

The Tueller Drill is used when someone is already actively attacking. They are in the process, have made the decision to stab you.

That isn't the case here. They have displayed a weapon, but have now given up the action phase in favor or reaction, waiting to see what you do. They expect you to be a sheep, reach for your wallet and hand it over.

Instead, you reach for your pistol and draw. Now you are acting and they are reacting, and have to react in response to what you did. That means they first have to identify what you did, decide on a reaction, and do that reaction. Made more difficult for them since they can't see past the stroller to see what you are grabbing.

Ofcourse, their perception of you as a sheep might work in your favor. They aren't expecting a pistol to come out, and so it takes longer to process information that you aren't expecting.

Is my thinking flawed? Possibly. Is that how I would react? Probably not.

I am just tossing ideas out.

I.G.B.

 

[itgoesboom]

The Tueller Drill is based on an assailant armed with a knife who has decided to attack a man with a holstered pistol. In the presented scenario, the robbers have made a demand for money and have not yet decided to attack. They are expecting compliance. Anything other than compliance will put them in the position of deciding whether to make another demand for money or fulfill their threat of attack.

While not the best of situations, I imagine a 'victim' well trained and good at getting his concealed weapon out quickly will be the one doing the acting and the robbers will be forced to decide to continue their threat or run. The best time to draw will be while the robbers are still talking.

Pilgrim

D'OH, you beat me to it! I took too long writing.

I.G.B.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The Tueller Drill is based on an assailant armed with a knife who has decided to attack a man with a holstered pistol. In the presented scenario, the robbers have made a demand for money and have not yet decided to attack. They are expecting compliance. Anything other than compliance will put them in the position of deciding whether to make another demand for money or fulfill their threat of attack.

Well you said it yourself, anything other than compliance will put them in the position of deciding what to do next. You might not like what they decide. The knife is drawn and the attacker is ready. The Tueller drill is used to show that you have a smaller chance than you think to draw. In this case, if the attacker decides to move, there is no way you can draw your weapon and fire before you are stabbed.

This kind of situation is EXACTLY what the Tueller drill emphasizes. If you make a move and the BG decides he doesnt like your move, you won't finish your draw. Try it sometime in a force on force class. It is shocking and frightening. We're not as "John Wayne" as we'd like to think, especially from concealment. "I'll draw my gun, shoot the bad guys, and the spectators will all buy me drinks" is the worst move in this already bad situation.

I disagree that the time to be a hero is with knife and club weilding assailants near your wife and child. You need to do all you can do take this sutiation down a notch. If you're wrong, too slow, miss, etc your wife and child may die. This isn't a superhero movie. It's real life.

 

[ka50]

I understand the Tueller Drill, and I know that if someone is actually attacking me, or has decided to actually attack me with a knife/blunt object, I need *atleast* 21 feet to draw and fire and win.

Hmm.. something tells me 9mm parabellum is going to win over a blade even at point blank range. Ever heard of draw and fire from a hip? Before assiliant realizes that you're holding a gun in your hand and not wallet he'll have at least 2 bullets in him. Provided you know what you're doing of course.

 

[itgoesboom]

Hmm.. something tells me 9mm parabellum is going to win over a blade even at point blank range. Ever heard of draw and fire from a hip? Before assiliant realizes that you're holding a gun in your hand and not wallet he'll have at least 2 bullets in him. Provided you know what you're doing of course.

If he is already attacking you or has made up his mind to attack you before you start your draw, and he is within about 21 feet or so, he wins, you lose.

He can cover that 21' to you before you can clear leather and get him. That's what the Tueller drill shows.

As I said above, if the BG hasn't decided to attack, and is just at this point posturing and threatening, than you will make up some time, as he now you are acting and he has to react.

Any experienced trainers here tell us if that is how it actually works, or am I completely off-base?

I.G.B.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I see what you are saying, in that maybe you can get the jump on a guy and make the first move, I'm just not sure you have the time and distance.

Of course it's going to depend very much on the type of BG you're dealing with here.

In this given scenario, you have 2 guys jumping you in daylight, in front of witnesses. I expect their willingness to use force is pretty high, and I expect their level of confidence and experience to be high as well.

That's a pretty bold move, most muggers etc are looking for passive victims, in a quiet place. This is a broad daylight crowded place attack, these guys aren't amateurs.

 

[itgoesboom]

I see what you are saying, in that maybe you can get the jump on a guy and make the first move, I'm just not sure you have the time and distance.

Yeah, I know. That's why I posting just thoughts, and asking if my thinking is flawed. I haven't tried anything like that, yet, so I don't know if the persons reaction would be quick enough or not.

I know when I used to do martial arts, that when you were expecting an attack, it was fairly easy to mount an effective defense and counter-attack.

But when the instructor didn't let you know he was going to attack, and just did, often times the defense you could mount wasn't all that effective, and mearly limited the damage.

So, I am also thinking depending on your level of awareness, the results might change. If you are already in yellow when you first see that pipe and knife, maybe you will keep your head, but if you weren't paying attention, and didn't even notice the two guys until you saw the weapons, you will probably be thrown off balance mentally.

It's an intresting situation, one that is really complicated by adding in that baby stroller.

I.G.B.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Very interesting thread! I just noticed it and read the whole darn thing!

Consider Bernie Goetz. He was in a similar situation facing 4 guys, not 2 but without the wife and kid. He hid the draw and started blasting.

Just a comment on Bernie as relates to this thread. Even though he was acquitted of murder (and of 'vigilantism') he nearly went bankrupt funding his own trial and ended up spending 8 months of his 1 year sentence in jail for carrying an unlicensed weapon.

It's a choice you have to make based upon your feeling about the situation at hand, but don't expect that after you've shot a bad guy that nothing about your life is going to change!

I guess I'm not sure what my own point is because I do carry every day, and I WILL defend my life if I ever need to (hope not). But it's worth considering the consequences during times like this when you can think about it. The aftermath of defending yourself can be pretty scary.

Regards,
ChickenHawk

 

[engineer151515]

Carry a "mugger money" clip - a few dollar bills in a gold money clip - in your front left pocket.

Turn body slightly to the right.

Reach in left front pocket for the money clip.

Toss clip/money to feet of knife perp while reaching for CCW on hip (sometimes rear pocket) with right hand.

Just about the time their eyes follow the money clip to the ground, draw.

By the time they look up ... double tap to knife boy.


If perp two hasn't turned to run, he gets the next two.




This is a drill. This is only a drill.

 

[ibex]

What Engineer151515 said is also more or less what I'd do. I'm not tactical enough to carry extra mugger-money, so I'd toss them the real wallet or money clip, probably from a strong side pocket. While their eyes are hopefully following the money, I'd draw, probably from 04:00 position, strong side. After clearing the holster, assuming I survived this far, I'd take a split second to assess if they are already disengaging or doing a deer-in-headlights at the sight of my sidearm. If neither, I'd open fire.

 

[HankB]

No guarantee that "all" the bad guys want is your money, and that they'll be satisfied with it. Bad guys + deadly weapons = imminent threat of grave bodily harm.

Hand off stroller to wife and step to your right, while engaging bad guys in conversation: "OK, nobody has to get hurt, here, you can take the money . . . " This makes the BGs think you're complying, and takes the bystander(s) out of the direct line of fire. (Disadvantage is that it puts the motorist to your back - hopefully, he's not a get-away driver for the bad guys.)

If you "pocket carry" the BGs will think you're getting your wallet. Once your hand is actually on the gun in your pocket, you ought to be able to draw and fire in half a second or so.

Elapsed time to both guys being ventilated, once you've grabbed your gun, maybe one second. With the BGs not expecting resistance, this should work.

No pocket carry? Take your wallet and throw it on the sidewalk . . . when they bend down to pick it up, draw and fire.

Key thing is to engage them in conversation so they THINK you're complying. That ought to be enough distraction for you to draw and fire.

And none of this John Wayne stuff about drawing and telling them to "drop it" or some such - they're too close. This is a bad situation, no good choices, no guarantees, but I think distraction followed by several BANGs is the "least bad" choice.

 

[johnnymenudo]

Where do you guys come up with the time to do this stuff?

One thing - scared people don't tell the perps "OK - I am just going to reach for my wallet in my back pocket - and then do it slowly". They freak out and fumble for it is quickly as they can to try to end the encounter.

JM

 

[1911 guy]

My version of compliance.

Ask my wife to take stroller. This means her stepping in front of stroller, me stepping to the right, giving me more of the wall as a backstop. My CCW is on my right hip toward the rear where most keep their wallet. My wife was just threatened, now I'm gonna skull f*&% somebody. Actually, two somebodies.

 

[000Buck]

I like the idea of trying to step from behind the stroller and swinging 90 degrees to the right, then both of their attentions are on you and maybe the wife can backup with the stroller while you faking going for your wallet and have time to shoot both of them. This scenario definitely shows front pocket carry is not a bad idea. In the perfect outcome, both muggers are shot dead and their bodies hung in the town square.

 

[crofrog]

Here are a few thought's I've had.

Frist on the tuller drill, in training with a semi-auto airsoft G19 and a training knife. With one of my friends. With out movement off the line of attack he was able to stab me as I started shooting him everytime from 21 feet you are both going to the hospital(given the above senario that might be ok). At 15 feet my gun was just clearing the holster as he started stabbing me and he could normally trap my gun in the holster.

At 21 feet with if I moved agressivly off the line of attack and kept moving to stay off the line of attack I was able to draw and land solid hit's on him and he wasn't normally able to stab me at all.

This also worked at 10 feet as well although if you ???? it up you might get stabbed.

Also action beat's reaction every single time. I'd defaintly make them react to me. Using whatever is quickest to start getting inside their OODA loop. I belive people say "speed, surprise and violence of action" they are execpting corporation, if you given that to them intially they are probally getting even less exeptant of a counter-attack. I'd say if it has to goto guns, I'd start circling around to my right engauging who ever has the knife frist then immeditally following up on the one with the pipe. This should be pre-planned so that the wife know's once ???? goes loud to grab the stroller and start back pedalling like mad.

Also, something to consider is just giving them the money, getting a real good look watching where they head off to etc etc. By myself I'm much more inclined to start fighting with these 2, even out numbered. With 2 others under my charge it get's a little more interesting, and I'd be disinclined to start shooting unless I had too. I also carry next to know cash, and having my wallet stolen would just be a headache calling my bank and well that's it.

If you haven't tried to play out senario's like this you really should. I know a lot of people knock airsoft a lot, and for the most part they are 100% correct. You can find however gas opreated pistols that are identical in operation and size / feel to the real thing. This means you can use all your regular carry gear. Training knife's are easy to come by, and magic markers or a butter knife can work fairly well.

With a few minutes your wife and a stroller and 2 other friends you could run through this senario for a few times using training gear, and see how you can do against a pretty close to worst case (esp if they are execpting a counter attack)

Chris

 

[pcf]

Why do you assume that if you throw the wallet on the ground, BG with the pipe with won't smack you on the head for being "rude" and not handing the wallet over.

If you can move, the BGs can move. If their feet were glued to the ground, you would have walked around them. If you can step to the right, so can they, right between you and your family. Why would assume that they'll stand there and you let shoot them. Your not going to stand there and let them kill you.

Pocket pistols, any pistol, holds a finite number of rounds. Shoot till the felon falls, right? It could easily take every round you have in your pistol to stop the BG with the knife. You may have an empty gun and he may still be in the fight. At that point you have a shorter blunt object than the guy with the pipe and a duller one than the guy with the knife.

They demanded your wallet, you both have a rudimentary understanding of each others language. While your not going to engage them in a fulfilling conversation you could tell them that there are lots of witness and running away would increase their chances of staying out of prison. Or plead for your families safety.

Most strollers so not become equipped with all terrain wheels. I can stop just about any stroller from turning with my toe.

 

[crofrog]

Why do you assume that if you throw the wallet on the ground, BG with the pipe with won't smack you on the head for being "rude" and not handing the wallet over.

I guess that's a possibilty. The fact is that as you do that you should already be making your counter attack.

If you can move, the BGs can move. If their feet were glued to the ground, you would have walked around them. If you can step to the right, so can they, right between you and your family. Why would assume that they'll stand there and you let shoot them. Your not going to stand there and let them kill you.

Wow I don't think any one said the bad guys would just stand there. I fully expect everyone in the situtation to be moving. The reason to move is it get's you off their immediate line of attack. It is making them react to you, that's step 1 of winning the fight. Once they are reacting to you they are behind the curve and you are controlling more of the events.

Pocket pistols, any pistol, holds a finite number of rounds. Shoot till the felon falls, right? It could easily take every round you have in your pistol to stop the BG with the knife. You may have an empty gun and he may still be in the fight. At that point you have a shorter blunt object than the guy with the pipe and a duller one than the guy with the knife.

Well you have a knife too right, and have decent H2H skills? That being said you are right you only have so many bullets. Just because the gun is empty doesn't mean you are done fighting. Getting stabbed is ok in this case, I mean it's going to suck and ????, but the top priority in this would be my wife extracting the baby and herself from the danger.

Also this would be a reason to train shooting on the move against moving targets. Because only hit's count and doing that will help you make your hits.

They demanded your wallet, you both have a rudimentary understanding of each others language. While your not going to engage them in a fulfilling conversation you could tell them that there are lots of witness and running away would increase their chances of staying out of prison. Or plead for your families safety.

Yes, those are 2 additional responses both of which could be intergrated into the entire situtation. Once again allowing you to modify their behavior to suit your needs.

Most strollers so not become equipped with all terrain wheels. I can stop just about any stroller from turning with my toe.

Why true they don't have all terrain wheels and can be quiet difficult to push over must obstacles. It is easy enough to pull them over most anything. Which is why I said she should start back pedaling. Not turn around and run.

 

[Gordon Fink]

What? No riot gun stowed in the BUV? Why is my wife carrying a shopping bag before we enter the store?

Seriously, given the description, this looks like a situation where the perpetrators would run at the slightest show of force. Are they really going to take the time to fight us and then search our dead/disabled bodies for valuables in front of so many cell-phone-wielding witnesses?

Of course, I live in California, so I would just wet my pants and hand over my wallet, hoping they wouldn’t rape my wife and/or abduct my daughter.

~G. Fink