Weapon transition during an attack. What would you do?

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uspJ

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Since knives and their use have been topics for discussion recently I have a scenario and something to ask that I've been thinking about lately.

Here is the scenario. It's kind of long but bare with me.

Its 3:00 p.m. your exiting your local grocery store on the way back to your vehicle. You make a conscious effort to be aware as you make your way, you are scanning the surrounding area, you have made sure to carry the single bag of groceries in your weak hand to keep your dominant hand free should you have to use it. The parking lot is crowded with cars and you were unable to park away from other vehicles, you see no one that sets off any alarms or gives you a bad feeling. You get to your vehicle and reach into your pocket for your keys with your free hand and... WHAM! You've just been struck in the face by a bg that was on the blind side of the vehicle that was parked beside yours. He is right on top of you continuing to strike you with a small semi-auto as he demands your keys, wallet and phone . You fall to one knee between your car and another. Your dominant hand is still in your pocket and the kneeling position is making it difficult to remove it. The strikes you have taken have opened up a gash on your forehead and your vision is becoming blurred by your blood. You try again out of instinct to go for your gun but the successive blows and adrenaline are making it difficult to free yourself. With your weak hand you grab your knife and jam it into the thigh of the bg. He stops striking you as the pain and surprise hits him. With his attack temporarily stopped you are able to get to your feet and free your dominant hand. You are less than two feet away from each other and you have three options at this point.

Option 1- Continue to attack with the knife untill the threat is stopped.

Option 2- Attempt to push the attacker away so you can grab your gun and make contact shots if need be.

Option 3- Try to escape the injured bg and yell for help as you draw and distance yourself in case he decides to continue his attack.

So what do you do and why do you do it? What pros and cons do you see in each of the choices?
 
Get space and shoot. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
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Are you saying just enough space to clear leather and point shoot/contact shots or enough distance to align your sights?
 
Continue to fight with your knife. You are literally on top of him and you have your knife in hand. Close with him so he can't shoot and stab him until he is no longer a threat. Your knife won't jam or run out of ammo. If you go for your gun, you give him plenty of time to shoot you down. As to bringing a knife to a gunfight, in this scenario you are already at knife fighting distance so I think a knife already in hand beats going for a holstered gun. An aggressive, determined, and unrelenting counter attack with your knife is your best option here IMO. You've gained the initiative in unexpectedly stabbing him in the thigh, take advantage of it and get after him without remorse.

give him the wallet and keys. he's won this one
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Hardworker, do you think the attacker will be in a forgiving mood considering you just stabbed him in the thigh? I wouldn't count on it.
 
give him the wallet and keys. he's won this one
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Unless giving him the wallet and keys is a ruse of some sort, that involves TRUSTING somebody ALREADY engaged in a deadly force attack against me to not hurt me MORE.

When it comes to armed robbers, I don't do trust.
  1. I wouldn't have a knife, since in Ohio, it's a Concealed HANDGUN License.
  2. I'd slap his testicles as hard as I could in an upward swinging motion.
  3. Gaining some initiative and space, I'd get far enough away to draw, and shoot until he was no longer a threat.
 
You get to your vehicle and reach into your pocket for your keys with your free hand and...
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Too many constraints, poor tactics among them.

My keys are in my hand while walking, not my pocket. How else am I supposed to have my car unlocked when I get there, so I don't fumble around, as you would have me do?

My knife is on my strong side, with my gun. In your scenario, I'm punching or kicking for his groin, unless/until I can draw my gun and shoot.


Most of this applies to me too.
  1. [strike]I wouldn't have a knife, since in Ohio, it's a Concealed HANDGUN License.[/strike]
    (I carry a knife, but not as a weapon)
  2. I'd slap his testicles as hard as I could in an upward swinging motion.
  3. Gaining some initiative and space, I'd get far enough away to draw, and shoot until he was no longer a threat.
Click to expand...
 
In "my gunfight" following your scenario, I would follow through with successive knife attacks while getting to my feet and using my dominant hand to draw and fire my pistol until the threat stops.
 
He is right on top of you continuing to strike you with a small semi-auto ...opened up a gash on your forehead and your vision is becoming blurred by your blood.
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Well if the guy has any size or strength to him, pounding on my head with a chunk of steel will likely take me out of the fight and make the whole scenario pointless. In your scenario, my vision won't be blurred, it will be useless for the few seconds that the attack lasts. I'd be better served in that scenario to keep cutting on the guy and stay close (attempting to keep his muzzle pointed elsewhere) until I feel him drop.

I approach my car with my keys in my weak hand, strong hand free with knife and gun on the same side. So if I had time to draw my knife, I should have drew my gun.
 
At two feet and already successful at stabbing him in the thigh and you back on your feet...

You have to get control of and dominate the gun equation. For practical purposes, he has a deployed gun but you don't (yet).

Press home and fight only his gun hand. Throw a full body check into him, get a lock on his gun hand, wrist, or forearm while making every effort to SLICE his damn gun hand off...right down to to the bone. Attempt to sever every tendon in his forearm or wrist.

When the gun drops to the pavement, break contact, open up some space, and attempt to sidekick one of his kneecaps off.

Do whatever needs to be done next.
 
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He may not be aware that you just stabbed or slashed him – only that you struck him – and he may not react as you expected.
 
Exchange 'keys' for 'gun' and you see what can be a major problem with pocket carry, IMO.

I'd continue to press the attack with the blade, since I'm already attacking.

Shawn is correct that he may not initially know he has been stabbed, heck he might not even know he has been shot even if you do access your pistol.
 
Are you saying just enough space to clear leather and point shoot/contact shots or enough distance to align your sights?
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Enough to shoot, period. It's ludicrous to engage in a knife fight with a man armed with a gun.
 
give him the wallet and keys. he's won this one
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The attacker obviously has the high ground already, and I might agree if the OP hadn't specified "repeated" strikes with a small auto. That action in and of itself really has little or no bearing on the outcome of the crime after the first hit if all the BG wanted was my money and keys.

3. I'm not sure that running from an attacker with a gun, who has already assaulted me, is the best course of action. IMHO there's no indication that he's not going to kill me anyway, there's something else at work here. Personally I do not see option 3 as a viable option if I want to survive the encounter.

2. I'd have to be pretty confident that I could clear the holster and put one COM before he could. He's already attacked me. He has a gun. His is already out. I would try get to my gun, but I wouldn't want to give the BG too much room.

1. I'd stab him with a #2 pencil if I had to. I sort of agree with Shawn D, the knife might not have an instantaneous effect on the BG.
 
Shawn is correct that he may not initially know he has been stabbed
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Yep. Adrenaline does strange things, much less adrenaline plus some drugs. I got hit with a 22 round and it shattered a bone. I didn't know it until someone pointed out that I was bleeding. I've gotten a nasty cut while riding 4 wheelers (several stitches needed) and never realized it until some time later when some dirt with aa bit of salt in my gear a few miles down the road.

give him the wallet and keys. he's won this one
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If he's beating me about the head, he obviously doesn't care if I live.

Like I said, I'd try to keep his muzzle pointed away and keep up with the knife. When he collapses and drops the object that he's using to threaten my life, I'll relax and back off.
 
Need more info for to suggest a response.

How close is cover? Where is it located relative to my location and orientation (i.e. behind me, etc.)? What type of knife do I have (i.e. blade length)? How big is the guy relative to me, does he look/act like a fighter? Does he appear well conditioned? Do I know how to use a knife effectively? How confident am I in my ability to get hits despite impaired vision? What are the lighting conditions? Are other people around? Where are they?

Lots of variables here to think about that all make a difference.

The best "one size fits all" answer I can give with information provided is move off the line of attack as best as possible (i.e. laterally or preferably behind attacker) and continue my own attack with either a knife or handgun as allowed by circumstances and my own abilities.
 
I have to agree with Hank, door #1. I might also jam my keys in his eyes, since they're handy. This might possibly ruin his aim, if not severely limiting his driving options.

IMO it might take too long to pull a gun at this point.
 
Thanks for the responses so far. I have some thoughts on each of the options I listed as I don't really see a wrong answer just different pros and cons to each.

Option 1- Continue to attack with the knife untill the threat is stopped.
Pros
-A knife allready drawn and in contact distance will be faster than drawing your gun.
-A knife won't jam, or run dry.
-The knife will be easier to cause damage while in grappling distance and can be used to assist in disarming the bg.

Cons
-Has to be used up close. The bg could regain advantage if size and strength are superior.
-May take a while for the damage done to take effect. You may be done for before bg bleeds out.
-The knife could be dropped or fumbled once slippery with blood.

Option 2- Attempt to push the attacker away so you can grab your gun and make contact shots if need be.

Pros
-Bg now knows he's in a gunfight and may retreat if not stopped allready.
-COM or CNS shots will be done from contact distance.

Cons
-Still up close, gun could be dropped in the struggle.
-Same pros for you apply to bg at this distance and his gun is allready in hand.

Option 3- Try to escape the injured bg and yell for help as you draw and distance yourself in case he decides to continue his attack.

Pros
-Plentiful cover and concealment as the parking lot is full of cars. Leaves you with the option to flee/hide or take defensive position.
-Drawing attention may cause bg to flee before authorities/security arrive.

Cons
-Have to disengage allready armed bg. Potential for being shot while retreating.
 
If his attack has stopped and you are back on your feet, then you've just reset his OODA loop big time.

I'm no expert, but my opinion is a question: WWCCD (what would Col Cooper do?)

> Alertness
> Decisiveness
> Aggressiveness
> Speed
> Coolness
> Ruthlessness
> Surprise

The first principle is already off the table, but 2-7 are still in play, so long a you don't hand the advantage back on a platter by dinking around. I'd do my level best to immobilize his gun arm and ruin his day with the tool at hand. I'd hope to be quick about it, I'd press the attack, and I'd hope for the best. The principles are more important than the hardware, IMHO.

YMMV.
 
167 thanks for the links. I'll be sure to look over them.

Sideshooter
Good points.
 
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