Boxing in a streetfight - broken hands?

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dave3006

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I have spent years in BJJ. At the place I currently train, MMA is all the rage. The standup work is boxing/muy thai. All the work is done with gloves. As a matter of fact, many of the guys travel to Mexico and fight for money ($500) on the weekends.

The thing that bothers me, is what happens when you don't have the gloves?

Mr. Murphy seems to show up for all my fights. Fragile knuckles hitting hard moving heads seems to be a recipie for a broken fist. In my opinion, the addition of gloves for all these MMA fights increases the importance of closed fist striking way beyond it's viability in the street.

Any comments?

P.S. I am not saying BJJ is perfect. BJJ has it's limitations too. Multiple opponents can kick your head in while you grapple. Weapons are an issue ect...
 
We had an interesting discussion about this on another (martial art) forum.

It's notable that old boxing manuals that pre-date gloves show the fighters' hands being held palm-up (think of the Notre Dame logo). This is similar to the way many strikes in xingyi and other kung fu styles are performed. This change in form helps to protect the small hand bones from breaking by creating a better hand/wrist/forearm alignment. According to some, punching with the palms turned down is something that didn't evolve in boxing until gloves were added.

I train in bagua primarily, which uses a lot of palm strikes. The basic rule (and this applies to a lot of styles) is soft target=hard weapon, hard target=soft weapon. For example, head shots should be made with a palm strike, whereas kidney and solarplexus shots should be made with a fist (for greater penetration).

Anyway, sorry if this was a bit off topic, but I think the info is somewhat relevent :)
 
Actually, I think your replies are directly on topic. The hard/soft comments make perfect sense. In a real fight with moving opponent, it seems very difficult to be sure your hard knuckles will meet a soft target. People duck, bob, and weave.

I am coming to the opinion that the gloves people use for training and MMA can actually cause them to develop techniques that stand a high chance of failure in the street. The human hand can not reliably stand up to the power generated by a boxers punch without the protection of the glove.

You may knock the guy out. You may break your hand on his skull.
 
Opinions on this vary. I've hit people with a closed fist ungloved before. It is a gamble whether you feel comfortable with it or not. I've never landed a palm strike on someone but I have landed a bunch of punches, in each case I was never hurt. The two main issues are:

1) Knuckles to use: Use your three outside knuckles to punch. Many styles teach that you should use your two largest, this is a great way to break your hand. You want the bottom of your fist to be perfectly straight with the bottom of your wrist. The aligns the three outside knuckles so you can hit without breaking your wrist. The advantage of punching like this is that it avoids the "boxer's fracture". Which is usually when someone breaks their hand near their pinky knuckle. Why did it break? You guessed it, they punched using the two inside knucks, missed, and scored a glancing blow with their smallest knuckle. Since the wrist wasn't aligned, bones break. Now if you use the three outside knuckles and you score a glancing blow with your index knuck, you still might fracture that part but the liklihood is far less since it is a larger and thus stronger bone.

2) Horizontal vs. Vertical: For most people out there, it is far easier to achieve issue #1 with a vertical fist. I personally don't think there is a difference between the two other than that fact.





How do the guys that go down the Mexico punch? Have they broken anything yet?
 
All the guys that fight in Mexico use the NHB gloves. They pad your knuckles and your fingers are loose for grappling.

I broke my hand in karate about 10 years ago. I did a reverse punch and hit the guy in the chin. They taught us to use the first two knuckles. However, he moved and I hit with the ring finger knuckle. My hand collapsed and was worthless instantly. The doctor that set it called it a "boxers break". I would have been in big trouble in a real fight. I was a black belt at the time and it is not like I had not trained to strike properly.

Soon after this, I started BJJ for various other reasons. In the back of my mind, I have always questioned the wisdom of hitting hard objects with my "less than hard" fists.
 
I see a lot of hand/wrist/forearm damage. Usually they are intoxicated so it does not hurt at the time despite the lack of technique. When I talk to me about what happens I see a lot of Western boxing techniques that, to me at least, look as dangerous to the hiter as well as the hitee.:uhoh:
 
What movie had a bareknuckle fight where one guy'd drop his head just as the other guy threw a punch? Two or three jabs landing on the top of his bald head, and the other guy's fists were useless.

Boxer's fracture. Yikes. My hands hurt just thinking about it. Gimme a good hammerhand anytime.
 
Dave- So you're a prime example of someone who has broken their hand with one of those silly inside two knuckle punches. I feel comfortable with a closed fist, it has worked for me in the past. If you have careful and clean technique, you should be relatively safe.
 
Murphy tends to show up in fights. Breaking your hand in a fight usually boils down to one of two things: either you made a poor targeting choice (e.g. the upper forehead) or you missed what you were aiming for - either of which can result in breakages using a closed fist regardless of your technique.
 
Many many years ago, I broke my thumb hiting an individual either due to a miss-hit with a closed fist, or not knowing just what I was doing, or both.

I was not and am not a trained martial artist, and I also have been beat black and blue.

Have recently read about open palm strikes and their effectiveness.

At first glance, they may not seem to be as "cool" as a boxing hit, but they make sense to me.
 
FWIW, I have been taught that if you slowly curl your fingers and make a fist, over maybe 15 or 20 seconds, the resulting fist is much stronger (and less likely to break) than if you just squeeze and punch. I don't know if it's true, but the instructor seemed to know what he was talking about. In any event, it's probably a rare situation when you get 20 seconds lead time.
 
What movie had a bareknuckle fight where one guy'd drop his head just as the other guy threw a punch? Two or three jabs landing on the top of his bald head, and the other guy's fists were useless.
Click to expand...

I remember that scene too but I also cannot remember the movie.,

brad cook
 
What movie had a bareknuckle fight where one guy'd drop his head just as the other guy threw a punch? Two or three jabs landing on the top of his bald head, and the other guy's fists were useless.
Click to expand...

The movie was Gladiator (the one with Cuba Gooding Jr, not Russell Crowe)
 
I've seen that move in plenty of movies. Never seen the Gladiator you are talking about though.
 
Palm strikes are an under-used alternative to punching.

You can strike effectively with the heel of the palm against targets like the jaw (dislocate/potential knockout), nose (potentially blinding opponent with pain/tears/blood), or even low targets like the liver, spleen, kidneys, or groin by turning the hands outwards (or down in the case of groin shots). Palm strikes are useful for "boxing" an opponent's ears (if you've never had that happen, suffice to say it sucks).

Besides reducing the risk of a hand-break, another benefit to hitting with the palm is the ability to strike and grab. Having the hand open allows you to hit and then curl the fingers to trap hair, clothing, or even skin. This can be critical either to gain control of a weapon, deliver follow up strikes, or to utilize the opponent as a shield or an obstruction in a multiple-attacker scenario. Important stuff if you want to displace an attacker to open a potential exit route.

I could go on about the heart of the palm, listening energy, chi merridians and such, but it gets a bit esoteric and (to be honest) goofy if you're not into CMA.
 
We were taught to not punch someone with our fist in the face. We were taught that because the likelihood of our hands being broken are pretty high so we hit with a palm strike. We do strike with a closed fist to soft areas like the solar plexus or the lower ribs.

I punch with my middle, ring and pinkie knuckles. I was taught that there is more contact surface there and those 3 knucks are aligned so the strike disperses more pain.
 
Having the hand open allows you to hit and then curl the fingers to trap hair, clothing, or even skin.
Click to expand...
But if you mis-hit, you can dislocate your pinkie badly -- I've even heard of them being torn clean off. :uhoh: I keep my fingers folded over like a flat fist, and pull the hand back to strike with the palm.
 
If I am mounted or have someone in my guard, their body is stationary and a strike with a closed fist is safe to a "soft" target.

In stand up fighting, you may start a punch towards a "soft" target with your closed fist. However, by the time the punch arrives, you could be hitting a "hard" target due to the dynamic nature of a stand up fight. In stand up fighting with movement, I think I will assume the target is "hard" and plan accordingly.
 
But if you mis-hit, you can dislocate your pinkie badly -- I've even heard of them being torn clean off.
Click to expand...

I suppose anything could happen. In theory you could catch a finger on a deflecting limb or article of clothing and have it pulled in a bad direction. Fighting hurts! ;)

Seriously though, that is a concern and there are of course differing schools of thought on palm technique. Even in my style (bagua) there are instructors who teach what's referred to as an "ox-tongue" palm (fingers held together, thumb tucked into palm, strikes are dilivered with the ridge of the hand), while others teach what is usually known as the "dragon palm" (fingers gently spread, thumb extended outward, the palm sort of stretched and cupped). I've never met a practitioner who uses either hand-shape exclusively, but everyone's got their favorite. There are reasons for both techniques, and I don't think anyone will ever be able to demonstrate how one is clearly superior to the other.

For myself, I prefer the dragon palm, mostly because I can throw fast, heavy strikes with it and transition quickly to a trapping/grappling game. The (comparatively) relaxed hand posture lends to better circulation and less fatigue, and (as mentioned previously) the fingers are always in position to grab cloth or hair, or apply a leverage. Just my .02
 
One of the biggest things that I see is that everyone thinks that when fighting, they have to score a headshot.

Anytime you throw a strike to the head, you take a chance of breaking your hand.

Never underestimate the effectiveness of striking to the body.

My brother was a bouncer in nightclubs in NYC for 5 years. He broke his hand one night during a club-clearing brawl. The biggest thing that saved him was a technique he learned from his Korean Hapkido master.
Peoples normal reaction to breaking their hand/knuckle is to open their hand. If you can(and this is a big if, he was unable to) keep your hand closed. It is still somewhat useful at that point. If you opened your hand, the next best thing was(and what he did) was to curl your hand(not unlike a snake strike fist) and strike with your wrist.

When I trained, we would often run scenarios where your hand was broken and you had to fight with the rist of one of your hands. It's not as difficult as you might believe.

And a closing thought. Never forget to use your knees and elbows.
 
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Wrist strikes are awesome, but I don't normally advise people to use them unless they're trained to do so. A poorly executed wrist strike could do a lot more harm than good.

That said, done correctly the wrists are one of the body's better clubs. Forearm strikes can be nasty too...a forearm to the jaw-line or neck can turn into a choke/throw very quickly.
 
Never underestimate the effectiveness of striking to the body.
Click to expand...

Can I get an Amen?!

Amen preacher!

Like other good things, body shots are the answer. ;)

I've broken the knuckles on my left hand once and the knuckles on my right hand twice. Everytime I make a fist you can hear them crack. If the room is quiet, you can hear it from up to a few feet away. The ones on the right are noticably flatter than the ones on the left. While they weren't exactly shattered or anything, the breaking always left that hand pretty much useless (for the short term, anyway). I agree with everyone that's said stay away from hard targets (e.g., the head) with a closed fist. The head is too mobile a taget anyway, IMO, for me to take a shot at with anything but a stick.

The biggest problem with most styles, as I see it, is that they prime you to be entirely too tempted to do things that are way too flashy or even outright dangerous when off the floor. Just like you said, what if you'd broken your hand in a real fight? Closed fist strikes to the head aren't uncommon in MA, but like you I'd *never* heard anybody say to not do it IRL. <dr evil> I'm the student! Need the info!</dr evil> :banghead: Sparring/tournament fighting is one thing, but the movie theater parking lot is another. I wanna go home, dammit, not get points.
 
I got in a mess of fights when I was young and dumb. Had basic boxing skills but no other martial arts training.

I have a large 'wingspan' - (wear 38 inch sleeves) and used a jab to the face to keep them distracted and off balance until I could get the power right cross in to finish the fight.

The M.O. was jab - jab - jab - with the left - then POW with the right when I had an opening - most fights didn't last long.

Quick jabs normally don't have the power to fracture your hand - especially if you train with a heavy bag - the bones and knuckels build up and get thicker and the tendons and muscels around the bones get stronger and provide support. The right hand - more powerful blows with the weight of my body behind it - were generally aimed at the body - or if the guy was off balance and open for a head strike - the blow would meet insufficient resistance to cause a break on the hand.

Anyway - one only one occaision (out of many, many street fights and bar room brawls) - I got the classic boxers fracture - of my middle finger - the third metacarpal snapped (the long bone between your wrist and your first knuckle) - the tendons pulled the finger bone back and my middle finger was instantly shorter than my pinky.

With the adrenalin flowing - I didn't even realize it had happened at the time - the guy was a wrestler and was coming in for a take down attempt at the same time my jab was going out - I caught him full on the forehead - the hand bone snapped - and he went down like a sack of potatoes - (then his friends kicked the snot out of me but that's another story ;) )

The doc had to drill and pin it to keep it in place while it healed - I still have ugly ass knuckels and can feel it ache when the weather changes - 15 years later....
 
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