Boxing in a streetfight - broken hands?
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gryphon
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Very true. I have had the good fortune of learning fighting skills since I was 10 years old(I'm 30 now). I don't practice as often as I would like, but I still make sure that I train my wrists to some degree. Enough so that I can still throw a full force strike at a heavy bag and not really feel anything.
This can never be stressed enough, train often and train with those who know what they are doing.
R127
Member
This will be wasted on a great majority of people, but here it is. What is it about seed falling on fertile ground? Anyway,
You won't break a knuckle in a streetfight unless you don't know how to use them. The majority of boxers, people in the world, and yes, even the popular tactical and martial arts heroes, probably don't know how to use their fists right. Anyone who thinks the gloves are to protect the hands is unaquainted with history and practical application. And no, the thought of contacting the top of your head or even your elbow does not send shivers up my spine.
You won't break a knuckle in a streetfight unless you don't know how to use them. The majority of boxers, people in the world, and yes, even the popular tactical and martial arts heroes, probably don't know how to use their fists right. Anyone who thinks the gloves are to protect the hands is unaquainted with history and practical application. And no, the thought of contacting the top of your head or even your elbow does not send shivers up my spine.
Does that include knowing when *not* to use them?
That's like saying you won't get killed in a gunfight if you know how to shoot. Sometimes, it just happens. Some things have a greater propensity to cause "it" to happen than others, and those things are generally best avoided when one can't dictate the rules and environment.
Nobody knows how to use their fists right? Except maybe you a few others, of course. Certainly you'd be willing to impart this knowledge to others for a nominal fee?
Here is the one thing that I am 100% confident that I know about fighting:
Things go wrong. Even trained people screw up and make mistakes because we are imperfect human beings.
Training can minimize the Murphy factor. But, it can not eliminate it. Therefore, it is important to pick techniques, strategies, and tactics that plan for the inevitability of human imperfection.
If your technique or plan requires perfection, you have the wrong plan to depend on.
Things go wrong. Even trained people screw up and make mistakes because we are imperfect human beings.
Training can minimize the Murphy factor. But, it can not eliminate it. Therefore, it is important to pick techniques, strategies, and tactics that plan for the inevitability of human imperfection.
If your technique or plan requires perfection, you have the wrong plan to depend on.
R127
Member
Nominal fee? Nah, I give this info away free of charge! Here is my three step program to not breaking your knuckles.
First off, choose your weapon. Not all knuckles are created equally, use the large knuckles at the base of your fingers, not the knuckles of the middle joints of your fingers. Further, I personally reccomend focusing the blow on the knuckles of the middle and index finger. Dempsey can say what he wants, whoever would like to can agree with him, I don't.
Second, don't just throw your punch out there without any consideration for method. When you're in gaurd let your fist relax, not open, just relax. When you throw your punch clench the muscles of the fist and forearm, this will reinforce the wrist, it will also add speed and penetrating power. Don't lock out your elbow. I prefer a vertical fist, but horizontal works too.
Third, hone your weapon. Buy a child-sized heavy bag, not one of those 70lbs affairs. Hang your bag so it can swing freely a good distance in any direction. Set it in motion and practice slipping the bag as it approaches you and striking the bag as it swings away from you. Do this without gloves. If you want to do this hardcore like the old dads did, after such a session dip your hands in strong brine, weak tannic acid, walnut juice or similar. This will build bone density and toughen the skin, as well as other soft tissues. After you've been practicing a while you can try crushing large potatoes for fun. If you're hygenic about it you could even boil and eat the resulting product... I wouldn't.
For what it's worth, I've been in a great many streetfights in my day. I have never in all that time and all those encounters ever broken a knuckle, sprained a wrist, or anything of the sort.
Tomorrow's exciting event, dispelling the myth of loss of fine motor skills being an inherent reality of fighting... bwahahaha!!! Till then, fair thee well and keep in mind that just because something is tactical don't make it true.
First off, choose your weapon. Not all knuckles are created equally, use the large knuckles at the base of your fingers, not the knuckles of the middle joints of your fingers. Further, I personally reccomend focusing the blow on the knuckles of the middle and index finger. Dempsey can say what he wants, whoever would like to can agree with him, I don't.
Second, don't just throw your punch out there without any consideration for method. When you're in gaurd let your fist relax, not open, just relax. When you throw your punch clench the muscles of the fist and forearm, this will reinforce the wrist, it will also add speed and penetrating power. Don't lock out your elbow. I prefer a vertical fist, but horizontal works too.
Third, hone your weapon. Buy a child-sized heavy bag, not one of those 70lbs affairs. Hang your bag so it can swing freely a good distance in any direction. Set it in motion and practice slipping the bag as it approaches you and striking the bag as it swings away from you. Do this without gloves. If you want to do this hardcore like the old dads did, after such a session dip your hands in strong brine, weak tannic acid, walnut juice or similar. This will build bone density and toughen the skin, as well as other soft tissues. After you've been practicing a while you can try crushing large potatoes for fun. If you're hygenic about it you could even boil and eat the resulting product... I wouldn't.
For what it's worth, I've been in a great many streetfights in my day. I have never in all that time and all those encounters ever broken a knuckle, sprained a wrist, or anything of the sort.
Tomorrow's exciting event, dispelling the myth of loss of fine motor skills being an inherent reality of fighting... bwahahaha!!!
Till then, fair thee well and keep in mind that just because something is tactical don't make it true.Don't kid yourself - there is no foolproof method of preventing breaks, sprains, or any other damage. I fought a lot - over a lot of years and never had a sprain or a break.....until one time I did - maybe it was a "perfect storm" hard headed opponent with forward momentum, large relative velocity, a full moon or just a butterfly flapping it's wings in South America, maybe I just threw one bad punch - but even small odds will eventually catch up with you if you roll the dice long enough - you do what you can to stack the deck in your favor but nobody escapes every time. (except in hollywood of course)
You can minimize the probability of damage through bag work and training (I soaked my hands in scalding hot salt water before workouts, a Navy Seal I once knew said "do all your pushups on your fists" ) - but anyone who says "it won't ever happen if you just do XYZ" is blowing smoke - there's simply too much random ???? that can happen in any brawl.
Of course the folks who say boxers can't street fight b/c they always will end up with broken hands are all wet too - the vast majority of the time - if you work out and know how to punch, you won't have problems - it's just that even a .05% chance WILL get ANYONE eventually.
#1 most effective way of preventing broken hands in a street brawl = Don't get in a street Brawl (this one only took me until I was 28 to figure out - lol)
You can minimize the probability of damage through bag work and training (I soaked my hands in scalding hot salt water before workouts, a Navy Seal I once knew said "do all your pushups on your fists" ) - but anyone who says "it won't ever happen if you just do XYZ" is blowing smoke - there's simply too much random ???? that can happen in any brawl.
Of course the folks who say boxers can't street fight b/c they always will end up with broken hands are all wet too - the vast majority of the time - if you work out and know how to punch, you won't have problems - it's just that even a .05% chance WILL get ANYONE eventually.
#1 most effective way of preventing broken hands in a street brawl = Don't get in a street Brawl (this one only took me until I was 28 to figure out - lol)
Ivy Mike
Member
The thing I've learned in my off and on martial arts training is to out think your opponent. This is THE one aspect that is never stressed enough. If you can hit your opponent and start fleeing, you should do it. If he is punching st you the way a boxer would (indicating that he may have had ring time) than don't square up in a boxers crouch. You are only giving him an advantage. Start kicking and biting and gouging. A good boxer will have toughened up his/her hands to the point where most solid hits won't cause too much damage. Damage can still be done...your knuckles aren't forged steel.
Early in KRav Maga training, they taught us to hit hard targets with softer weapons and soft targets with harder weapons. (as stated on the first page) The other thing is that an open palm strike can be just as devastating as a fist if landed properly. It's all about placing your shot...guns, hands, golf balls...shot placement is the key.
Early in KRav Maga training, they taught us to hit hard targets with softer weapons and soft targets with harder weapons. (as stated on the first page) The other thing is that an open palm strike can be just as devastating as a fist if landed properly. It's all about placing your shot...guns, hands, golf balls...shot placement is the key.
Moondancer
Member
Little tidbit - hard taget = soft tool, soft target = hard tool. Having said that, R127 gives a good description of how to punch using knuckles. Hit lots of things, not just people, and only broken knuckles twice, both times 'cause I didn't focus properfly and struck with JUST the middle finger knuckle.
carpettbaggerr
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Thought the best way to avoid broken hands was to hit them with an elbow.
Avoiding the brawl is the best way to avoid injury, period.
This sounds like a recipe for a broken hand to me.
The two knuckle method (index & middle) is the way to go with proper conditioning, ie, knuckle pushups and bouncing knuckle push ups on a hard wood floor- the best way to align the strongest bones in your hand with a straight wrist and arm.
.45&TKD- I can personally attest that the method I've described has held up with me striking someone in their skull as hard as I can hit. Study any old time boxing manual from the bareknuckle days and they recommend the method I describe. I'm not talking about BS theories here, I'm describing methods that have worked for hundreds of years. I'm not trying to be condescending but knuckle pushups and tapping the floor are not the same as a missing a perfect blow by mere inches and shattering the bottom of your hand. I used to use the two knuckle punch in TKD and I almost broke my wrist on a heavy bag because I accidently hit with the wrong two knuckles. Since having bad experience after bad experience with this method, I did some research to see how bareknuckle boxers held a fist. It wasn't the same as we've learned in TKD for sure.
Anatomically, making a fist as I describe lines up the ulna and radius bones. Try this simple test, go find a stud or a doorframe that you can push on. Line up your style of punch, place your knuckles on the surface, and lean into it will all of your might. Feel that wobble? I can bet that your wrist will start to roll to align itself. Now go ahead and make a vertical fist and place the last three knuckles on the wall, try the same exercise. Your wrist won't really want to go anywhere since it is lined up properly.
Anatomically, making a fist as I describe lines up the ulna and radius bones. Try this simple test, go find a stud or a doorframe that you can push on. Line up your style of punch, place your knuckles on the surface, and lean into it will all of your might. Feel that wobble? I can bet that your wrist will start to roll to align itself. Now go ahead and make a vertical fist and place the last three knuckles on the wall, try the same exercise. Your wrist won't really want to go anywhere since it is lined up properly.
themic
Member
i had a bad "boxers fracture." i got into a fight with a door. it won. in fact, it won without ever throwing a punch.
my pinky knuckle was pushing my skin out by about 1 inch.
i'd like to point out that i did NOT use proper two-biggest-knuckle technique. maybe that technique might have broken my hand in more valuable places? i don't know. don't intend to find out.
nor do i intend to fight doors again.
unless they're very very bad. then i'll use an open palm to do it.
my pinky knuckle was pushing my skin out by about 1 inch.
i'd like to point out that i did NOT use proper two-biggest-knuckle technique. maybe that technique might have broken my hand in more valuable places? i don't know. don't intend to find out.
nor do i intend to fight doors again.
unless they're very very bad. then i'll use an open palm to do it.
Daniel Flory- No offense, but I totally disagree. While the 3 knuckle method you describe may work for you, there are people new to unarmed combat on this forum reading this thread that need to know that your 3 knuckle method is in the minority.
The 2 knuckle method of Tae Kwon Do and other hard eastern MA styles is not some "BS Theory". There is as much history with this method as with 19th century bare knuckle boxing (which is not around anymore, I might add). One can see the power of 2 knuckles at any concrete slab breaking demonstration.
I've included a photo of my 2 knuckle tight fist as an example.
I've worked out bare handed on heavy bags for years without injury. But I would again emphasize the importance of conditioning your hands with knuckle push ups and boucning knuckle push ups to make sure you don't impact with the wrong knuckles. Hand grip excercisers are good too.
Open hand techniques are fine, but if my life were on the line, I would go with tight fists all the way. Though, open hand techniques are a great fall back position if you do have a hand injury and can no longer make a tight fist.
The 2 knuckle method of Tae Kwon Do and other hard eastern MA styles is not some "BS Theory". There is as much history with this method as with 19th century bare knuckle boxing (which is not around anymore, I might add). One can see the power of 2 knuckles at any concrete slab breaking demonstration.
I've included a photo of my 2 knuckle tight fist as an example.
I've worked out bare handed on heavy bags for years without injury. But I would again emphasize the importance of conditioning your hands with knuckle push ups and boucning knuckle push ups to make sure you don't impact with the wrong knuckles. Hand grip excercisers are good too.
Open hand techniques are fine, but if my life were on the line, I would go with tight fists all the way. Though, open hand techniques are a great fall back position if you do have a hand injury and can no longer make a tight fist.
The only head strikes i ever learned that involved the use of the traditional fist is a glancing blow to the nose. Which is probably not really "fair" since it can end up pretty nasty for the other guy and he doesnt want to fight anymore, which is kinda the point in my book.
I think a lot of the traditional fist to the head strikes come from a mind-set of "fighting fair" which is just fine and dandy if you fight recreationally or competitively. But, that was never my thing. My objective in a fight has always been to EXIT the fight in as quick a manner as possible with as little injury to myself as can be managed. Fighting to me me involves a lot of elbows, knees and ground fighting. And if someones head gets close enough to something solid (table, chair, floor, wall) then THAT is what im going to be hitting them with.
What i have learned is that TYPICAL punches to the head arent effective enough to warrent the risk of injury. Now i am SURE that there are people out there that could lay out a orangutan with a punch to the noggin, bit that person could also put you into ICU with that same punch to abdomen. Maybe i just have a really solid head but getting punched there never really bothered me all THAT much.
I think a lot of the traditional fist to the head strikes come from a mind-set of "fighting fair" which is just fine and dandy if you fight recreationally or competitively. But, that was never my thing. My objective in a fight has always been to EXIT the fight in as quick a manner as possible with as little injury to myself as can be managed. Fighting to me me involves a lot of elbows, knees and ground fighting. And if someones head gets close enough to something solid (table, chair, floor, wall) then THAT is what im going to be hitting them with.
What i have learned is that TYPICAL punches to the head arent effective enough to warrent the risk of injury. Now i am SURE that there are people out there that could lay out a orangutan with a punch to the noggin, bit that person could also put you into ICU with that same punch to abdomen. Maybe i just have a really solid head but getting punched there never really bothered me all THAT much.
.45&TKD- We can agree to disagree but I'd rather duke it out here to see which fist comes out on top Regarding concrete breaking, nearly any type of fist will do for that, just the middle knuck, biggest two, smallest three, etc. That is because you have a stationary target and no risk of scoring a glancing blow (unless you suck). The bareknuckle boxing type fist comes into its own when you're hitting fist to skull repeatedly at odd angles for multiple strikes. Did you try pushing the wall like I suggested?
Regarding concrete breaking, nearly any type of fist will do for that, just the middle knuck, biggest two, smallest three, etc. That is because you have a stationary target and no risk of scoring a glancing blow (unless you suck). The bareknuckle boxing type fist comes into its own when you're hitting fist to skull repeatedly at odd angles for multiple strikes. Did you try pushing the wall like I suggested?I can support my upper body on my 2 knuckle fists (vertically or horizontally) without my wrists buckling and bounce up and down on a hard wood floor (ie. bouncing knuckle push ups). I'm not sure why you would expect "pushing the wall" to be more difficult.
So you didn't try it. I've at least tried your method...for about 10 years in fact so I know my way around it. Also, I can do pushups and bounce on the ground all day long on the pads of my five fingers, should I try striking faces and ribs with those now too?
Besides, Jack Dempsey recommends using the last three knuckles in his book "Championship Fighting". Not coincidentally, he was also known as the last bareknuckle champ. Personally, I put more faith in bareknuckle boxers than I do people who break roofing tiles or concrete.
Besides, Jack Dempsey recommends using the last three knuckles in his book "Championship Fighting". Not coincidentally, he was also known as the last bareknuckle champ. Personally, I put more faith in bareknuckle boxers than I do people who break roofing tiles or concrete.
I have been in about a dozen fist fights over the course of my life, the last one being about three years ago. I have yet to ever do any more damage to myself than bruising my knuckles in. I suppose it is possible, but I wouldn't worry too much about it.
R127
Member
Daniel Flory, no offense but this is a subject I know something about, both in theory and practice. Besides Dempsey, what "old time boxing manual" ever advocated striking with the bottom 3?
Maybe I am mistaking what you're saying, though. I'm taking "old time" to mean 19th c. and older. There may be a lot of bottom 3 advocacy in the early 20th century, I haven't read much of the material.
Regarding the tired old wall test, if you start trying to hit a target greater or less than 90 degrees straight out from your shoulder, you will have to start compensating, bottom 3 or top 2. Using the wall-logic you would be limited to striking an opponent equal to you in height in the shoulder only, because anything else would be out of alignment. The trick is if you're smart you make that adjustment on your elbow rather than your wrist, your elbow should be slightly flexed anyway, rather than locked out.
If anything I think Keith Myers probably most accurately mirrored the manuals when he was talking about focusing the blow on the center knuckles with an eye towards striking with the whole fist. The general reccomendation was "the large knuckles at the base of the fingers" which I have in the past taken to mean the index and middle since they are by far the largest knuckles on my fists, but most likely refers all four.
As a fellow practioner I would be interested in duking it out, as you say, if that offer was a general invitation. Whereabouts do you stay?
.45&TKD,
The old style boxing, oriented as much for self defense as it ever was for sport, is still around and while it became very rare, probably never really went away, at least not everywhere. The caveat is that like any other martial art the quality of practice varies with the practitioner. What I have generally been seeing since it became sort of popular is of middling quality or worse, often a hodge podge of traditional, modern and Eastern techniques.
Maybe I am mistaking what you're saying, though. I'm taking "old time" to mean 19th c. and older. There may be a lot of bottom 3 advocacy in the early 20th century, I haven't read much of the material.
Regarding the tired old wall test, if you start trying to hit a target greater or less than 90 degrees straight out from your shoulder, you will have to start compensating, bottom 3 or top 2. Using the wall-logic you would be limited to striking an opponent equal to you in height in the shoulder only, because anything else would be out of alignment. The trick is if you're smart you make that adjustment on your elbow rather than your wrist, your elbow should be slightly flexed anyway, rather than locked out.
If anything I think Keith Myers probably most accurately mirrored the manuals when he was talking about focusing the blow on the center knuckles with an eye towards striking with the whole fist. The general reccomendation was "the large knuckles at the base of the fingers" which I have in the past taken to mean the index and middle since they are by far the largest knuckles on my fists, but most likely refers all four.
As a fellow practioner I would be interested in duking it out, as you say, if that offer was a general invitation. Whereabouts do you stay?
.45&TKD,
The old style boxing, oriented as much for self defense as it ever was for sport, is still around and while it became very rare, probably never really went away, at least not everywhere. The caveat is that like any other martial art the quality of practice varies with the practitioner. What I have generally been seeing since it became sort of popular is of middling quality or worse, often a hodge podge of traditional, modern and Eastern techniques.
R127- I'm talking about pre-20th century boxing styles. Just for a few points of reference see:
The lithograph entitled, "'Yankee Doodle' on his muscle"
Also see the alignment of John L. Sullivan's hands:
There is another engraving entitled "John L. Sullivan: Champion Pugilist of the World" by William Edgar Harding that I can't find online. This engraving clearly shows Sullivan's hand position after walloping John Flood.
Those are just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head.
Also, I think you're completely misinterpreting Keith Myers. I think he is just talking about the basic fact that you use the largest knuckles, so basically your first joint. He is only pointing out something that is obvious to most people with martial arts experience. When he says the knuckles at the base of the fingers, he means just that.
The lithograph entitled, "'Yankee Doodle' on his muscle"
Also see the alignment of John L. Sullivan's hands:
There is another engraving entitled "John L. Sullivan: Champion Pugilist of the World" by William Edgar Harding that I can't find online. This engraving clearly shows Sullivan's hand position after walloping John Flood.
Those are just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head.
Also, I think you're completely misinterpreting Keith Myers. I think he is just talking about the basic fact that you use the largest knuckles, so basically your first joint. He is only pointing out something that is obvious to most people with martial arts experience. When he says the knuckles at the base of the fingers, he means just that.
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