BP measuring for 45 colt/45-70

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Proper measuring of Black Powder for Cartridge loading of both 45 Colt and 45-70.

If I have stated anything incorrectly, by all means please correct me. You wont hirt my feelings any.

With BP we measure by volume. I use these little brass measuring devices that have stamped on them various grain volumes. Pics below... I have, 30,35,40,50,60 and 75. I cant seem to find one for 65 and 70. Yes i know i can use combinations for a double drop.

Is their any reason why i couldnt use a deffective piece of 45 colt or 45-70 brass and cut it down to correctly measure 65 and 70 grains???

Is the lyman black powder measure with the 24" drop tube worth the investment to speed up BP cartridge loading?

Whats the easist quickest way to measure 65 and 70 grains?

45 colt i use 30 grains. and that seems to work quickly and easily.
 
Using cut off cases is a perfectly acceptable way to measure (dip) your chosen volume of powder. But volume loading is not mandatory. I weigh charges of BP to know what exactly I'm doing. Once I get a measure set on a charge weight, then it becomes a volume thing. I admit I still go back and check the weight of the charge every so often to be sure of what I'm doing.

Getting the Lyman measure would entirely depend on how much black powder cartridge loading you will be doing.

To get 65 or 70 grains use your brass measure and dump 60g into a powder scale pan, then trickle by hand from one of your cut off cartridge dippers. For what it's worth when I was loading 45-70s with 405g and 500g bullets seated to their normal depth I only got about 61-62 grains of FFg black powder in modern, solid head cases, and that was using a 24" drop tube. I'm told others get a lot more in the 45-70 but I don't know how they do it unless they are seating the bullets out a bit.

I'm loading 32g of FFFg in my 45 Colt cases because of my arthritic hands. Used to love shooting full power 45 Colts but I ain't up to it much any more. (smile)

YMMV,
Dave
 
Dave said it right. I personally use Lyman's BP measure with a drop tube, because I do a great deal of work with BP. But I also have done quite a bit of loading with dippers, both hand made and store bought. For most purposes - handgun cartridges especially - they do the job just fine. With the .45-70 they do the job as well, but with one caveat - if you are looking for the best long range accuracy, you will want to weigh your charges.
 
Is their any reason why i couldn't use a ... 45 colt or 45-70 brass and cut it down to correctly measure 65 and 70 grains???
Not at all. In fact I establish the weight of particular BP granulation/Brand that works best, cut a 45-70 case to match it volumetrically when I pour, and call it a day.
Is the Lyman black powder measure with the 24" drop tube worth the investment?
Yes -- or use any non-ferrous Measure such as the Harrells (that I use) If you can find a real Belding & Mull, that's the cat's meow (but you don't need it)
 
Proper measuring of Black Powder for Cartridge loading of both 45 Colt and 45-70.

If I have stated anything incorrectly, by all means please correct me. You wont hirt my feelings any.

With BP we measure by volume. I use these little brass measuring devices that have stamped on them various grain volumes. Pics below... I have, 30,35,40,50,60 and 75. I cant seem to find one for 65 and 70. Yes i know i can use combinations for a double drop.

Is their any reason why i couldnt use a deffective piece of 45 colt or 45-70 brass and cut it down to correctly measure 65 and 70 grains???

Is the lyman black powder measure with the 24" drop tube worth the investment to speed up BP cartridge loading?

Whats the easist quickest way to measure 65 and 70 grains?

45 colt i use 30 grains. and that seems to work quickly and easily.

If you have any of the Lee dippers the 2.2 is what is pretty commonly used by many shooters for 45 colt and 44wcf. It gives you around 33-34 grains.
 
Howdy

First of all, let's get something straight. Different brands of Black Powders weigh different amounts. It's not like with Smokeless where the manufacturers go to a great effort to make the weight of the powder consistent, so 7.5 grains of Whiz Bang will have the same energy today as a batch made ten years from now. So you can count on using the same data to reload with Smokeless from year to year, pretty much whenever the powder was made. (Yes, occasionally the Smokeless manufacturers will change the recipe a tiny amount, but you can pretty much count on consistency from year to year with any particular Smokeless powder.)

The same is not true of Black Powder. If you are measuring strictly by volume, you WILL get a different weight of powder, depending on what brand and granulation you are using. Here is a chart I made up years ago comparing the actual weight of a few different brands of Black Powder. Notice they are all related to the standard sizes of Lee Dippers. This is probably because the different BP manufacturers use their own process to make their BP, they do not follow any particular standard. The charges I measured were the standard charges I was using for various Black Powder cartridges. Notice how much more Elephant brand (which is no longer made) weighed than the other two brands.

pmhtkUPmj.jpg



Over the centuries the actual formula for Black Powder varied a bit. I have an old explosives textbook that gives the percentages of the three components of Black Powder; Saltpeter (Potassium Nitrate), Charcoal, and Sulfur. The percentages varied quite a bit, but by 1781 the British had settled on 75% Saltpeter, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur. The American Army adopted this formula sometime back around the 1870s or so, the exact date escapes me. Even so, different brands of modern Black Power will vary in their weight and in their power, simply because the components may vary in quality. The better brands off Black Powder today use charcoal made from Buckthorn Alder, I believe Goex is still using charcoal made from willow. How the charcoal is produced will also have an effect on the power of the resultant powder.


Now, having said all that, it really does not matter, unless you are trying to milk the utmost repeatability out of your cartridges, for instance the way the guys in Black Powder Cartridge Rifle competitions do. Those guys are shooting their single shot rifles at targets several hundred yards away, and want to get the utmost accuracy out of their rifles. So they will document everything they are doing, they often requalify their loads when they get powder from a different lot. The same brand, but a different lot. And a lot of those guys weigh their powder down to the last .1 grains, they do not rely on volume alone to portion out their powder.

When I started loading Black Powder cartridges; 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 I was using Lee dippers, as well as some custom dippers made from cut down cartridge cases.

poKuEsqQj.jpg




I will add that my technique for dipping was to scoop the dipper through about 1/2 pound of powder in a ceramic cup. To be as consistent as possible I always scooped with the same motion, just like scooping ice cream our of a pint container. I scooped consistently every time, bringing up a heaping full dipper of powder. I would then skim the excess off with a piece of index card, back into the mug of powder. I never tapped the dipper to settle the powder, that leads to inconsistent charges. I always skimmed the excess off and dumped it directly into the empty brass with a funnel.

pnIp1sjnj.jpg




There is nothing wrong with dipping charges as I have described, I did it for years. The only disadvantage is it is slow. These days I load all the above mentioned cartridges with Black Powder on a Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive press. I have mounted a Lyman Black Powder measure on it for my Black Powder cartridges. The linkage of the press does not activate the powder measure as it does with the standard Smokeless powder measure, I have to remember to flip the handle for each cartridge, which I have gotten pretty good at, knock on wood. And just like with any Smokeless powder measure, I make an effort to throw the handle of the press consistently from cartridge to cartridge, so the loads will be consistent. Throwing the handle with a different amount of force will vary the vibration of the column of powder in the powder measure, which can result in inconsistent loads. No, I am not using a drop tube, the powder goes directly from the powder measure into the cartridges. The purpose of a drop tube is it uses gravity from the powder falling about 24" to pack the powder more densely and more consistently than just pouring it in without a drop tube. For the revolver and lever rifle cartridges I mentioned above, that is plenty good enough for what I am doing. What the powder measure buys me is charging cartridges much more quickly than I could using a dipper on my old single stage press.

plBxPmRdj.jpg




I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them at the white elephant table at a gun show.

pnVlR35qj.jpg




The rotor Lyman puts in their Smokeless powder measures is the same one that is in their Black Powder measure. The actual rotor is brass, so it will not create a mechanical spark rotating in the cast iron body of the measure. I preset these rotors to my standard charges that I use for my different BP cartridges. When I change dies to change calibers, I pop a different rotor into the Black Powder measure so I am all set to load that cartridge with the standard powder charge I use with that cartridge. In order to set the rotors in the first place, I adjust them until they are throwing the WEIGHT of powder I want, according to the chart above.

pnQi4DC0j.jpg




Here is a shot of my Hornady press all set to crank out a couple of hundred Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. Pardon the mess at the back of the bench. I have lined up my brass in loading blocks so I know how many rounds I have loaded, and I have set my bullets out in rows of 5 each. That way, if either a bullet or a piece of brass is left over at the end of the session, I know there is something wrong somewhere.

popugCJej.jpg




Here is a close up of 5 45 Colt cases being loaded on the Hornady press. The level of powder is visible in the case nearest the camera, a bullet is about to get seated and crimped in the next station. The conversion cylinder in the background is my 'cartridge gauge'. It has the most precise chambers of any of my 45 Colt revolvers. Any round that does not drop nicely into one of the chambers of that cylinder will get a little bit of 'extra attention' at the crimping station at the end of the loading session.

plkqiv4rj.jpg




The only time I use a drop tube is when I am loading 45-70 with Black Powder for my Trapdoor or my Sharps. The pistol is only in the photo for sale.

po1oZmESj.jpg




I do not load 45-70 on my progressive press, I load them on my old single stage Lyman Spartan press.

pmvUNpxRj.jpg




I use a compression die to compress the powder in my 45-70 rounds before I seat and crimp the bullet.

pmJdWcRXj.jpg




In my humble opinion, all that extra work is not necessary for my revolver and lever gun Black Powder ammunition.




If you have any of the Lee dippers the 2.2 is what is pretty commonly used by many shooters for 45 colt and 44wcf. It gives you around 33-34 grains.


That is a little bit of an over generalization. Yes, I typically use 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg in my 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges, HOWEVER it depends on how far into the cartridge mouth the base of the bullet extends. I compress the powder by 1/16" - 1/8" when I seat my bullets. With the bullets I use for those two cartridges, 2.2CC gives me the amount of compression I want. But a different bullet design may require a different amount of powder to achieve the amount of compression I want.
 
Last edited:
Well im not shooting BP for any compitition.
Im simply doing it for either plinking or nuisance animal control. 45-70 sometimes hunting. Some private hog hunting farms have had discounts fornhaving BP hunts.

However i do it for the fun and nostalgia of it all.

As long as i am getting a fairly accurate and safe load. Im happy. Im not shooting at great distances. Maybe 50 yards at most. My accuracy on my loads have all been quite adequate.

I started BP with a Canon. Then added a Perdasoli percussion Howdah 20 gauge. then moved to loading 45 colt and 45-70

My next BP gun i want to add as soon as i can find one is a Lemat (replica).

Its actually kinda more fun to hunt nuisance critters on my land with my Howdah then a percision rifle! ;)
 
Howdy

First of all, let's get something straight. Different brands of Black Powders weigh different amounts. It's not like with Smokeless where the manufacturers go to a great effort to make the weight of the powder consistent, so 7.5 grains of Whiz Bang will have the same energy today as a batch made ten years from now. So you can count on using the same data to reload with Smokeless from year to year, pretty much whenever the powder was made. (Yes, occasionally the Smokeless manufacturers will change the recipe a tiny amount, but you can pretty much count on consistency from year to year with any particular Smokeless powder.)

The same is not true of Black Powder. If you are measuring strictly by volume, you WILL get a different weight of powder, depending on what brand and granulation you are using. Here is a chart I made up years ago comparing the actual weight of a few different brands of Black Powder. Notice they are all related to the standard sizes of Lee Dippers. This is probably because the different BP manufacturers use their own process to make their BP, they do not follow any particular standard. The charges I measured were the standard charges I was using for various Black Powder cartridges. Notice how much more Elephant brand (which is no longer made) weighed than the other two brands.

View attachment 936801



Over the centuries the actual formula for Black Powder varied a bit. I have an old explosives textbook that gives the percentages of the three components of Black Powder; Saltpeter (Potassium Nitrate), Charcoal, and Sulfur. The percentages varied quite a bit, but by 1781 the British had settled on 75% Saltpeter, 15% Charcoal, and 10% Sulfur. The American Army adopted this formula sometime back around the 1870s or so, the exact date escapes me. Even so, different brands of modern Black Power will vary in their weight and in their power, simply because the components may vary in quality. The better brands off Black Powder today use charcoal made from Buckthorn Alder, I believe Goex is still using charcoal made from willow. How the charcoal is produced will also have an effect on the power of the resultant powder.


Now, having said all that, it really does not matter, unless you are trying to milk the utmost repeatability out of your cartridges, for instance the way the guys in Black Powder Cartridge Rifle competitions do. Those guys are shooting their single shot rifles at targets several hundred yards away, and want to get the utmost accuracy out of their rifles. So they will document everything they are doing, they often requalify their loads when they get powder from a different lot. The same brand, but a different lot. And a lot of those guys weigh their powder down to the last .1 grains, they do not rely on volume alone to portion out their powder.

When I started loading Black Powder cartridges; 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 I was using Lee dippers, as well as some custom dippers made from cut down cartridge cases.

View attachment 936802




I will add that my technique for dipping was to scoop the dipper through about 1/2 pound of powder in a ceramic cup. To be as consistent as possible I always scooped with the same motion, just like scooping ice cream our of a pint container. I scooped consistently every time, bringing up a heaping full dipper of powder. I would then skim the excess off with a piece of index card, back into the mug of powder. I never tapped the dipper to settle the powder, that leads to inconsistent charges. I always skimmed the excess off and dumped it directly into the empty brass with a funnel.

View attachment 936803




There is nothing wrong with dipping charges as I have described, I did it for years. The only disadvantage is it is slow. These days I load all the above mentioned cartridges with Black Powder on a Hornady Lock & Load AP progressive press. I have mounted a Lyman Black Powder measure on it for my Black Powder cartridges. The linkage of the press does not activate the powder measure as it does with the standard Smokeless powder measure, I have to remember to flip the handle for each cartridge, which I have gotten pretty good at, knock on wood. And just like with any Smokeless powder measure, I make an effort to throw the handle of the press consistently from cartridge to cartridge, so the loads will be consistent. Throwing the handle with a different amount of force will vary the vibration of the column of powder in the powder measure, which can result in inconsistent loads. No, I am not using a drop tube, the powder goes directly from the powder measure into the cartridges. The purpose of a drop tube is it uses gravity from the powder falling about 24" to pack the powder more densely and more consistently than just pouring it in without a drop tube. For the revolver and lever rifle cartridges I mentioned above, that is plenty good enough for what I am doing. What the powder measure buys me is charging cartridges much more quickly than I could using a dipper on my old single stage press.

View attachment 936804




I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them at the white elephant table at a gun show.

View attachment 936805




The rotor Lyman puts in their Smokeless powder measures is the same one that is in their Black Powder measure. The actual rotor is brass, so it will not create a mechanical spark rotating in the cast iron body of the measure. I preset these rotors to my standard charges that I use for my different BP cartridges. When I change dies to change calibers, I pop a different rotor into the Black Powder measure so I am all set to load that cartridge with the standard powder charge I use with that cartridge. In order to set the rotors in the first place, I adjust them until they are throwing the WEIGHT of powder I want, according to the chart above.

View attachment 936806




Here is a shot of my Hornady press all set to crank out a couple of hundred Black Powder 45 Colt cartridges. Pardon the mess at the back of the bench. I have lined up my brass in loading blocks so I know how many rounds I have loaded, and I have set my bullets out in rows of 5 each. That way, if either a bullet or a piece of brass is left over at the end of the session, I know there is something wrong somewhere.

View attachment 936807




Here is a close up of 5 45 Colt cases being loaded on the Hornady press. The level of powder is visible in the case nearest the camera, a bullet is about to get seated and crimped in the next station. The conversion cylinder in the background is my 'cartridge gauge'. It has the most precise chambers of any of my 45 Colt revolvers. Any round that does not drop nicely into one of the chambers of that cylinder will get a little bit of 'extra attention' at the crimping station at the end of the loading session.

View attachment 936808




The only time I use a drop tube is when I am loading 45-70 with Black Powder for my Trapdoor or my Sharps. The pistol is only in the photo for sale.

View attachment 936809




I do not load 45-70 on my progressive press, I load them on my old single stage Lyman Spartan press.

View attachment 936810




I use a compression die to compress the powder in my 45-70 rounds before I seat and crimp the bullet.

View attachment 936811




In my humble opinion, all that extra work is not necessary for my revolver and lever gun Black Powder ammunition.







That is a little bit of an over generalization. Yes, I typically use 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg in my 45 Colt and 44-40 cartridges, HOWEVER it depends on how far into the cartridge mouth the base of the bullet extends. I compress the powder by 1/16" - 1/8" when I seat my bullets. With the bullets I use for those two cartridges, 2.2CC gives me the amount of compression I want. But a different bullet design may require a different amount of powder to achieve the amount of compression I want.

Great write up! Thanks for taking the time!!
 
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